Is Pakistani principally a race or ideology?

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Thank you. I don't always agree with you but I certainly respect your articulate posts. I saw this thread and could not but indulge myself. I guess we all have addictive propensities.

Thank you sir, it means a lot.

I joined the forum due to reading your posts and those of now-banned Indus Priest King.

Even though I consider myself a religious nationalist, I still subscribe wholeheartedly to the philosophy that we are one basic qawm (nation) based on our history: IVC, Iranic nomad settlement, and Islamic dynasties era.

For this task, people like you are needed more than ever to remind us of our prehistoric origins and the geographical self-contained area which we descend from.

The beauty of Pakistan is in many different aspects and it is holistic in nature. This is why foreigners are mind-blown when they discover the hidden gem of a country which Pakistan is.

There were a lot achakzai type Sindhi politicians in past and and for pashtuns achakzai asfand wali etc Baloch hasil bizenjo khair bakhsh marri etc only in Punjab there aren't any ethnic politicians and all of these politicians failed due to Pakistan army

The people abandoned ethnic supremacist ideologies in favor of one unified state based on Islamic unity and also our shared history (pre-Islamic and post-Islamic.)

We say in every street of Pakistan, “hum sirf Khuda ke Rahmat se mahfooz he.” There is an undercurrent of spirituality in the very idea of Pakistan, it’s foundation, perseverance, and continued rejuvenation.

We have a special place in the eyes of the Almighty Parve digar. There is simply no other explanation for the difficulties which we have survived as a qawm/nation.

If most Pakistani online and in real life acted like both of you we would not sound like a divided nation the Ganghus are better united in the diaspora with one voice lockstep sadly Pakistanis abroad fight each other over petty stuff instead of slinging stupid phrases like mullah,libtard etc we should work together and wish the best for a prosperous Pakistan

Yes, until we realize that only a Pakistani will only ever understand, empathize with, and fully support another Pakistani, we will be the playthings of all others.

I love our Turkish brothers and sisters and have a soft spot for our Chinese friends, but Pakistan and Kashmir is in the periphery of their thought, whereas for us, it is pretty immediate.

Feb 27 proved that there may very well come a time when we will have to defend ourselves independently, without open support of allies, against a conglomeration of India and its anti-Muslim allies.

 

[Crusher]

This is the dance which people do here at weddings and other celebrations and the only type of dance i can do

only the boy in middle in white shalwar qameez is doing correctly

and ever watched this type of dance

I think people in Jhang, Chinyot and Pindhi Bhattian are very talented folk dancers both in Luddi and Jhoomar/Dharees. Even the children in the above videos have far better sense of Luddi dance and rhythm than an average adult from my city Gujranwala, we are just bad with the folk dances. One thing I have noticed is that our Luddi dance is more similiar to Luddi dance of Gujrat, Pothohar and neighboring southern parts of Azad Kashmir.

Our Luddi dance on weddings in Gujranwala is something similar to the following video with the same Dhol beat, I think it is standard in Pothohar, southern parts of Azad Kashmir, Gujrat and Gujranwala weddings. Look how chaotic they dance , that is exactly what I observe in Gujranwala Wedding Luddi dance,

Ideas alone can't do anything like there is a sindhudesh idea in Sindh but they don't have resources to implement the idea only thing which is keeping Pakistan united is Pakistan army that's why every separatist and ethnic nationalist hates army

Absolutely agree with you the only thing that is uniting Pakistan is "not some kind of so-called ideology" but the "might of our army/military soldiers", that is why I always support them (though criticize them at times also) because I know without them there will be no "united Pakistan", they provide the only "binding force" for a multi-ethnic country like Pakistan.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

So I was having this discussion in my family, and the topic came up.

To give you a background, I am from the USA and we have a large Pakistani origin population which neither speak any Pakistani tongues, know about our history, care about Pakistani politics, nor self-identify as Pakistani.

So would such persons be identified as Pakistani even if they want nothing to do with Pakistan, and choose instead either to identify only as Muslims or only as Americans (Canadians, Australians, British, Europeans etc.)

