Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[sardar1987]

I don't think cost-benefit analysis is the only controller of this decision. Lots of internal and external interests are at play. I fail to see why MMRCA took unrealistically long and after finalizing one platform, it is still not being finalized. IMHO, here problem is not lack of intellect or sense.. it is present of ill-intent inside the equation of National interest. What you are saying might be in the best interest of India but not in the best interest of Indians who have power to decide. But - I may well be wrong.

No one can say that inducting 4-5 diff types of platforms is better than concentrating on only 2 or 3.
If yes then tell me any country trying to so many things at the same time

1)buying rafale
2)making pakfaejas
3)tejas
4)su-30(ongoing)
5)amca------------drawing board

Isn't this utterly stupid??
3)t

 

[sardar1987]

There is no such thing as 'Total tech transfer' it is just a term thrown around, nobody will provide that not even the Russians. With the Rafale the most important thing is getting full source codes, the Gripen uses too many parts subject to US approval. Rafale on the other hand does not have any ITAR restrictions which is another positive for India which even the Eurofighter does not. France is a strategic partner for India unlike liberal Sweden which has some issues in respect to global human rights etc, France will also reinvest a huge chunk of the MRCA contract back into India as per the tender requirements.

I would agree with you that the Rafale meets our needs the most but with the economy in such a bad shape can we now afford to sign it in the next 12-18 months? I am not so sure

Buddy we ought to speed up pakfa and induct it along with russians starting 2016,,,,and this whole tamasha must end
Those internet warriors recommending rafale here even now haven't read newspapers in years or just don't live in india to understand situation here

1)deel closed its indian operations yesterday

2)nokia has signalled to shift base to vietnam,growth is like 4.8%

3)we have become net importers of steel,iron ore,bauxite....u name it

4)cad is expanding,debt is rising

And these ppl want that we should keep on working on 4-5 platforms simultaneously,,,,when the navy too is planning a splurge with new submarines

Money is short and be wise,just to make france happy we cannot commit suicide

 

[sardar1987]

so 189 Rafales, 200 FGFA, 300+ SU30MKI(Upgraded to SU 37 Cobra),70 Mig29UPG,60 Tejas,60 MIRAGE 2000-MK2,etc with full AESA/PESA integration is so bad eh?

By even 2020 PAF won't get close to 120 JF17. They tapered it off at 40 ~ 50 nos for now.

RBE2 AESA does against 3 m2 target a range of 260-280km. It can track 40 targets at a single time and use PESA in a creepy hunter stealthy mode.

China has made a hybrid ESA platform for j10b. As far as I know, in as recent as 2013, block production was scrapped for more J10As.

First of all where is ur claim of rbe2aa stats coming from??care to explain?dassault dosen't give any figures
Secondly the numbers u are suggesting will be reached in 2030 like period,not even then..................what will happen when we have to retire 350+ planes after 2018(mig 21 and 27)??

Will u fight war with 18-20 rafales and like 20 -30 lca(if even that occurs) with 272 mki??

The problem???

Can u disprove the numbers i just gave u?u can't as this is the reality,,btw i gave u 1 squadron of rafale extra as by 2018 only delivery of rafale will start if deal is signed next year(if)

 

[sardar1987]

First of all where is ur claim of rbe2aa stats coming from??care to explain?dassault dosen't give any figures
Secondly the numbers u are suggesting will be reached in 2030 like period,not even then..................what will happen when we have to retire 350+ planes after 2018(mig 21 and 27)??

Will u fight war with 18-20 rafales and like 20 -30 lca(if even that occurs) with 272 mki??

The problem???

