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Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

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The cag reports clearly state the blunders of HAL,,,,man why are u heel bent on defending the indefensible?
Your rafale argument may have some suitors but who will support HAL??

wanglaokan said:
HAL never fail, it's your stubbourn mind.
Click to expand...

I AGREE.........MINDSET NEEDS TO CHANGE

iF I STILL HAVE TO PROVE THAT HAL IS A FAILURE THEN I THINK SOMETHING IS WRONG SOMEWHERE.
 
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sardar1987 said:
Indian made but by actual indian products,not 90% foreign components
HAL has been a complete failure apart from assembling stuff and it dosen't warrant even new contracts



Sure close this thread and go about ur usual indian chest thumping and ignore the glaring mistakes.....be my guest
Click to expand...

You have just been proven wrong on all counts of the Rafale as a choice in the MMRCA. now keep your peace.
 
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sardar1987 said:
I AM OUT OF HERE.................can't deal with old souls here,and don't forget to vote for ur favourite congress party that will put nationalize even more companies producing more psu's like hal and making u very happy and proud
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No content, No Class, just hot gas.... It is ignorant people like you who claim HAL just assembles aircrafts malign the reputation of organisation are a bane for the country. If your so called assembly was such a simple task every country in the world would be doing so, wouldn't they.

your 90% rants I have been tolerating for a while now. Just like I wont complain eating a grilled salmon because it was imprted from alaska, you and neither the comtroller general can complain if pre-preg CRFP has to be imported from france, and avionics need to imported becuase HAL didn't dee a dime of the precious research money that your beloved congress kept pouring down the tatra trucks.

As I said people like you who have half baked information, and are arrogant to a level that not willing to a have civil discourse do not deserve any meaningful response from any senior members of the forum.

that's it, I'm out!
 
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sandy_3126 said:
No content, No Class, just hot gas.... It is ignorant people like you who claim HAL just assembles aircrafts malign the reputation of organisation are a bane for the country. If your so called assembly was such a simple task every country in the world would be doing so, wouldn't they.

your 90% rants I have been tolerating for a while now. Just like I wont complain eating a grilled salmon because it was imprted from alaska, you and neither the comtroller general can complain if pre-preg CRFP has to be imported from france, and avionics need to imported becuase HAL didn't dee a dime of the precious research money that your beloved congress kept pouring down the tatra trucks.

As I said people like you who have half baked information, and are arrogant to a level that not willing to a have civil discourse do not deserve any meaningful response from any senior members of the forum.

that's it, I'm out!
Click to expand...

COMING FROM A GUY DEFENDING HAL............WOW
I based all my arguments on cag reports

did u post even one component made by hal??
nooooooooo

so just keep quiet and wait for ur pension as hal will give u that

As for members living in denial........senior or junior,,,,,,just accept the truth

Read the damn cag reports to know the truth urself
http://www.cag.gov.in/

u will find all audit reports here
apart from this rest all arguments are just bullshit

sandy_3126 said:
No content, No Class, just hot gas.... It is ignorant people like you who claim HAL just assembles aircrafts malign the reputation of organisation are a bane for the country. If your so called assembly was such a simple task every country in the world would be doing so, wouldn't they.

your 90% rants I have been tolerating for a while now. Just like I wont complain eating a grilled salmon because it was imprted from alaska, you and neither the comtroller general can complain if pre-preg CRFP has to be imported from france, and avionics need to imported becuase HAL didn't dee a dime of the precious research money that your beloved congress kept pouring down the tatra trucks.

As I said people like you who have half baked information, and are arrogant to a level that not willing to a have civil discourse do not deserve any meaningful response from any senior members of the forum.

that's it, I'm out!
Click to expand...


half baked information my ***................first of all leave ur bias towards hal at home

compare hal to any global company and see where it stands..............its a chai-biscuit organization like drdo
 
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Now save ur face.......lets see

Ministry of defence's desi projects under CAG fire - India - DNA

cag raps hindustan aeronautics limited for radio sets : latest news, information, pictures, articles

HAL sold choppers below cost price - Indian Express

http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home...e/2010_2011/Commercial/Report_no_10/chap3.pdf

CAG raps Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd for Rs 43 crore excess payment as incentives - Economic Times

Despite CAG rap, HAL ups Su-30 production - Times Of India

CAG report slams HAL for sending defective choppers to air show - Brahmand.com

Now save ur face.......lets see

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/1872051/report-ministry-of-defence-s-desi-projects-under-cag-fire

http://post.jagran.com/search/cag-raps-hindustan-aeronautics-limited-for-radio-sets

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/hal-sold-choppers-below-cost-price/1153404/

http://saiindia.gov.in/english/home/Our_Products/Audit_report/Government_Wise/union_audit/recent_reports/union_performance/2010_2011/Commercial/Report_no_10/chap3.pdf

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-09-04/news/33581963_1_excess-payment-cag-today-prp

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2006-07-14/india/27820389_1_30mkis-potent-fighter-air-to-air-refuelling

http://www.brahmand.com/news/CAG-report-slams-HAL-for-sending-defective-choppers-to-air-show/1748/1/18.html
 
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well every buisness has a simple rule demand and supply here we are talking of nation defence and potential threat and thats very very serious buisness

Threats in the coming & next decade

1.PLAAF will have at least 500 copies of SU series with ASEA and latest EW suites looking at chinas manufacturing and now the amount they are spending on R&D i think they are catching up pretty fast not to forget there reverse engenieering capability which is second to none

2.PLAAF will have 3 diffenernt types of 5th gen planes in huge numbers all with ASEA and other things

3.PAF will have 150 JF17s + 18 + 60 F 16 in the coming decade and maybe china will give a couple of squads of J10Bs to it aswell and dont rule owt latest saudi & UAE fighter planes in case of war

