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Is Reverse engineering a Good Option for India?

The reason India has access to these technologies in the first place is because it has integrity. You break that trust and it is unlikily that western nations would be willing to share their secrets. Yes, india is capable of immitating and copying, but why copy when you can recieve ToT and liecsense production? Do you realize how much china spends on trying to copy something that can be easily bought under liecence?
India currently builds many things inhouse under liecense. But why does DRDO try to reinvent the wheel beyond recognition? Because they don't want to be seen as a leech. If that was to happen the Army and the GOI would question they;re very existance as a DESIGN RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT ORGINIZATION. Other wise they'll have to be renamed COPY RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT ORIGIZATION.

You are an idealist, and I respect that. However, that is not how the real work works, case-in-point, China copied Z-8, Z-9 and Z-11 from the Eurocopter and yet it continues to work with AVIC on the EC175/Z-15 project. Because Eurocopter can make more money from component sales. Also China can sell to anyone as it please, that means component of Eurocopter's product can now safely landed at Burma, Iran, African, you name it, without the international spot light point back at them.

I wish the world has more honorable folks like you.






Helicopter Association International - Rotor.com

The EC175, the latest member of the Eurocopter range, today performed its official maiden flight in the skies above Marignane. At the controls were Alain Di Bianca, Eurocopter Experimental Test Pilot, as well as Michel Oswald and Patrick Bremont, Flight Test Engineers. Officials, industrial partners, launch customers and Eurocopter employees were all on hand for the event. This newest addition to the Eurocopter family in the 7-metric-ton class has been developed and manufactured in cooperation with the China Aeronautics Industries Group Corp. (AVIC), a longstanding Eurocopter partner.

"It's an immense pleasure to see the EC175 soaring through the skies," declared Eurocopter CEO Lutz Bertling. "This helicopter was developed in close cooperation with our customers to ensure it would be perfectly suited to their needs—particularly in terms of safety and comfort. This is the product everyone's been waiting for on the civil market. I would like to congratulate and thank our colleagues from China, all our personnel who invested so much time and effort in this project, and, of course, our industrial partners. Their combined efforts have made it possible for the EC175 to perform its maiden flight right on schedule, that’s to say exactly four years after the program was launched, which is a real technological wizardry. "

The new generation EC175 has a multirole design and can carry out a wide scope of civil missions. It slots perfectly into the Eurocopter range between the AS365 Dauphin (4/5 metric tons) and the AS332/EC225 Super Puma (9/11 metric tons) families. It benefits from a mix of proven and advanced technologies, making it a very performing and reliable helicopter. Depending on its configuration, it can hold up to 16 passengers. A total of 114 EC175s have already been ordered by 14 different customers. Certification of the EC175 by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) is slated for 2011, and the first deliveries are scheduled to follow in 2012. Eurocopter expects to sell 800 EC175s over the next twenty years, creating nearly 2000 new direct and indirect jobs.

Cooperation
The EC175 program was launched on December 5, 2005. The helicopter was developed in cooperation with Chinese industry in just four years thanks to innovative new computing tools that offer major time savings. The work teams, separated by some 10,000 km, have been working together under the aegis of the French and Chinese governments. Their cooperation has been exemplary, and has benefitted from 30 years of close ties between the partners, first through the Dauphin and then through the EC120.

During the development phase, an average of 50 Chinese employees joined their Eurocopter colleagues in France to define the helicopter's characteristics. Now it’s the turn of Eurocopter's employees to reciprocate, and a staff of 30 is currently on permanent assignment in China to assist the teams with design, quality, production and procurement work.

The development and industrialization work has been equally split between Eurocopter and AVIC according to the specialties of each company. Two different helicopters will result from the common platform: The EC175 manufactured, sold and maintained by Eurocopter in Marignane and the Z15, manufactured, sold and maintained by the AVIC Group.

