Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[surya kiran]

Oh ho i wrote i will write again,forget about other things...................just read

1)pakfa will enter service in 2016
New T-50 Fighter Jet to Enter Service in 2016

2)the only big change between pakfa and fgfa is that instead of product 117 engine,it gets product 30
But each product 117 engine is itself 2 times the 2 puny rafale engines put together(laughable i mean),,,,so even this amount of thrust is very good

3)The rafale deal even if signed in 2014 will start delivery in 2017 only and not 2016 as the delivery starts 3 years after signing

4)Why go for 2 diff platforms at the same time??When the timeframe of these products is almost similar?No one can justify that as our economy is not that big and we have to focus on priotities and we have a jv in pakfa and hence its a priority.

5)The pakfa has 4 x-band aesa,2 l-band aesa along with other things,,,,its radars are better than rafale's...............the only thing better in rafale is spectra but its not worth this much!!

6)As u know amca has already been stalled and lca is just gonna be delayed again(u will see)........kaveri is in limbo.......no indigenous avionics......no other noteworthy air to air missile!!

So we are not china that we can invest in 3 diff projects
For india with a defence budget of only 40 billion or so we have to balance our money and certainly i think pakfa is enough for china and an overkill for pakistan so i ask again??

WHY RAFALE??

Even if pakfa production starts in 2018 it will be at the same time as rafale so why rafale??
Can HAL handle 3 diff fighters??
a)pakfa.......done deal,cannot be changed
b)lca mk 1 and 2.................cannot be left to die
c)rafale................the only deal not signed yet

The answer is simply NO..........it cannot handle 3 diff types of fighters from 3 diff agencies??can u counter this last argument?

You are again comparing the PakFA to the Rafale?????

Ok. I had already commented on this earlier. The FGFA is not expected to join before 2022. The current induction date is 2022 expect it to be 2025. So everything else you are saying is out of the window? What do you want to for the next 15 years?

For your question on can HAL handle, let me let an expert handle it. @sandy_3126 answer that.

 

[sardar1987]

You are again comparing the PakFA to the Rafale?????

Ok. I had already commented on this earlier. The FGFA is not expected to join before 2022. The current induction date is 2022 expect it to be 2025. So everything else you are saying is out of the window? What do you want to for the next 15 years?

For your question on can HAL handle, let me let an expert handle it. @sandy_3126 answer that.

i mean forget hal i doubt any agency can handle it??

 

[vK_man]

yes, it was wrong choice.Why even buy these aircraft in an age where ballistic and ground launched cruise missiles (GLCM) can accomplish the objectives for a much lower price.

 

[surya kiran]

i mean forget hal i doubt any agency can handle it??

Let sandy answer. He is ex HAL.

 

[sardar1987]

i mean forget hal i doubt any agency can handle it??

Just get the russian version of pakfa.........whats wrong in it??
induction starts in 2016
Only limitation is engine but as already told those product 117 are comparable to f119...............so why be so greedy for product 30?

 

[Super Falcon]

what other option they have either EF and Mig 35 was better contanders

 

[surya kiran]

Just get the russian version of pakfa.........whats wrong in it??
induction starts in 2016
Only limitation is engine but as already told those product 117 are comparable to f119...............so why be so greedy for product 30?

No my friend. Its not 2016. Its earliest induction date in the IAF is 2022 By 2016 we won't even have the 3rd prototype

 

[sardar1987]

what other option they have either EF and Mig 35 was better contanders

No man mig-35 is not good enough..........ef typhoon is equally pricey(maybe even more),,,,,,,pakfa is best choice till we reach fgfa level after 2022

No my friend. Its not 2016. Its earliest induction date in the IAF is 2022 By 2016 we won't even have the 3rd prototype