IAF

IAF will have 60 M2K Ugrds with latest wepons and equal nos of MIG29 Upgrds with 100 Jags , 150 Bisons & 270 MKIs with MLUs

now OWR needs to counter PLAAF & PAF

we need atleast need 200 5th gen & some 200 4.5 gen planes with very good strike cpability as arial threats will be countered by the SU 30 MKIs

but we cant afford a 100 million $s + plane with a tiny radar but great spectra as within 3-5 years every one will be offering ame or better products at much cheaper rates among which israelies and russians will certainli do something great so we need basicalli a strike plane with great avionikcks both of which can be handeled by SU 35 as it will have ASEA too and we can always do what we did to SU-30 and it saves a lot on maintauinence infra and owr industry can absorb it very easily too as we are already producing MKIs.........for rafale we have to make new assembly , new supply chain , new maintainence & overhauling facilities we have bassically for russian ones

and by the end of the decade FGFA will start coming in so please tell me rafale lovers what does it gives us as french have made it clear that they wong give FULL TOT on SPECTRA , ASEA radar & Engines and they are right too why should they so my question is why should we go for another 4.5 gen platfrom when we will have 5th gen platform at the same price at almost the same time why not invest in natural successor of SU 30 and a few (60-80) F 16s of latest block with US wepons and other stuff
 
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A G 1046 said:
well every buisness has a simple rule demand and supply here we are talking of nation defence and potential threat and thats very very serious buisness

Threats in the coming & next decade

1.PLAAF will have at least 500 copies of SU series with ASEA and latest EW suites looking at chinas manufacturing and now the amount they are spending on R&D i think they are catching up pretty fast not to forget there reverse engenieering capability which is second to none

2.PLAAF will have 3 diffenernt types of 5th gen planes in huge numbers all with ASEA and other things

3.PAF will have 150 JF17s + 18 + 60 F 16 in the coming decade and maybe china will give a couple of squads of J10Bs to it aswell and dont rule owt latest saudi & UAE fighter planes in case of war

IAF

IAF will have 60 M2K Ugrds with latest wepons and equal nos of MIG29 Upgrds with 100 Jags , 150 Bisons & 270 MKIs with MLUs

now OWR needs to counter PLAAF & PAF

we need atleast need 200 5th gen & some 200 4.5 gen planes with very good strike cpability as arial threats will be countered by the SU 30 MKIs

but we cant afford a 100 million $s + plane with a tiny radar but great spectra as within 3-5 years every one will be offering ame or better products at much cheaper rates among which israelies and russians will certainli do something great so we need basicalli a strike plane with great avionikcks both of which can be handeled by SU 35 as it will have ASEA too and we can always do what we did to SU-30 and it saves a lot on maintauinence infra and owr industry can absorb it very easily too as we are already producing MKIs.........for rafale we have to make new assembly , new supply chain , new maintainence & overhauling facilities we have bassically for russian ones

and by the end of the decade FGFA will start coming in so please tell me rafale lovers what does it gives us as french have made it clear that they wong give FULL TOT on SPECTRA , ASEA radar & Engines and they are right too why should they so my question is why should we go for another 4.5 gen platfrom when we will have 5th gen platform at the same price at almost the same time why not invest in natural successor of SU 30 and a few (60-80) F 16s of latest block with US wepons and other stuff
Click to expand...

so 189 Rafales, 200 FGFA, 300+ SU30MKI(Upgraded to SU 37 Cobra),70 Mig29UPG,60 Tejas,60 MIRAGE 2000-MK2,etc with full AESA/PESA integration is so bad eh?

By even 2020 PAF won't get close to 120 JF17. They tapered it off at 40 ~ 50 nos for now.

RBE2 AESA does against 3 m2 target a range of 260-280km. It can track 40 targets at a single time and use PESA in a creepy hunter stealthy mode.

China has made a hybrid ESA platform for j10b. As far as I know, in as recent as 2013, block production was scrapped for more J10As.
 
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Raffale lovers should give up hope of getting Raffale. India wasted 10 years with MMRCA tamasha. It is too late and too expensive for poor country like India. The greater indigenisation should be encouraged instead of buying expensive toys. I will not surprise if deal is not signed even in 2020. Don't waste your time in this stupid debate.
 
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sardar1987 said:
We will not start inducting rafale before 2018 so pakfa seems a better idea to me,as instead of bringing rafale to equation,why not go for 250-300 pakfa only,especially if they cost the same??pls answer
Click to expand...

I don't think cost-benefit analysis is the only controller of this decision. Lots of internal and external interests are at play. I fail to see why MMRCA took unrealistically long and after finalizing one platform, it is still not being finalized. IMHO, here problem is not lack of intellect or sense.. it is present of ill-intent inside the equation of National interest. What you are saying might be in the best interest of India but not in the best interest of Indians who have power to decide. But - I may well be wrong.
 
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wanglaokan said:
I think Rafale is a better choice than Grippen, cause India already had LCA. Besides, France has fully owned intellectual property of Rafale. IAF made the right choice, the problem pertaining to how much India could learn through Rafale induction. I think Spectra, AESA radar, Engine will be excluded from the TOT negotioation.
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as 'Total tech transfer' it is just a term thrown around, nobody will provide that not even the Russians. With the Rafale the most important thing is getting full source codes, the Gripen uses too many parts subject to US approval. Rafale on the other hand does not have any ITAR restrictions which is another positive for India which even the Eurofighter does not. France is a strategic partner for India unlike liberal Sweden which has some issues in respect to global human rights etc, France will also reinvest a huge chunk of the MRCA contract back into India as per the tender requirements.

I would agree with you that the Rafale meets our needs the most but with the economy in such a bad shape can we now afford to sign it in the next 12-18 months? I am not so sure
 
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