Missions
The EC175 is a medium-lift twin-engine helicopter that can perform many different civil missions. Initially designed for the oil & gas industry to carry work teams to the platforms, it meets the strictest safety and availability requirements that have become a must for operators in the industry.

The helicopter is also being developed for missions such as search and rescue and emergency medical transport, and can also meet the needs of the commercial aviation industry for VIP and corporate transport.

Technical characteristics
The EC175 benefits from the most cutting-edge technology available. It is powered by twin Pratt & Whitney PT6C-67E engines with dual-channel new generation Full Authority Digital Engine Controls (FADEC). With its completely new avionics, the EC175 has an effective and easy-to-use man machine interface, which considerably reduces the pilot workload. Both the pilot and co-pilot can therefore concentrate more fully on their missions. The EC175 is indeed equipped with a full screen cockpit and a digital four-axis Automatic Flight Control System (AFCS) that outperforms any other automatic pilot system on the market. It also has a five-blade Spheriflex main rotor and an airframe that complies with the most stringent certification requirements.

The EC175 offers the widest cabin of any helicopter in its category, which provides an unmatched level of comfort. The aircraft can be boarded easily using the wide sliding doors on either side of the fuselage and the immense baggage compartment is also accessible from both sides of the helicopter. All very large windows offer a great visibility and can be jettisoned so that passengers and crew can quickly exit the helicopter in the event of an emergency.

The EC175 has also been designed to reduce vibration levels to a minimum; its blade design has taken forward the concepts that have proven so successful on the EC155 and EC225. Special care has been taken to reduce both internal and external noise levels to make the EC175 the quietest helicopter in its class, offering levels well below the limits recently established by the International Civil Aviation Organization.

About Eurocopter
Established in 1992, the Franco-German-Spanish Eurocopter Group is a Division of EADS, a world leader in aerospace, defence and related services. The Eurocopter Group employs approx. 15,600 people. In 2008, Eurocopter confirmed its position as the world’s No. 1 helicopter manufacturer in the civil and parapublic market, with a turnover of 4.5 billion Euros, orders for 715 new helicopters, and a 53 percent market share in the civil and parapublic sectors.

Overall, the Group’s products account for 30 percent of the total world helicopter fleet. Its strong worldwide presence is ensured by its 18 subsidiaries on five continents, along with a dense network of distributors, certified agents and maintenance centres. More than 10,000 Eurocopter helicopters are currently in service with over 2,800 customers in more than 140 countries. Eurocopter offers the largest civil and military helicopter range in the world.
 
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India would love to reverse engineer a f-18 . f-35 . they would get only one aircraft of each - f-35, f-16, su-30, su-47, fa-18, eurofighter , rafaele etc. amd make a big fleet.

duhastmish, I agree with Jatt. The reason India has western tech flowing in is because we are increasingly being seen as a scrupulous and safe destination for intellectual property.

The day we break that fragile trust (there are trillions of dollars at stake), is the day that flow will dry to a trickle and then stop altogether.

You may manage to copy and bulk manufacture one of the planes mentioned above (going on past performance, its a big "may"). But that puts paid to your hopes of getting the next generation offering ..... and your own boffins are then all you would need to rely upon.

Are we anywhere close to being in a position of doing that?

That is the calculated risk a nation needs to take when national security is at risk.

Also China with its secretive bamboo curtain and absolute veil upon veil of secrecy has advantages over India which due to it democratic free nature is an open book in comparison ..... for anyone to have a look and know what's going on.

Illegal reverse engineering makes you a global tech pariah ..... not self-reliant. You will always be reliant on the next toy to copy ..... and how to get your hands on it this time around.

To become truly self reliant, one needs homegrown pure research, building infrastructure, top quality technical education, and retention of the top talent within the country by providing incentives and a conducive environment.

Cheers, Doc
 
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Doc

Reverse engineering is not a zero sum game. if privacy is such an issue, why western companies pump billions of USD into China on a yearly basis much greater than India?

IP should be respected and I am not argue that, I am just being a devil's advocate
 
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^^^ I agree.

