Is blasphemy a pardonable offense?

[Solomon2]

You're repeating the same thing over and over again, even though I proved you wrong and gave references...
"Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." - [Al-Baqarah 2:111] [In this verse, Allah is addressing the allegations of Jews and Christians]

Now you have a clue of how Jews feel when they answer the false charges of hatemongers. Zarvan's "logic" is that what he claims as evidence is evidence and what you say, if it doesn't support his claims, is irrelevant.

His pointing out that when Muslims were weak jihad wasn't mandatory and that only the ruler is to protect minorities could be part a larger theme: that the stronger Muslims become the more they are expected to exercise repression upon weaker others. His poor syntax suggests that he is aware of the weakness of his arguments and is working to confuse you. If this was a face-to-face confrontation I suspect he might have lost patience already and struck you down while you were distracted trying to make sense of what he said and composing your response.

 

[Sneaker]

Well CONGRESS CONDEMNS it proves tons than an Indian promoting it!

But like "ignorant back then" and ignorant now Indians didnt learn to educate themselves that such laws are not "important" and can be challenged...But if you wish to be ignorant that is not my problem then people will take you for a ride and all you can do is repeat centuries old history..

If sarcasm isnt your strong trait I suggest you leave it to whom it was addressed to instead of being an unauthorized spokesman! He understood!




uncle ko baksht do...catch him when he makes another folly! Hope he went to read up....

LOL... ok... you continue burying your head deep inside the sand than an ostrich... But here is my 2 cents - Till you have to refer to a book before you decide (as an individual) on how to deal with another human being rather than using your commonsense, knowledge and emotions this situation will continue. You argue that the book says not to kill (even though history is replete with such instances) just because you don't want to kill. You will justify that interpretation saying all who are against it are ignorant of the "real" thing. Another says book supports killing because he wants to kill (even though history is again replete with opposite). He term all opposing him "ignorant". This is not new to any one religion and even secular books. Drop the book, think for yourself. We are humans, not robots that we need to be "programmed" for every action.

 

[TankMan]

Now you have a clue of how Jews feel when they answer the false charges of hatemongers. Zarvan's "logic" is that what he claims as evidence is evidence and what you say, if it doesn't support his claims, is irrelevant.

His pointing out that when Muslims were weak jihad wasn't mandatory and that only the ruler is to protect minorities could be part a larger theme: that the stronger Muslims become the more they are expected to exercise repression upon weaker others. His poor syntax suggests that he is aware of the weakness of his arguments and is working to confuse you. If this was a face-to-face confrontation I suspect he might have lost patience already and struck you down while you were distracted trying to make sense of what he said and composing your response.

I always did have a clue - haters exist for every community, not just Jews or Muslims.

His point is very weak from an Islamic point of view, because the Quran is meant to be general guidance for Muslims everywhere (unless explicitly stated otherwise, as is the case with the verses about the Masjid al Haram), so it doesn't matter what the Imams or fuqaha (Jurists) say, when the Quran says something, disobeying that is not Islam.

I know that Islam teaches peace and logic, which are the values I believe in - he can't shake me on that, well, maybe he can shake me physically .

 

[Solomon2]

I know that Islam teaches peace and logic, which are the values I believe in - he can't shake me on that, well, maybe he can shake me physically .

Why, when Taseer was shot, didn't you and your fellows turn out en masse and campaign in the streets to demand the government abolish the blasphemy laws? Why did you let Taseer's murderer and his supporters win that battle?

 

[Zarvan]

So how did these blasphemy and apostasy laws come to be associated with Islam?

The blasphemy and apostasy laws are found in the Hadeeth, sayings attributed to Prophet Mohammad, which were compiled two-three centuries after his death. Muslims know that no Hadeeth should contradict the Quran if they are to be accepted, given their subjective nature and reliance on the Quran for authenticity.

