Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[Sergi]

seriously the guy challanged me with rcs figure,,,,,,,i quoted this and he tells me its impossible to tell rcs from figures

and how the hell is he sure about rafale rcs??reading aviation magazines!!
Either prove something,contribute to something or don't abuse ppl with words like newbie etc

You have serious comprehension problems even when I quote you with my original post
Let me prove it to you
- what did I say. RCS reduction doesn't help to much for 4/4.5 gen as they use weapons on external hard points. So when you were comparing Su-35 against Rafael - both come with RAM coats and both use weapons externally means lower the size lower the RCS. But you seem to be missing some part to understand that. Then you surprisingly bring PAK-FA in discussion which use weapons in internal bays - so obviously rafael and Su-35 isn't match for it.

And forget about reading magazines you cant even read the posts. And what are you ??? Aeronautical engineer ???

And again I am not abusing because you are newbie. That was because you are ignorant and missing a rational mind.
- you claim Su-35 will beat Rafael but did you prove it ??? You say it again and again and what you give ??? The AESA specifications ???

- Lastly I really wana see the one genius whi can calculate RCS from those figures.

do u knw what they are called-fanboys

And what are you ?? Aeronautical engineer in LM ???

Man they know nothing m telling u....these guys are joker they troll everywhere

Watch your mouth kid. You are one and the same thing. Don't make me say it.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Its a lie as provided in the link.............t/r modules can be easily counted and u are free to count,from any picture if i may say!!

your link also says that it could be a early model.
Rafale sources says it's around 1000t/r modules, and even if it's 800+ it will be more than enough to detect other jets well before it's own weapon range, so that will be good enough considering it's passive detection abilities also.

 

[sardar1987]

mmrca was to be signed long back, but we are still waiting, so when looking from that point of time t50 picture was not clear, even now 2016 is a expected date, it's a developing platform,there is no guarantee that there will not be any delay,first preference would be Russian air force, so India most likely will have to wait few more years to have our production line, pakfa needs to counter j20 so we need better avionics, avionics has been a weakness of Russia, so I believe we are improving that part with our contributions in the programme, by the time of 2018-2020 new pakfa engine will also be ready, so India will most likely go for that version directly.
Rafale is a ready product, we will start induction by 2016-2017, we can't say we are cancelling mrca because we are now going for x,y,z platform, that will affect the credibility of whole nation.
2)question of research funds, sure we need to invest more in indigenous research and products, I prefer joint ventures rather than purely indigenous products to avoid technological bottle necks and timely results.in the category of fighter let we already have LCA for iaf as well as navy, MOD ordered our defence researchers to hold AMCA to make sure the timely completion of LCA. so in fighter jet category we have enough indigenous programmes.as far as engine development is concerned I don't think funds was the problem, it was technological problems.

Ok i like that u are giving good arguments,better than surya kiran atleast....hear me out

1)pakfa will enter service in 2016
New T-50 Fighter Jet to Enter Service in 2016

2)the only big change between pakfa and fgfa is that instead of product 117 engine,it gets product 30
But each product 117 engine is itself 2 times the 2 puny rafale engines put together(laughable i mean),,,,so even this amount of thrust is very good

3)The rafale deal even if signed in 2014 will start delivery in 2017 only and not 2016 as the delivery starts 3 years after signing

4)Why go for 2 diff platforms at the same time??When the timeframe of these products is almost similar?No one can justify that as our economy is not that big and we have to focus on priotities and we have a jv in pakfa and hence its a priority.

5)The pakfa has 4 x-band aesa,2 l-band aesa along with other things,,,,its radars are better than rafale's...............the only thing better in rafale is spectra but its not worth this much!!

6)As u know amca has already been stalled and lca is just gonna be delayed again(u will see)........kaveri is in limbo.......no indigenous avionics......no other noteworthy air to air missile!!

So we are not china that we can invest in 3 diff projects
For india with a defence budget of only 40 billion or so we have to balance our money and certainly i think pakfa is enough for china and an overkill for pakistan so i ask again??

WHY RAFALE??

Even if pakfa production starts in 2018 it will be at the same time as rafale so why rafale??
Can HAL handle 3 diff fighters??
a)pakfa.......done deal,cannot be changed
b)lca mk 1 and 2.................cannot be left to die
c)rafale................the only deal not signed yet

The answer is simply NO..........it cannot handle 3 diff types of fighters from 3 diff agencies??can u counter this last argument?

your link also says that it could be a early model.
Rafale sources says it's around 1000t/r modules, and even if it's 800+ it will be more than enough to detect other jets well before it's own weapon range, so that will be good enough considering it's passive detection abilities also.