I know that but russia is starting serial production of their version in 2016 only.............all i am saying is why not we join them too??
We can make it an mki version even in 2016........no?only engine is the problem but as already stated its pretty good too

pls read

The 117 (AL-41F1) is a new 5th generation engine custom built for Russia’s fifth-generation stealth fighter jet PAK-FA according to Sukhoi General Director Mikhail Pogosyan. Mikhail Pogosyan has clarified that claims that fifth-generation fighter allegedly has an old engine are wrong. Such claims are made by people with limited knowledge, he said. Though most parameters of the new 5th Gen Engine remains classified General Director Mikhail Pogosyan provided some information on the new engine, The engine thrust was enlarged by 2.5 tonnes when compared with the AL-31 engine, while the engine weight was cut by 150 kilograms. That allowed the new jet to supercruise i.e. move at a supersonic cruise speed without the use of after burner.[14]

The Saturn Research and Production center made digitally controlled system (FADEC) of Project 117 Engine.The new engine produces 33,000 lbs (147 kN) of thrust in afterburner has a Dry weight of 1420 kilogram and T:W ratio of 10.5:1.[15]

Mikhail Pogosyan further mentioned that this engine (117) meets the client’s (Russian AirForce) requirements. This is not an intermediate product made particularly for test flights. The engine will be installed in production PAK-FA fighter which will be supplied to the Russian Air Force and prospective foreign clients.[16]

Bench testing of a radically new engine (the second stage) for the Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft PAK FA will start in 2014, said the general designer-director of the Scientific and Technical Center "Saturn", Eugeny Marchuk "The engine will be ready in two years, and will begin bench testing then", said Marchuk at the 11th International Conference" Aviation and Space - 2012 ", which opened at the Moscow Aviation Institute. According to him, the new "engine 117" will belong to the "5 +" generation and its characteristics will be superior to the existing foreign counterparts engine for fifth generation aircraft. "This is - a fundamentally new engine, The motor unit weight is 30% less (than the 117C - approx.), Life-cycle costs will by 30% less, and it should be cheaper,

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

The answer is simply NO..........it cannot handle 3 diff types of fighters from 3 diff agencies??can u counter this last argument? * * No man 850 is very small as take into huge nose of j-20.......pls think china,,it will def have a huge aesa radar with atleast 1500 modules and a fixed plate 850 modules aesa radar against a .001m2 or lower target will bring our defeat,nothing else

1)Think from the time of starting point of mrca, at that time t50 was on preliminary stages only, we wanted a medium weight multi role fighter, then whole mrca procurement got delayed, and now looking from 2013 we have another option pakfa, but it's a developing platform, 2016 is just a expected date of starting the production,there could be delays just like any fighter jet development programme, we don't have squadron numbers so we need quick induction with multiple production line,so we will have LCA,Rafale,pakfa one squadron each per year, relevant countries will provide assistance,manufacture of important components,etc. 2)every platform is placed at different time frames or originally intended and expected to be ready in a timeframe. mrca got delayed delivery dates reached the expected time frame of pakfa, pakfa could also get delayed during development,tech or price negotiations etc.in fact pakfa would have delayed more if India stick to the first plan of two seat version with air frame modifications and goodies.so we abandoned original plans to avoid greater delays. 3) Rafale is not the counter for j20, pakfa is, that's why India wants a more capable 5gen jet with good engine, avionics,weapons etc so don't expect a fully developed pakfa before 2020. Rafale is counter for existing 4.5 gen jets and for ground strike role and it is fully capable of that role.Rafale can detect any 4.5 gen jet well beyond it's weapon rangeI. Rafale provides an option of non Russian platform and weapons also. 4) at the point of starting mrca was the available option, not t50, since we can't predict future we choose to go ahead with what is available, it was a right decision at that period of time, today we many think that pakfa is near but can't cancel the procurement, we will loose our credibility. 2017- one squadron of Rafale 2018- first batch of Russian version of pakfa. 2020- Indian version of pakfa(if engine is ready by that time) by that time *we will have 3 squadron of Rafale,new Rafale upgrades including radar upgrades will be ready.