But early scholars intentionally overlooked this to protect the interests of clergymen and political leaders. These oppressive laws allow them to exercise complete control over people, punishing anyone who threatens their position by declaring them apostates — enemies of Islam. To so many clergymen, religion is nothing but a means to gain power and control people. To keep out competition and force their monopoly, they invent laws in the name of God so “consumers” have no choice but to keep buying their “product.” Or face persecution.




So what exactly does the Quran say about blasphemy and apostasy?

Quite frankly, blasphemy and apostasy laws are themselves blasphemous to the teachings of the Qur’an. Not in the traditional sense, but because they violate the very instructions the scripture gives regarding freedom of belief.

Regarding apostasy, in Quran 2:256 God says, “There is no compulsion in matters of faith. The right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces false authorities and becomes at peace with God has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. God is Hearer, Knower.”

In a similar vein, verse 109:6 instructs adherents to end a debate by saying: “To you, your belief system. And to me, mine.”

If all that isn’t convincing enough, Quran 10:99 should seal the deal: “If your Lord willed, all who are on earth, would have believed (by not providing free will). Would you then, compel people to become believers?”


A person from another faith is doing SHIRKH! Which is far worse than any blasphemy..wait isnt shirkh blasphemy against ALLAH? you know rejecting ALLAH or associating partners with ALLAH? How is that not something to murder for?

Quran says when one is claiming something ask him TO BRING FORWARD YOUR PROOF....so bring forward they did NOTHING ELSE WRONG and WERE SOLELY punished for blasphemy!

The first crap you quoted are from those so called liberal Mullahs who deny every thing to please west one of them is fraud Ghamidi and others like Quran and Hadees are both source of law in Islam and death punishment for Blasphemy was given in life if RASOOL SAW and in time of 4 Caliphs

 

[Zarvan]

When it comes to blasphemy, I often hear some version of, “Hold on. If someone mocks my religion, it prompts me to act violently. You see, it makes me very emotional.”

But this statement only shows an ignorance of the Quran, which says in verse 6:68, “When you see them engaged in vain discourse about Our verses, turn away from them unless they engage in a different subject. If Satan ever makes you forget (i.e. your mind gets engrossed in their discourse,) then as soon as you recollect, no longer sit in the company of the people who confound the truth with falsehood.”

Here, Muslims are instructed to engage with these people if they change the topic. Certainly that means we’re not to have enmity towards them, let alone kill them!


Doesnt say chop off their heads!!!

Those verses are practically shouting freedom of expression at the top of their lungs! Islam is a very progressive path to God, one in which differences in opinions and beliefs are accepted, not punished (Quran 39:18). On the other hand, blasphemy and apostasy laws lead to negative misconceptions about Islam being an oppressive faith.

But what are we Muslims to do? By not voicing our disapproval, we stand for these anti-Quranic laws and call them Islam. Is that not like setting your own house on fire? There is not a single verse that encourages Muslims to act violently toward those who leave Islam, or even mock the Quran. After all, shouldn’t truth be able to defend itself on its own merit? What good is a forced belief?

We can even take it a step further by noting how rejecters treated the prophets.

Of Prophet Nooh: “They said, ‘If you do not desist, O Noah, you will surely be of those who are stoned’” (Quran 26:116).

Prophet Ibrahim’s father said, ”Do you dislike my gods, O Abraham? If you cease not, I will certainly cause you to be stoned to death! Now get away from me for good” (Quran 19:46). Similarly, the priesthood said of Ibrahim, “Burn him alive and uphold your gods if you are going to take any action” (Quran 21:68).

Regarding Prophet Musa, “[Pharaoh] said, ‘If you take a god/authority other than me, I will surely place you among those imprisoned’” (Quran 26:29). To Musa’s followers, Pharaoh also said, “I will surely cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will surely crucify you all” (Quran 26:49).”

These verses should reveal to us a different perspective: all prophets were seen as blasphemers and apostates to the prevalent religion of their time. To condone the oppressive laws of religious leaders today is to support ill treatment of the prophets. After all, you would’ve done the same!