Can u disprove the numbers i just gave u?u can't as this is the reality,,btw i gave u 1 squadron of rafale extra as by 2018 only delivery of rafale will start if deal is signed next year(if)

1)Mirages have a lowly rdy-3 pulse doppler radar (yes upgarded ones)........rdy-2 i think
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/customer-support/mirage-2000/system-characteristics/

2)mig -29 smt/k have just zhuk-m pulse doppler radar and won't be upgraded at all

3)The famed su-30 radar is just a weak pesa with peak output of only 6.5 kw(compare with irbis-e of su-35 with 18kw peak power)

4)rbe2aa is very small with only 800-100 t/r modules and a fixed plate design severely restricting the coverage


Check ur facts before posting man........lets be rational.peace

 

[Yeti]

Buddy we ought to speed up pakfa and induct it along with russians starting 2016,,,,and this whole tamasha must end
Those internet warriors recommending rafale here even now haven't read newspapers in years or just don't live in india to understand situation here

1)deel closed its indian operations yesterday

2)nokia has signalled to shift base to vietnam,growth is like 4.8%

3)we have become net importers of steel,iron ore,bauxite....u name it

4)cad is expanding,debt is rising

And these ppl want that we should keep on working on 4-5 platforms simultaneously,,,,when the navy too is planning a splurge with new submarines

Money is short and be wise,just to make france happy we cannot commit suicide

The engines for PAK-FA and our version will only come into fruition after 2020, Russia has just started working on the next gen engines now. The issue my friend is that China is not waiting around they have undertaken a massive modernisation of their armed forces in particular the air force with huge numbers of fighters, we can not compete in sheer numbers with them so we must adopt a asymmetric warfare approach. That is where the Rafale comes into play, it will complement the heavier SU-30 MKI and the lighter LCA and give us the 42 squadrons we need to maintain a competitive edge in the region and ward of any threat we might face from either China or Pakistan.

 

[sardar1987]

The engines for PAK-FA and our version will only come into fruition after 2020, Russia has just started working on the next gen engines now. The issue my friend is that China is not waiting around they have undertaken a massive modernisation of their armed forces in particular the air force with huge numbers of fighters, we can not compete in sheer numbers with them so we must adopt a asymmetric warfare approach. That is where the Rafale comes into play, it will complement the heavier SU-30 MKI and the lighter LCA and give us the 42 squadrons we need to maintain a competitive edge in the region and ward of any threat we might face from either China or Pakistan.

But thats exactly my point,,,rafale cannot start coming before 2018!!!
and why not accept early pakfa with slightly weaker engines??

if u wanna even call product 117 ....152 kn engine even that??

 

[Yeti]

But thats exactly my point,,,rafale cannot start coming before 2018!!!
and why not accept early pakfa with slightly weaker engines??

if u wanna even call product 117 ....152 kn engine even that??

5th gen fighters are not cheap to maintain nor to buy in the first place, plus this deal is also about our domestic military industry. We must remember part of the MRCA tender is that the winner will reinvest a huge sum of that contract back into India and there will be tie-ups with many Indian firms also.

The PAK-FA is a heavy air superiority fighter although it can do other roles it was designed for this but the Rafale is a omnirole fighter which can switch roles easily as proven in the recent conflict in Libya, this is why it is the best choice for India and will complement the heavier SU30 MKI's. Also French Avionics is world class, I would argue the Russians are not on that level yet in the short term at least.

 

[graphican]

No one can say that inducting 4-5 diff types of platforms is better than concentrating on only 2 or 3.
If yes then tell me any country trying to so many things at the same time

1)buying rafale
2)making pakfaejas
3)tejas
4)su-30(ongoing)
5)amca------------drawing board

Isn't this utterly stupid??
3)t

We hope countries learn from their mistakes. Indian maintenance record is already at the lower side of world standards.. with that in mind and the variation they are keeping.. its going to be a maintenance nightmare. In the list, you didn't mention

- Mig-29s (in service)
- Hunters (looking to upgrade)
- Biasons (would retire)
- Miraj (in service)

With 8 (ignoring Biasons) aircraft types, you need at least 8 maintenance units at every second airbase or India would have to specify domains within its own airspace where few aircraft types can operate and are maintained. Not to mention keeping 8 game books, 8 training pipelines and coming up with mix-strategies where different combinations can work together to supplement each other.