Although the concept of a (Muslim) homeland along the Indus/Sindh River is a much older concept, Pakistan was first conceived by our founders as a place where Muslims/Non-Muslims of our region can live in peace, practice our faith, and work on achieving a model nation which promotes equality, freedom, and brotherhood for all its citizens.

The two nation theory and the movement for Pakistan were definitely ideologies and one had to ascribe to them to be part of the Pakistan movement.

After independence, Pakistan and Pakistanis began being treated as an ethnic and racial group by Non-Muslim countries. For example the hateful epithet ‘Paaki’ is racial in design, and not at all ideological.

Sometime after 2000s, Pakistanis, esp in America, began to distance themselves from their country of origin and ascribe to the term ‘Desi,’ whose meaning was changed to incorporate Indians and Bengalis. Desi originally is a term only for Pakistanis (Des, Pardes) or Pakistani products (Desi egg, ghee, chickens, etc.)

So we have a whole generation of descendants of Pakistanis in the diaspora who have no connection or desire to associate with Pakistan. They grew up intentionally avoiding Pakistani languages, Pakistani immigrants (besides relatives,) many have intermarried with people of Non-Pakistani origin, and they have no concept of the history/struggle/politics of the Pakistani homeland.

There is no doubt that Pakistani is now a robust and strong nationality, which has gained a new lease on life thanks to PTI and Pakistani military, however besides this the question needs to be asked.

Is Pakistani a racial, ethnic identity or is it an ideological choice?

For those who do not care for Pakistan (new generation of the diaspora) and those who actively fight against our state (like Husain Haqqani, Altaf Hussain, Rehman Khan, etc.,) are they Pakistanis?

We are a civilization. We reclaimed our lands on the basis of an ideology, but as you peel through the skin, it is the Indus civilization which is our building block.

 

[B.K.N]

I think people in Jhang, Chinyot and Pindhi Bhattian are very talented folk dancers

These videos at YouTube aren't the best there are very good dancers here but people usually don't make videos these things were more popular in past Jhang Chiniot are similar but not sure about Pindi bhattian but language wise Jhang Sahiwal Chiniot Khanewal are very similar

Absolutely agree with you the only thing that is uniting Pakistan is "not some kind of so-called ideology" but the "might of our army/military soldiers", that is why I always support them (though criticize them at times also) because I know without them there will be no "united Pakistan".

It's true for most if not all countries like Pakistan was militarily weaker in east Pakistan and no ideology worked there because there are a lot of ideologies but the ideology which have resources military strength etc rules or wins

 

[Azadkashmir]

I'm all right mate. Kashmir is my Pakistan. God willing, i will visit it.
I just wait for the collapse of Iranian mafia, i'm hopeful to see it happening soon.

you be happy to meet joker in kashmir and that is no joke.

 

[Vortex]

Instead havong asked if we are a race or an ideology, the correct question which should have been asked is "what is our identity ?

After 70 years of existence we still seem being in fog about it.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

You do know that exactly 13 months before birth of Pakistan, Jinnah actually agreed to the Cabinet Mission Plan in July 1946. So much for the grand idea or ideology. This tells us that as long as Muslims had constitutional parity within a united India everything was cool. Whither Pakistan?

@Pan-Islamic-Pakistan Sorry but your post has so many contradictions and holes that I will leave it for another time to address.

Every idea is born out of mere necessity. The biggest liars among us humans are those who deliver new ideas in situations where no new idea is needed. These people are often racists in Europe and radicals in the Middle East trying to lure entire nations into chaos.

Working on existing ideas and situations is the primal step for every good and sane leader. What Jinnah tried was to avoid the necessity of a new idea which is what you're describing and criticizing. But what makes him great is the fact that he was able to see that time had come for a new idea and he changed his course
because it had become a necessity.

From this perspective, your criticism becomes void. Pakistan wasn't needed as long as the Muslims of South Asia had a representation and a say. Pakistan was never his second option, it was his only option and the end of a thoughtful process. And he knew how to seize the chance.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Instead havong asked if we are a race or an ideology, the correct question which should have been asked is "what is our identity ?