 

[surya kiran]

I know that but russia is starting serial production of their version in 2016 only.............all i am saying is why not we join them too??
We can make it an mki version even in 2016........no?only engine is the problem but as already stated its pretty good too

MKI-ing is what will take time. And that's the reason for the prototypes being delivered. The final prototype for the MKI-ing will arrive in 2017. Each component has to be tested and approved. The only option which is not available is to get the PAK FA and then operate them while the MKI-ing happens. But, this is not on the table.

 

[sardar1987]

The answer is simply NO..........it cannot handle 3 diff types of fighters from 3 diff agencies??can u counter this last argument? * * No man 850 is very small as take into huge nose of j-20.......pls think china,,it will def have a huge aesa radar with atleast 1500 modules and a fixed plate 850 modules aesa radar against a .001m2 or lower target will bring our defeat,nothing else

1)Think from the time of starting point of mrca, at that time t50 was on preliminary stages only, we wanted a medium weight multi role fighter, then whole mrca procurement got delayed, and now looking from 2013 we have another option pakfa, but it's a developing platform, 2016 is just a expected date of starting the production,there could be delays just like any fighter jet development programme, we don't have squadron numbers so we need quick induction with multiple production line,so we will have LCA,Rafale,pakfa one squadron each per year, relevant countries will provide assistance,manufacture of important components,etc. 2)every platform is placed at different time frames or originally intended and expected to be ready in a timeframe. mrca got delayed delivery dates reached the expected time frame of pakfa, pakfa could also get delayed during development,tech or price negotiations etc.in fact pakfa would have delayed more if India stick to the first plan of two seat version with air frame modifications and goodies.so we abandoned original plans to avoid greater delays. 3) Rafale is not the counter for j20, pakfa is, that's why India wants a more capable 5gen jet with good engine, avionics,weapons etc so don't expect a fully developed pakfa before 2020. Rafale is counter for existing 4.5 gen jets and for ground strike role and it is fully capable of that role.Rafale can detect any 4.5 gen jet well beyond it's weapon rangeI. Rafale provides an option of non Russian platform and weapons also. 4) at the point of starting mrca was the available option, not t50, since we can't predict future we choose to go ahead with what is available, it was a right decision at that period of time, today we many think that pakfa is near but can't cancel the procurement, we will loose our credibility. 2017- one squadron of Rafale 2018- first batch of Russian version of pakfa. 2020- Indian version of pakfa(if engine is ready by that time) by that time *we will have 3 squadron of Rafale,new Rafale upgrades including radar upgrades will be ready.[/QUOTE]

I like ur arguments man but at least i was thinking for india's interest
Cancelling deal is actually very diff for us now............virtually impossible but govt made a mess out of simple thing

1)Deal should have been signed last year with deliveries starting 2015
Now we are atleast 3 years late and mark my words,,,,,,will be further late

a)govt is short of cash right now,so it will delay the production from the hal's side after the 18 flyaway rafales come
b)we have to spare 5.5 billion for pakfa too but it seems we are late there too
c)tejas mk1 and 2 still require investments
d)amca is on drawing board too(i have no hopes left for it though)

 

[sardar1987]

MKI-ing is what will take time. And that's the reason for the prototypes being delivered. The final prototype for the MKI-ing will arrive in 2017. Each component has to be tested and approved. The only option which is not available is to get the PAK FA and then operate them while the MKI-ing happens. But, this is not on the table.

That is just wrong!!
Why will each component testing take so much time??

1)radar will be from russia only

2)other things like irst,laser range finders,rwr and maws may be procured.................what else??

rest all is russian............mission computers will be same as has been stated by russia and the radar will use elbrus 2+ and elbrus 4 chips

Elbrus-2C+ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a flawed plan as right now hal should be producing a prototype and why the hell 3 diff prototypes after 3 years each???