 

[sardar1987]

We hope countries learn from their mistakes. Indian maintenance record is already at the lower side of world standards.. with that in mind and the variation they are keeping.. its going to be a maintenance nightmare. In the list, you didn't mention

- Mig-29s
- Hunters
- Biasons
- Miraj

With 9 aircrafts types, you need 9 maintenance units at every second airbase or India would have to specify domains within its own airspace where few aircraft types can operates.

You are definitely right......i did't mention them as i am covering only the things we are making or are gonna make.I didn't even include maintainance!!

Even pakistan is bound to suffer like us if they don't privatize as u can make jf-17 under tot but state agencies can never do any good research and china is out of question because of communist nature.It can simply enforce laws better as ppl have no choice,here in our countries labour unions will stop working the moment they are told their mistakes!!

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

Ok i like that u are giving good arguments,better than surya kiran atleast....hear me out

1)pakfa will enter service in 2016
New T-50 Fighter Jet to Enter Service in 2016

2)the only big change between pakfa and fgfa is that instead of product 117 engine,it gets product 30
But each product 117 engine is itself 2 times the 2 puny rafale engines put together(laughable i mean),,,,so even this amount of thrust is very good

3)The rafale deal even if signed in 2014 will start delivery in 2017 only and not 2016 as the delivery starts 3 years after signing

4)Why go for 2 diff platforms at the same time??When the timeframe of these products is almost similar?No one can justify that as our economy is not that big and we have to focus on priotities and we have a jv in pakfa and hence its a priority.

5)The pakfa has 4 x-band aesa,2 l-band aesa along with other things,,,,its radars are better than rafale's...............the only thing better in rafale is spectra but its not worth this much!!

6)As u know amca has already been stalled and lca is just gonna be delayed again(u will see)........kaveri is in limbo.......no indigenous avionics......no other noteworthy air to air missile!!

So we are not china that we can invest in 3 diff projects
For india with a defence budget of only 40 billion or so we have to balance our money and certainly i think pakfa is enough for china and an overkill for pakistan so i ask again??

WHY RAFALE??

Even if pakfa production starts in 2018 it will be at the same time as rafale so why rafale??
Can HAL handle 3 diff fighters??
a)pakfa.......done deal,cannot be changed
b)lca mk 1 and 2.................cannot be left to die
c)rafale................the only deal not signed yet

The answer is simply NO..........it cannot handle 3 diff types of fighters from 3 diff agencies??can u counter this last argument?



No man 850 is very small as take into huge nose of j-20.......pls think china,,it will def have a huge aesa radar with atleast 1500 modules and a fixed plate 850 modules aesa radar against a .001m2 or lower target will bring our defeat,nothing else

You need to understand few things. unlike rafale, Pak-FA is a heavy class bird,
Specifications looks impressive, but it's thrust to weight ratio that matters and rafale holds excellent of it.


Things looks simple on paper , but Modern air combat are complex in nature, EW is a important part of it. french comes with different way of utilizing and incorporating such technologies in a platform, it is something Israeli's or Russians can't offer you. i believe IAF Professionals know what they are doing. keep exploring, goodday.

 

[sardar1987]

5th gen fighters are not cheap to maintain nor to buy in the first place, plus this deal is also about our domestic military industry. We must remember part of the MRCA tender is that the winner will reinvest a huge sum of that contract back into India and there will be tie-ups with many Indian firms also.

The PAK-FA is a heavy air superiority fighter although it can do other roles it was designed for this but the Rafale is a omnirole fighter which can switch roles easily as proven in the recent conflict in Libya, this is why it is the best choice for India and will complement the heavier SU30 MKI's. Also French Avionics is world class, I would argue the Russians are not on that level yet in the short term at least.