No man 850 is very small as take into huge nose of j-20.......pls think china,,it will def have a huge aesa radar with atleast 1500 modules and a fixed plate 850 modules aesa radar against a .001m2 or lower target will bring our defeat,nothing else

 

[sardar1987]

You have serious comprehension problems even when I quote you with my original post
Let me prove it to you
- what did I say. RCS reduction doesn't help to much for 4/4.5 gen as they use weapons on external hard points. So when you were comparing Su-35 against Rafael - both come with RAM coats and both use weapons externally means lower the size lower the RCS. But you seem to be missing some part to understand that. Then you surprisingly bring PAK-FA in discussion which use weapons in internal bays - so obviously rafael and Su-35 isn't match for it.

And forget about reading magazines you cant even read the posts. And what are you ??? Aeronautical engineer ???

And again I am not abusing because you are newbie. That was because you are ignorant and missing a rational mind.
- you claim Su-35 will beat Rafael but did you prove it ??? You say it again and again and what you give ??? The AESA specifications ???

- Lastly I really wana see the one genius whi can calculate RCS from those figures.



And what are you ?? Aeronautical engineer in LM ???

I have already proved in my links that rafale's radar will be fried against other bigger alternatives on the account of its very small no of t/r modules and fixed plate severely restricting the coverage..........i never doubted spectra

But can u ignore supercruise speed,overall speed,thrust vectoring??
Just don't base ur opinions on spectra alone,,in a few years all aircrafts will have a comparable thing,what then?
Other parameters are imp especially when u are spending 100 million on one 4.5 gen plane and with fgfa also costing same

 

[Sergi]

I have already proved in my links that rafale's radar will be fried against other bigger alternatives on the account of its very small no of t/r modules and fixed plate severely restricting the coverage..........i never doubted spectra

But can u ignore supercruise speed,overall speed,thrust vectoring??
Just don't base ur opinions on spectra alone,,in a few years all aircrafts will have a comparable thing,what then?
Other parameters are imp especially when u are spending 100 million on one 4.5 gen plane and with fgfa also costing same

I even reply to that too thats what I am saying again and again and again you are NOT reading but replying every post

I will suggest you quote or mention @DrSomnath999 for all the comparisons you want. He is you best shot if you avoid you arrogance and actually listen to the person before drawing any conclusion. Finally you are free to conclude anything but try to to listen first.

As far as I am concerned you and that other joker kid has already established that we are nothing but fan boys so lets keep it that way. What ever that make you happy. Consider this as my last reply to you . Good luck

 

[sardar1987]

I even reply to that too thats what I am saying again and again and again you are NOT reading but replying every post

I will suggest you quote or mention @DrSomnath999 for all the comparisons you want. He is you best shot if you avoid you arrogance and actually listen to the person before drawing any conclusion. Finally you are free to conclude anything but try to to listen first.

As far as I am concerned you and that other joker kid has already established that we are nothing but fan boys so lets keep it that way. What ever that make you happy. Consider this as my last reply to you . Good luck

Just shut up.If u come to defence forums to make philosophical comments then u should consider what u are doing here!
Why dr somnath,,,,,u have nothing to offer except spectra?

Guess why rafale lost every single bid it was in...................MONEY
Are we rich enough to start inducting 4 new platforms(lca mk1,mk2,pakfa,rafale) along with previous order of su-30
Just think a little,and u will get it.
And stop considering urself superior to other by saying joker and all,biggest joker is u who answers nothing and is just wasting time

 

[Anurag Rathore]

You have serious comprehension problems even when I quote you with my original post
Let me prove it to you
- what did I say. RCS reduction doesn't help to much for 4/4.5 gen as they use weapons on external hard points. So when you were comparing Su-35 against Rafael - both come with RAM coats and both use weapons externally means lower the size lower the RCS. But you seem to be missing some part to understand that. Then you surprisingly bring PAK-FA in discussion which use weapons in internal bays - so obviously rafael and Su-35 isn't match for it.

And forget about reading magazines you cant even read the posts. And what are you ??? Aeronautical engineer ???

And again I am not abusing because you are newbie. That was because you are ignorant and missing a rational mind.
- you claim Su-35 will beat Rafael but did you prove it ??? You say it again and again and what you give ??? The AESA specifications ???