And that’s the most ironic part. If a messenger were to come today, these clergymen and their ardent followers would utter the same threats to him. They have fabricated their own laws in the name of God, so when you ask them to reform, they either consider you a blasphemer or an apostate and have a fatwa issued to kill you. That’s the scary thing about truth: it doesn’t warrant aggression but is always met with it.

This is not a matter of interpretation, as some would call it. The Quran condemns forced belief in numerous verses. Rather, this is a matter of giving preference to the Hadeeth over the Quran to justify bigotry and extremism in the name of Islam. Having said that, it’s up to you whether you want to rethink your stance or keep blindly following what you have been taught — whether you want to follow Islam or Hislam. Because unlike misguided religious fanatics, sincere believers never force their beliefs on others.

What’s the Golden Rule, again? “Any secondary source on Islam that goes against the Quran should be rejected.”

Often said, but seldom followed.

Basically it was the priest and the mullahs of the olden times who used to stone and kill people for disagree with them...So you are a Mullah from the past?

@Zarvan tumhara kiya khial hai...Agar aaj kissi Hindu ya Yahoodi nay Quran ko kuch kia tou kiya Islam mitt jai ga? Agar unay Prophet ko kuch kaha tou mayray prophet ko kuch faragh paray ga? Agar unhoun nay ALLAH ko kuch kaha kiya mayray ALLAH ka kuch bigaar saktay hain? If not then why kill them? Jub unkay kehnay ya kernay say koi kiyamaat kiya koi darkht ka pata tak nai gir sakta then tum kiyun maatam shuru kerna cha tay ho? Islam nay destruction ka koi hukum nai diya!

Itna kamzoor nai hai Mayra Islam....hence, I dont really care what they do as long as THEY dont start preaching something and calling it Islam like what you have been thought!

Qur’an was the first religious scripture to categorically declare, “There shall be no compulsion in religion”. Likewise, the Qur’an repeatedly states that Muslims, including Prophet Muhammad, can only admonish non-Muslims regarding religious matters. The Qur’an addresses disbelief more than 150 times, yet man is never given authority to punish the disbeliever. If Islam sanctioned death for apostasy, why does the Qur’an address—but never sanction—worldly punishment for the apostate who repeatedly believes and disbelieves (Qur’an 2:218; 3:21, 73, 91; 4:138; 5:55, 62, 93, 100; 9:3, 66-68, 74; 16:107; 47:26-27; 63:2-7.) ? As the majority of these verses were revealed in Medina, not Mecca, critics cannot resort to the “argument” of abrogation of earlier Qur’anic verses by later revelations.

Prophet Muhammad’s example corroborates the view that no punishment for apostasy exists in Islam. Once, a Bedouin convert to Islam suffered a fever while in Medina. He asked to be released from his pledge three times and was refused three times. Still, he left Medina unharmed. The reader may question if a single incident during Prophet Muhammad’s life is sufficient to prove that Islam does not punish an apostate. In fact, not a single instance exists of Prophet Muhammad punishing an individual because they apostatized. Finally, Islam does not restrict apostasy. Any “punishment” an apostate incurs is a matter between that person and God. The Qur’an is clear: apostasy is not a worldly crime, it is certainly not the “ultimate” crime, apostates are not to be harmed—let alone put to death, and those who choose to leave Islam have every right to do so. Precisely the same principles of freedom of conscience and speech apply to those who would be deemed blasphemers. That is, in Islam, no worldly punishment exists for blasphemy. - See more at: Myth #5: Prophet Muhammad taught death for apostasy and blasphemy | Muhammad Fact Check

@Zarvan

Proofs that present Blasphemy law is against Quran and Sunnat | Page 2

Blasphemy law doesn't go against Quran these liberal puppet touts of west are for sure going against Islam from prisoners of badr till Fatah Makkhah many were killed for this crime and in time of 4 caliphs to

 

[Solomon2]

The first crap you quoted are from those so called liberal Mullahs who deny every thing to please west one of them is fraud Ghamidi and others like Quran and Hadees are both source of law in Islam and death punishment for Blasphemy was given in life if RASOOL SAW and in time of 4 Caliphs

If you can't dispute the specific charges but only the people offering them why should anybody accept that your arguments have validity?