"Reverse engineering" something without permission from the innovator, while it is still within its intellectual property protection period, is commonly called copying ..... or piracy ..... or counterfreiting ..... or stealing ..... or industrial espionage.

It has wide ranging repercussions for the guilty country in the global market.

Much better to grow organically but ethically ..... than be known as a nation of ripoffs and sniggered at behind ones back.

Over the long run, India will see a lot more tech transfer from the West for this very reason ..... and contract manufacturing ..... and licensed joint ventures/partnerships.

Yes, ethical/legal reverse engineering has an important role to play in our country's development in industries like the Pharma/Biotech sector ..... when really expensive Western patented drugs go off patent ..... and Indian companies can then develop off-patent generics/biosimilars at a fraction of the cost ..... not just for India ..... but like the company I am part of ..... for more than 160 countries around the world.

And THAT is something one can be truly and righteously PROUD of!

Cheers, Doc

there is a big difference between reverse engineering and breaking a patent. Drugs are patented, its formula is made public so its violating a patent. Defence weapons are trade secreats. As secrets, people do not have access to how to manufacture it. So reverse engineer is not against the law. Not in the US or any othre country that I know of.
 
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xinhui, no one does anything for free.

The world recognises China as beyond the control of international courts for IP protection etc.

Many many companies have set up shop in China only to wrap up and come home with horror stories about the way things run there.

Once bitten twice shy .... and the word goes around.

So the world recognises that if China has managed to make a copy illegally (and it is to their technical credit that they pull it off .... no two ways about it) there is really nothing much they can do about it except grumble and moan and tighten the screws on future negotiations and through the various myriad webs of international business and finance and politics.

And they obviously look at ways to offset such losses by using China to their advantage ..... while have learned their lessons well in terms of safeguarding their technology.

That is the billions of USD being pumped into China ..... with their cheap labour being too attractve to resist ...... to make something that has either already been copied, or that is no big loss once (and not "if") it is copied ...... with the patent protected shelf life of a product measured in terms of the first batch run ..... with ROI following similar scheduled timelines.

Cheers, Doc
 
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there is a big difference between reverse engineering and breaking a patent. Drugs are patented, its formula is made public so its violating a patent. Defence weapons are trade secreats. As secrets, people do not have access to how to manufacture it. So reverse engineer is not against the law. Not in the US or any othre country that I know of.

My friend, I don't know which industry you belong to, but making drugs is not as simple as reading out a recipe, tossing in the correct ingredients in the right quantities, and stirring the broth up to come up with your "own" batch of grandma's chocolate chip cookies .....

Cheers, Doc
 
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duhastmish, I agree with Jatt. The reason India has western tech flowing in is because we are increasingly being seen as a scrupulous and safe destination for intellectual property.

The day we break that fragile trust (there are trillions of dollars at stake), is the day that flow will dry to a trickle and then stop altogether.

You may manage to copy and bulk manufacture one of the planes mentioned above (going on past performance, its a big "may"). But that puts paid to your hopes of getting the next generation offering ..... and your own boffins are then all you would need to rely upon.

Are we anywhere close to being in a position of doing that?

That is the calculated risk a nation needs to take when national security is at risk.

Also China with its secretive bamboo curtain and absolute veil upon veil of secrecy has advantages over India which due to it democratic free nature is an open book in comparison ..... for anyone to have a look and know what's going on.

Illegal reverse engineering makes you a global tech pariah ..... not self-reliant. You will always be reliant on the next toy to copy ..... and how to get your hands on it this time around.

To become truly self reliant, one needs homegrown pure research, building infrastructure, top quality technical education, and retention of the top talent within the country by providing incentives and a conducive environment.