- Lastly I really wana see the one genius whi can calculate RCS from those figures.



And what are you ?? Aeronautical engineer in LM ???



Watch your mouth kid. You are one and the same thing. Don't make me say it.

that's ur level and reality

 

[surya kiran]

Its a lie as provided in the link.............t/r modules can be easily counted and u are free to count,from any picture if i may say!!

njai http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_11.pdf

Only link for you Btw do you think no of T/R modules will tell you what a radar can do? There are a few more variables. Guess which? Its called power.

 

[sardar1987]

that's ur level and reality

Again blabbering and blabbering and more blaberring...........if u have nothing to say and are happy with hal then i have nothing to say
We will as usual be fucked in this deal too like others

njai http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/img/fox3_11.pdf

Only link for you Btw do you think no of T/R modules will tell you what a radar can do? There are a few more variables. Guess which? Its called power.

Yes and power of irbis e is 18 kw
any more questions??

It means that new n050 will have equivalent or more power than 18 kw................any opinion on this?
But where are the stats for rafale radar...........right.................they don't exist!!

By the way thanks for the link,and can u debate on the points i raised on above post,the lengthy one?

here u go
http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?op...:-q-q-35&catid=8:2011-07-06-06-33-26&Itemid=8
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker-Radars.html#mozTocId533477

 

[Sergi]

@sardar1987 & @Anurag Rathore : i said whatever that make you couple happy. I am done. Why are you drgging me back in ???
Save your and my time.
BTW you guies would make a good couple to start new private defence industry in India with your vast defence knowledge

Now if you two excuse me please dont quote me any more. It was a mistake to reply you

 

[sardar1987]

AND U must be a hal or drdo babu very apprehensive about the future are the first thing required is the privatization of drdo,,,,,guess what,u will loose ur chai-biscuit job

Then u can make any philosophical claims as u like

 

[surya kiran]

You have serious comprehension problems even when I quote you with my original post
Let me prove it to you
- what did I say. RCS reduction doesn't help to much for 4/4.5 gen as they use weapons on external hard points. So when you were comparing Su-35 against Rafael - both come with RAM coats and both use weapons externally means lower the size lower the RCS. But you seem to be missing some part to understand that. Then you surprisingly bring PAK-FA in discussion which use weapons in internal bays - so obviously rafael and Su-35 isn't match for it.

And forget about reading magazines you cant even read the posts. And what are you ??? Aeronautical engineer ???

And again I am not abusing because you are newbie. That was because you are ignorant and missing a rational mind.
- you claim Su-35 will beat Rafael but did you prove it ??? You say it again and again and what you give ??? The AESA specifications ???

- Lastly I really wana see the one genius whi can calculate RCS from those figures.



And what are you ?? Aeronautical engineer in LM ???

I have already proved in my links that rafale's radar will be fried against other bigger alternatives on the account of its very small no of t/r modules and fixed plate severely restricting the coverage..........i never doubted spectra

But can u ignore supercruise speed,overall speed,thrust vectoring??
Just don't base ur opinions on spectra alone,,in a few years all aircrafts will have a comparable thing,what then?
Other parameters are imp especially when u are spending 100 million on one 4.5 gen plane and with fgfa also costing same

Yaar, which part of the solution do you not understand? The Su-35 was not part of the evaluations. There were x number of fighters. They were pitted against each other. There were 2 fighters which passed. Rafale Typhoon. We have the money for the same. So when you have the money you buy what you want.

Now in the complete discussion of why Rafale won. Pitted against all the rest of the fighters in the competition. It won. Fair and square. Money is not a problem. And I did not bring this up earlier. Could you please tell me where the Russians were supposed to transfer ToT for components in Su-30? ToT was only for assembly to HAL.

For the Su-35 vs Rafale take it here http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/239028-sukhoi-su-35-vs-dassault-rafale.html

 

[sardar1987]

Yaar, which part of the solution do you not understand? The Su-35 was not part of the evaluations. There were x number of fighters. They were pitted against each other. There were 2 fighters which passed. Rafale Typhoon. We have the money for the same. So when you have the money you buy what you want.

Now in the complete discussion of why Rafale won. Pitted against all the rest of the fighters in the competition. It won. Fair and square. Money is not a problem. And I did not bring this up earlier. Could you please tell me where the Russians were supposed to transfer ToT for components? ToT was only for assembly.