 

[Zarvan]

When it comes to blasphemy, I often hear some version of, “Hold on. If someone mocks my religion, it prompts me to act violently. You see, it makes me very emotional.”

But this statement only shows an ignorance of the Quran, which says in verse 6:68, “When you see them engaged in vain discourse about Our verses, turn away from them unless they engage in a different subject. If Satan ever makes you forget (i.e. your mind gets engrossed in their discourse,) then as soon as you recollect, no longer sit in the company of the people who confound the truth with falsehood.”

Here, Muslims are instructed to engage with these people if they change the topic. Certainly that means we’re not to have enmity towards them, let alone kill them!


Doesnt say chop off their heads!!!

Those verses are practically shouting freedom of expression at the top of their lungs! Islam is a very progressive path to God, one in which differences in opinions and beliefs are accepted, not punished (Quran 39:18). On the other hand, blasphemy and apostasy laws lead to negative misconceptions about Islam being an oppressive faith.

But what are we Muslims to do? By not voicing our disapproval, we stand for these anti-Quranic laws and call them Islam. Is that not like setting your own house on fire? There is not a single verse that encourages Muslims to act violently toward those who leave Islam, or even mock the Quran. After all, shouldn’t truth be able to defend itself on its own merit? What good is a forced belief?

We can even take it a step further by noting how rejecters treated the prophets.

Of Prophet Nooh: “They said, ‘If you do not desist, O Noah, you will surely be of those who are stoned’” (Quran 26:116).

Prophet Ibrahim’s father said, ”Do you dislike my gods, O Abraham? If you cease not, I will certainly cause you to be stoned to death! Now get away from me for good” (Quran 19:46). Similarly, the priesthood said of Ibrahim, “Burn him alive and uphold your gods if you are going to take any action” (Quran 21:68).

Regarding Prophet Musa, “[Pharaoh] said, ‘If you take a god/authority other than me, I will surely place you among those imprisoned’” (Quran 26:29). To Musa’s followers, Pharaoh also said, “I will surely cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will surely crucify you all” (Quran 26:49).”

These verses should reveal to us a different perspective: all prophets were seen as blasphemers and apostates to the prevalent religion of their time. To condone the oppressive laws of religious leaders today is to support ill treatment of the prophets. After all, you would’ve done the same!

And that’s the most ironic part. If a messenger were to come today, these clergymen and their ardent followers would utter the same threats to him. They have fabricated their own laws in the name of God, so when you ask them to reform, they either consider you a blasphemer or an apostate and have a fatwa issued to kill you. That’s the scary thing about truth: it doesn’t warrant aggression but is always met with it.

This is not a matter of interpretation, as some would call it. The Quran condemns forced belief in numerous verses. Rather, this is a matter of giving preference to the Hadeeth over the Quran to justify bigotry and extremism in the name of Islam. Having said that, it’s up to you whether you want to rethink your stance or keep blindly following what you have been taught — whether you want to follow Islam or Hislam. Because unlike misguided religious fanatics, sincere believers never force their beliefs on others.

What’s the Golden Rule, again? “Any secondary source on Islam that goes against the Quran should be rejected.”

Often said, but seldom followed.

Basically it was the priest and the mullahs of the olden times who used to stone and kill people for disagree with them...So you are a Mullah from the past?