The biggest question is about air to ground role and mate let me tell u when pakfa gets that n050 RADAR it will be an excellent a to g fighter but yes its a plus point of rafale

The libya fight is a joke,we have to factor china and pakistan here who have more than a few stinger missiles and i tell u once again..................rafale is just too costly considering
1)weak engine
2)small radar with fixed plate
3)no stealth

So we are essentially paying for spectra and and maws only

Btw i am convinced on rafale's ability as a whole had the deal been signed 2-3 years ago.Now the delivery will start in like 2018 and spectra will not be exclusive to rafale(bound to happen man,other companies are not so foolish)

So u can upgrade any fighter with a new rwr and maws but can u

1)increase radar size?
2)engine power?

indian fgfa will have 5 aesa radars and product 30 engine producing 176 kn each!!! and they too will cost in the same category
If u wanna spend 100 million at least get a fifth generation

You need to understand few things. unlike rafale, Pak-FA is a heavy class bird,
Specifications looks impressive, but it's thrust to weight ratio that matters and rafale holds excellent of it.


Things looks simple on paper , but Modern air combat are complex in nature, EW is a important part of it. french comes with different way of utilizing and incorporating such technologies in a platform, it is something Israeli's or Russians can't offer you. i believe IAF Professionals know what they are doing. keep exploring, goodday.

CHECK THE T/W OF PAKFA................

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

Ok post me the link where it says they will give to tech for single crystal blade??

What blades do al-31f use??just asking

as for pakfa

http://paralay.com/pakfa/t50 (21).jpg




And pls do tell the rcs of pakfa from that picture

These RCS values can be very misleading.
An aircraft is very complex. It has many reflecting elements and shapes. The RCS varies significantly depending upon the direction, range and power of the illuminating radar. even if i keep aside other factors like phase differences, polarization, and material type etc.

CHECK THE T/W OF PAKFA................

i am well aware of developments with 1st hand experience.

 

[sardar1987]

These RCS values can be very misleading.
An aircraft is very complex. It has many reflecting elements and shapes. The RCS varies significantly depending upon the direction, range and power of the illuminating radar. even if i keep aside other factors like phase differences, polarization, and material type etc.



i am well aware of developments with 1st hand experience.

But yaar this figure must mean something,no?? i really have no clue so am asking

 

[Anurag Rathore]

We hope countries learn from their mistakes. Indian maintenance record is already at the lower side of world standards.. with that in mind and the variation they are keeping.. its going to be a maintenance nightmare. In the list, you didn't mention

- Mig-29s (in service)
- Hunters (looking to upgrade)
- Biasons (would retire)
- Miraj (in service)

With 8 (ignoring Biasons) aircraft types, you need at least 8 maintenance units at every second airbase or India would have to specify domains within its own airspace where few aircraft types can operate and are maintained. Not to mention keeping 8 game books, 8 training pipelines and coming up with mix-strategies where different combinations can work together to supplement each other.

miraj

The biggest question is about air to ground role and mate let me tell u when pakfa gets that n050 RADAR it will be an excellent a to g fighter but yes its a plus point of rafale

The libya fight is a joke,we have to factor china and pakistan here who have more than a few stinger missiles and i tell u once again..................rafale is just too costly considering
1)weak engine
2)small radar with fixed plate
3)no stealth

So we are essentially paying for spectra and and maws only

Btw i am convinced on rafale's ability as a whole had the deal been signed 2-3 years ago.Now the delivery will start in like 2018 and spectra will not be exclusive to rafale(bound to happen man,other companies are not so foolish)

So u can upgrade any fighter with a new rwr and maws but can u

1)increase radar size?
2)engine power?

indian fgfa will have 5 aesa radars and product 30 engine producing 176 kn each!!! and they too will cost in the same category
If u wanna spend 100 million at least get a fifth generation



CHECK THE T/W OF PAKFA................

agreed till that time get mig 35 or su 35

 

[sardar1987]

miraj

bhaisaab kya miraj aapka koi rishtedar hai??

on a funny note i would really like

1)sardar missile

2)rathore bomb

3)miraj fighter

4)khan tank

5)aggrawal destroyer

6)sharma awacs

7)ali mines

just to give u some examples