After 70 years of existence we still seem being in fog about it.

I don’t think so. It is obvious that there are two camps of thought in relation to Pakistani identity.

Religious and Non-religious camps in Pakistan have different views about the origin of the country and what is the solution to our troubles.

It begins even with our leaders: Quaid e Azam and Allama Iqbal.

Secular types harp on Quaid’s secular lifestyle and speeches, ignoring the religious aspects, and they tend to neglect Allama Iqbal’s works.

Religious types view Quaid as a mureed of Allama Iqbal and wholly invested in his thought, regardless of the secular parts of Quaid’s speeches.

It is the tale of two Pakistans.

Under PTI, both have a say but it is apparent the religious aspect is very close to Imran Khan and takes precedence.

 

[Vortex]

That question becomes even more confusing when you read that founder of Pakistan, Jinnah was a Gujarati from India who called himself proud Indian until 1940s.

Same for Allama Punjabi and Liyakat Ali Haryanvi.

Then the geography is not what makes our identity.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Wouldn't say a race. But a collection of different ethnicities trying to forge a new identity based on a set of principle.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

That question becomes even more confusing when you read that founder of Pakistan, Jinnah was a Gujarati from India who called himself proud Indian until 1940s.

Same for Allama Punjabi and Liyakat Ali Haryanvi.

You are manipulating facts for your own objectives.

Even in the early days of Islam, it was never the ethnicity nor the race of a person which made him a pious Muslim and loyal to the Prophet Muhammad saws, but only the intentions and actions of a person.

Pakistan owes a debt to people from as far as Arabia, Persia, Turkey, Afghanistan, UK (Quaid and Allama Iqbal,) Germany (Leopold Weiss/Muhammad Assad,) and many other places for its state.

Pakistan is a frame of mind, it is the embodiment of Islam, and continuation of the Muslim project on Islam’s borderland in Asia.

 

[Hamza913]

i am just stating the truth that founder of your country claimed to be proud Indian and fought for the independence of India until he realized that Nehru is going to outsmart him and he must do something to leave his own legacy

No, what happened was he realised Muslims would not be treated fairly in a united India (and he was proven right), so he decided to create Pakistan instead.

being a Luvana by caste

Of course, being a Hindu, you have to bring up caste, something which is wholly irrelevant to the character of the man.

quid was a Gujarati

His paternal lineage were Rajputs who originally came from Sahiwal, in the Punjab.

 

[Kabira]

Pakistan isn't a race. Though since majority of population have lived in same region for thousands of years that mean they are not far off genetically from each other.

i am just stating the truth that founder of your country claimed to be proud Indian and fought for the independence of India until he realized that Nehru is going to outsmart him and he must do something to leave his own legacy, being a Luvana by caste he did what he had to do.

quid was a Gujarati, he himself claims to be one and spoke Gujarati besides English only, he didn't know Hindi or Urdu until his last days and he only gave interviews and wrote letters in either English or Gujarati. before he left for his creation he visited his village and his house just like he did many times after settling down in Mumbai.

Karachi, Mumbai etc were settled by Gujaratis after British created those cities as their new economic centers, it was British who promoted Gujarati immigration to these cities to make cities more successful. i am from same district as Jinnah and my Grandfather have brothers who were born in Karachi as a big chunk of his own family moved there while rest of the family moved in Mumbai, Africa, Burma and UK.

Since you mentioned Jinnah caste. Lohanas are Sindhis/Seraiki speakers that moved to Kutch/Gujarat not long ago. Technically speaking they are more like Sindhis then Gujjus genetically. The indigenous gujaratis are masses like patels etc

 

[B.K.N]

he was a luvana, luvanas are similar to Baniyas

No one cares who he was we just know he was founder of Pakistan or bani e Pakistan and that's enough for us
not interested in knowing an old man's shajra e nasb who died 70 years ago

 

[B.K.N]

that's nice but its funny and ironic to me.

Pakistanis hate Baniyas but their country's founder was a Baniya.

Ab Kya founder badal lain khair Mera bas chalay to badal bhi lain gay