@Zarvan tumhara kiya khial hai...Agar aaj kissi Hindu ya Yahoodi nay Quran ko kuch kia tou kiya Islam mitt jai ga? Agar unay Prophet ko kuch kaha tou mayray prophet ko kuch faragh paray ga? Agar unhoun nay ALLAH ko kuch kaha kiya mayray ALLAH ka kuch bigaar saktay hain? If not then why kill them? Jub unkay kehnay ya kernay say koi kiyamaat kiya koi darkht ka pata tak nai gir sakta then tum kiyun maatam shuru kerna cha tay ho? Islam nay destruction ka koi hukum nai diya!

Itna kamzoor nai hai Mayra Islam....hence, I dont really care what they do as long as THEY dont start preaching something and calling it Islam like what you have been thought!

Qur’an was the first religious scripture to categorically declare, “There shall be no compulsion in religion”. Likewise, the Qur’an repeatedly states that Muslims, including Prophet Muhammad, can only admonish non-Muslims regarding religious matters. The Qur’an addresses disbelief more than 150 times, yet man is never given authority to punish the disbeliever. If Islam sanctioned death for apostasy, why does the Qur’an address—but never sanction—worldly punishment for the apostate who repeatedly believes and disbelieves (Qur’an 2:218; 3:21, 73, 91; 4:138; 5:55, 62, 93, 100; 9:3, 66-68, 74; 16:107; 47:26-27; 63:2-7.) ? As the majority of these verses were revealed in Medina, not Mecca, critics cannot resort to the “argument” of abrogation of earlier Qur’anic verses by later revelations.

Prophet Muhammad’s example corroborates the view that no punishment for apostasy exists in Islam. Once, a Bedouin convert to Islam suffered a fever while in Medina. He asked to be released from his pledge three times and was refused three times. Still, he left Medina unharmed. The reader may question if a single incident during Prophet Muhammad’s life is sufficient to prove that Islam does not punish an apostate. In fact, not a single instance exists of Prophet Muhammad punishing an individual because they apostatized. Finally, Islam does not restrict apostasy. Any “punishment” an apostate incurs is a matter between that person and God. The Qur’an is clear: apostasy is not a worldly crime, it is certainly not the “ultimate” crime, apostates are not to be harmed—let alone put to death, and those who choose to leave Islam have every right to do so. Precisely the same principles of freedom of conscience and speech apply to those who would be deemed blasphemers. That is, in Islam, no worldly punishment exists for blasphemy. - See more at: Myth #5: Prophet Muhammad taught death for apostasy and blasphemy | Muhammad Fact Check

@Zarvan

Proofs that present Blasphemy law is against Quran and Sunnat | Page 2

If a Hindu or another guy doesn't believe in PROPHET SAW that is not my problem but if that person abuses my PROPHET SAW than I will just ............ them up

 

[TankMan]

Why, when Taseer was shot, didn't you and your fellows turn out en masse and campaign in the streets to demand the government abolish the blasphemy laws? Why did you let Taseer's murderer and his supporters win that battle?

Many reasons.
1- Political angle : Way too much politics involved to actually get anything out of it. Most people are not interested in getting involved here.

2- People didn't care: Most people didn't actually care much about Taseer. For them, it was just another corrupt politician who got what he deserved, they didn't understand the gravity of the situation

3- Lack of unity: there was no one to co-ordinate such a protest, most politicians weren't interested in something that wouldn't get them anything, and those who were interested didn't have the strength or following to do so.

4- The existence of Mullahs: Any normal person trying to do this would be instantly called fifty derogatory terms and would have received various threats from people like our brother Zarvan here. This, when combined with the above factors, discourages normal people.

5- Lack of Knowledge: Most people aren't equipped with the knowledge to counter the maulvis and mullahs.

@Zarvan How about you use evidence from the Quran to disprove us instead of calling us 'liberal puppets'? Are you saying that the Quran is a tool for liberal puppets or are you saying that it has less value than your maulvis? Astaghfirullah.

if that person abuses my PROPHET SAW than I will just ............ them up

So basically you'll disobey his teachings and destroy his legacy. That is worse than abusing him. A few nutjobs abusing the Prophet s.a.w don't do as much damage as people killing others over it, which makes us look like primitive murderers and the Prophet s.a.w as a violent leader, which he was not.