For the Su-35 vs Rafale take it here http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/239028-sukhoi-su-35-vs-dassault-rafale.html

Oh ho i wrote i will write again,forget about other things...................just read

1)pakfa will enter service in 2016
New T-50 Fighter Jet to Enter Service in 2016

2)the only big change between pakfa and fgfa is that instead of product 117 engine,it gets product 30
But each product 117 engine is itself 2 times the 2 puny rafale engines put together(laughable i mean),,,,so even this amount of thrust is very good

3)The rafale deal even if signed in 2014 will start delivery in 2017 only and not 2016 as the delivery starts 3 years after signing

4)Why go for 2 diff platforms at the same time??When the timeframe of these products is almost similar?No one can justify that as our economy is not that big and we have to focus on priotities and we have a jv in pakfa and hence its a priority.

5)The pakfa has 4 x-band aesa,2 l-band aesa along with other things,,,,its radars are better than rafale's...............the only thing better in rafale is spectra but its not worth this much!!

6)As u know amca has already been stalled and lca is just gonna be delayed again(u will see)........kaveri is in limbo.......no indigenous avionics......no other noteworthy air to air missile!!

So we are not china that we can invest in 3 diff projects
For india with a defence budget of only 40 billion or so we have to balance our money and certainly i think pakfa is enough for china and an overkill for pakistan so i ask again??

WHY RAFALE??

Even if pakfa production starts in 2018 it will be at the same time as rafale so why rafale??
Can HAL handle 3 diff fighters??
a)pakfa.......done deal,cannot be changed
b)lca mk 1 and 2.................cannot be left to die
c)rafale................the only deal not signed yet

The answer is simply NO..........it cannot handle 3 diff types of fighters from 3 diff agencies??can u counter this last argument?

Oh ho i wrote i will write again,forget about other things...................just read

1)pakfa will enter service in 2016
New T-50 Fighter Jet to Enter Service in 2016

2)the only big change between pakfa and fgfa is that instead of product 117 engine,it gets product 30
But each product 117 engine is itself 2 times the 2 puny rafale engines put together(laughable i mean),,,,so even this amount of thrust is very good

3)The rafale deal even if signed in 2014 will start delivery in 2017 only and not 2016 as the delivery starts 3 years after signing

4)Why go for 2 diff platforms at the same time??When the timeframe of these products is almost similar?No one can justify that as our economy is not that big and we have to focus on priotities and we have a jv in pakfa and hence its a priority.

5)The pakfa has 4 x-band aesa,2 l-band aesa along with other things,,,,its radars are better than rafale's...............the only thing better in rafale is spectra but its not worth this much!!

6)As u know amca has already been stalled and lca is just gonna be delayed again(u will see)........kaveri is in limbo.......no indigenous avionics......no other noteworthy air to air missile!!

So we are not china that we can invest in 3 diff projects
For india with a defence budget of only 40 billion or so we have to balance our money and certainly i think pakfa is enough for china and an overkill for pakistan so i ask again??

WHY RAFALE??

Even if pakfa production starts in 2018 it will be at the same time as rafale so why rafale??
Can HAL handle 3 diff fighters??
a)pakfa.......done deal,cannot be changed
b)lca mk 1 and 2.................cannot be left to die
c)rafale................the only deal not signed yet

The answer is simply NO..........it cannot handle 3 diff types of fighters from 3 diff agencies??can u counter this last argument?

Thats why i say chinese are smarter as the exactly did what i am saying and look at the diff today..............induct platforms that are similar

 

[surya kiran]

Again blabbering and blabbering and more blaberring...........if u have nothing to say and are happy with hal then i have nothing to say
We will as usual be fucked in this deal too like others



Yes and power of irbis e is 18 kw
any more questions??

It means that new n050 will have equivalent or more power than 18 kw................any opinion on this?
But where are the stats for rafale radar...........right.................they don't exist!!

By the way thanks for the link,and can u debate on the points i raised on above post,the lengthy one?

here u go
Radar control system "IRBIS-E" for Su-35 fighter
Flanker Radars in Beyond Visual Range Air Combat

My friend was the procurement for a radar or a plane?

 

[sardar1987]

My friend was the procurement for a radar or a plane?

arey yaar had ho gayi???

see the only thing better in rafale is spectra...............compared to pakfa as we don't know about pakfa suite

in rest it gets butchered


anyways have u seen this movie??