 

[sardar1987]

Just start making prototypes now!!!They have already built 4 and are on a verge of making the fifth and HAL is busy in chai-biscuit politics here??

How the hell is this a jv,,,,bullshit..........its like procuring rafale,no diff at all

 

[surya kiran]

1)Deal should have been signed last year with deliveries starting 2015
Now we are atleast 3 years late and mark my words,,,,,,will be further late

The delay happened due to multiple reasons, not just the GoI. Had Dassault agreed initially with HAL instead of trying to move more business towards Reliance it would have happened sooner.


a)govt is short of cash right now,so it will delay the production from the hal's side after the 18 flyaway rafales come
These allocations are pre-defined.

b)we have to spare 5.5 billion for pakfa too but it seems we are late there too
Again its pre-allocated.

c)tejas mk1 and 2 still require investments
Produce the 40 planes and get on with it. I will not be surprised if the mark 2 is also produced in 40 numbers and then another 40 to replace the earlier once and its then offered only for export. The navy also gets 50 odd.

d)amca is on drawing board too(i have no hopes left for it though)
The AMCA is very much on. On a serious note, it makes more sense to start work on this post 2017. That's when the IAF test pilots will have experience with a 5th generation figher when they are working onthe prototype ofthe FGFA.

So we should look at serious work on the AMCA to start sometime in 2018.

That is just wrong!!
Why will each component testing take so much time??

1)radar will be from russia only

2)other things like irst,laser range finders,rwr and maws may be procured.................what else??

rest all is russian............mission computers will be same as has been stated by russia and the radar will use elbrus 2+ and elbrus 4 chips

Elbrus-2C+ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is a flawed plan as right now hal should be producing a prototype and why the hell 3 diff prototypes after 3 years each???

Its not a plug and play every component has to be certified. Its a war machine.

Now, I hope you will agree with the Dasault choice? There is no FGFA. There is no Su-35.

 

[sardar1987]

1)Deal should have been signed last year with deliveries starting 2015
Now we are atleast 3 years late and mark my words,,,,,,will be further late

The delay happened due to multiple reasons, not just the GoI. Had Dassault agreed initially with HAL instead of trying to move more business towards Reliance it would have happened sooner.


a)govt is short of cash right now,so it will delay the production from the hal's side after the 18 flyaway rafales come
These allocations are pre-defined.

b)we have to spare 5.5 billion for pakfa too but it seems we are late there too
Again its pre-allocated.

c)tejas mk1 and 2 still require investments
Produce the 40 planes and get on with it. I will not be surprised if the mark 2 is also produced in 40 numbers and then another 40 to replace the earlier once and its then offered only for export. The navy also gets 50 odd.

d)amca is on drawing board too(i have no hopes left for it though)
The AMCA is very much on. On a serious note, it makes more sense to start work on this post 2017. That's when the IAF test pilots will have experience with a 5th generation figher when they are working onthe prototype ofthe FGFA.

So we should look at serious work on the AMCA to start sometime in 2018.



Its not a plug and play every component has to be certified. Its a war machine.

1)Amca is definitely in limbo

2)tejas was supposed to get ioc-2 this year end,it won't get it(track record of hal)

3)And all i am saying is that we should atleast start radar trials like russians


Our whole assumption of getting fgfa in 2022 was

1)Rafale delivery will start in 2015 and by 2022 we will have a sizable number...........assumption was good but as usual delayed

2)We will milk russia for the final mature version with b beastly engine(product 30)...........again wise thinking(chanakyan thinking)

3)lca will be produced serially from like 2012 onwards and with rate of prosuction of 12 per year we will move on ti mk2 in 2015-16......................very good thinking but where is lca??answer------will get foc in 2014 end ,start mass production in 2015

AWESOME..................RIGHT

And consider that we are to etire all mig-21 in 2018.,,,,i think even mig-27 too

It would be safe to assume that we have been serially fucked by the trio of govt,iaf and hal and now we are in so much pain that we don't care anymore for more *******