Cheers, Doc

Hiya doc,

brother i was just tryign to say - the reverse engineering is not child's play , if it was so easy we could reverse engineer them all make a new fighter from taking best component from each like -

Russian airframe , american engine , European avionics and indian price tag.

yeh - we can not just copy paste it - and that's not what reverse engineering means- its more like dissection, you understand the work process and that might help you in your own research and development.

india lack alot because of the loop hole, Everybody know where they are - no need to crib about them all the time. yes things are changing so - yes in future if one can understand the know how from certain - programme by reverse engineering that will be awesome . there is no harm in it.

so here reverse engineering is understanding the process ( more like case study or research) and makign your product by your own development.
:cheers:
 
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xinhui, no one does anything for free.

The world recognises China as beyond the control of international courts for IP protection etc.

Many many companies have set up shop in China only to wrap up and come home with horror stories about the way things run there.

Once bitten twice shy .... and the word goes around.

So the world recognises that if China has managed to make a copy illegally (and it is to their technical credit that they pull it off .... no two ways about it) there is really nothing much they can do about it except grumble and moan and tighten the screws on future negotiations and through the various myriad webs of international business and finance and politics.

And they obviously look at ways to offset such losses by using China to their advantage ..... while have learned their lessons well in terms of safeguarding their technology.

That is the billions of USD being pumped into China ..... with their cheap labour being too attractve to resist ...... to make something that has either already been copied, or that is no big loss once (and not "if") it is copied ...... with the patent protected shelf life of a product measured in terms of the first batch run ..... with ROI following similar scheduled timelines.

Cheers, Doc

there are certain Chinese firms that do make illegal copies of software, music and movies. And that is copy right enfringement. If China produce a product by breaking someone's patent, patent violation. However, defence products are not patented or copy writed. They are trade secrets. As such, they can be legally reverse engineered. Its up to the capability of the engineers to reverse engineer.
 
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My friend, I don't know which industry you belong to, but making drugs is not as simple as reading out a recipe, tossing in the correct ingredients in the right quantities, and stirring the broth up to come up with your "own" batch of grandma's chocolate chip cookies .....

Cheers, Doc

I know, but patented means the process is public.. the process is patented. cheer.
 
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Hiya doc,

brother i was just tryign to say - the reverse engineering is not child's play , if it was so easy we could reverse engineer them all make a new fighter from taking best component from each like -

Russian airframe , american engine , European avionics and indian price tag.

yeh - we can not just copy paste it - and that's not what reverse engineering means- its more like dissection, you understand the work process and that might help you in your own research and development.

india lack alot because of the loop hole, Everybody know where they are - no need to crib about them all the time. yes things are changing so - yes in future if one can understand the know how from certain - programme by reverse engineering that will be awesome . there is no harm in it.

so here reverse engineering is understanding the process ( more like case study or research) and makign your product by your own development.
:cheers:

With India's capability of reverse engineering, its useless to purchase tot as India is incapable of improving upon the transfered technology. Incapable means that once india can reversed engineered a technology, the technology is obsolete.
 
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What will China do when they noticed that somebody is reverse engineering the products they sold.
 
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With India's capability of reverse engineering, its useless to purchase tot as India is incapable of improving upon the transfered technology. Incapable means that once india can reversed engineered a technology, the technology is obsolete.

I totally agree- , that's why whole world says china have made copies of 60's weapons of united states and Russian.

reverse technology is not the right wya to go prodcution but yeh dissection and then fueling your own rearch and development is the way to go.

:cheers:
 
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I totally agree- , that's why whole world says china have made copies of 60's weapons of united states and Russian.

reverse technology is not the right wya to go prodcution but yeh dissection and then fueling your own rearch and development is the way to go.

:cheers:

China had the ability to improve upon whatever it copied on certain areas of technology such as J-11B. That is why others won't sell China the latest technology because China can copy and improve upon it. This is especially true between Russia and China as the technology gap between these two countries are not that big and its decreasing with time. china can now copy and improve with Russian technology with a variety of weapons.
 
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What will China do when they noticed that somebody is reverse engineering the products they sold.

Eventually, others will.

And China cannot do anything about it because its not against the law or international rules.
 
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