So what you end up doing, aside from getting yourself a one-way ticket to hell, is create more hatred and abuse for the Prophet s.a.w and spreading the exact opposite of his message.

“And good and evil deeds are not alike. Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend.” [Surah Fussilat 33-34]

 

[Solomon2]

@Zarvan How about you use evidence from the Quran to disprove us instead of calling us 'liberal puppets'? Are you saying that the Quran is a tool for liberal puppets or are you saying that it has less value than your maulvis? Astaghfirullah.

So basically you'll disobey his teachings and destroy his legacy -

Which then raises the question of whether one should choose to become "a primitive murderer"-type "Muslim" or side with people, Muslim or not, who adhere to less-murderous standard of moral conduct.

 

[TankMan]

Which then raises the question of whether one should choose to become "a primitive murderer"-type "Muslim" or side with people, Muslim or not, who adhere to less-murderous standard of moral conduct.

I would always side with an intelligent and logical non Muslim than a violent Muslim , or rather, take the middle path - that's what the Holy Prophet s.a.w would want us to do.

''The deen is ease. Whoever makes the deen too hard for himself will be overpowered, so direct yourselves to what is right, follow a middle course, accept the good news of the reward for right action, and seek help [to reach your goal by being constant in worshipping] in the morning, evening and some of the night.''
[Fath-ul-Bari, Page 102, Vol 1]. [Sahih al-Bukhari 39]

 

[Solomon2]

I would always side with an intelligent and logical non Muslim than a violent Muslim , or rather, take the middle path - that's what the Holy Prophet s.a.w would want us to do.

''The deen is ease. Whoever makes the deen too hard for himself will be overpowered, so direct yourselves to what is right, follow a middle course, accept the good news of the reward for right action, and seek help [to reach your goal by being constant in worshipping] in the morning, evening and some of the night.''
[Fath-ul-Bari, Page 102, Vol 1]. [Sahih al-Bukhari 39]

So if the terror wielded by the likes of Zardan is great enough, this encourages the Muslim to put up and shut up and let evil reign openly while plotting against evil secretly?

 

[TankMan]

So if the terror wielded by the likes of Zardan is great enough, this encourages the Muslim to put up and shut up and let evil reign openly while plotting against evil secretly?

What? No, not at all - it encourages the Muslims to take an unbiased approach while opposing evil. Do not twist words.

 

[Solomon2]

...it encourages the Muslims to take an unbiased approach while opposing evil. Do not twist words.

Not twisting words. I don't know what "unbiased approach while opposing evil" is.

 

[Zarvan]

Many reasons.
1- Political angle : Way too much politics involved to actually get anything out of it. Most people are not interested in getting involved here.

2- People didn't care: Most people didn't actually care much about Taseer. For them, it was just another corrupt politician who got what he deserved, they didn't understand the gravity of the situation

3- Lack of unity: there was no one to co-ordinate such a protest, most politicians weren't interested in something that wouldn't get them anything, and those who were interested didn't have the strength or following to do so.

4- The existence of Mullahs: Any normal person trying to do this would be instantly called fifty derogatory terms and would have received various threats from people like our brother Zarvan here. This, when combined with the above factors, discourages normal people.

5- Lack of Knowledge: Most people aren't equipped with the knowledge to counter the maulvis and mullahs.

@Zarvan How about you use evidence from the Quran to disprove us instead of calling us 'liberal puppets'? Are you saying that the Quran is a tool for liberal puppets or are you saying that it has less value than your maulvis? Astaghfirullah.

So basically you'll disobey his teachings and destroy his legacy. That is worse than abusing him. A few nutjobs abusing the Prophet s.a.w don't do as much damage as people killing others over it, which makes us look like primitive murderers and the Prophet s.a.w as a violent leader, which he was not.

So what you end up doing, aside from getting yourself a one-way ticket to hell, is create more hatred and abuse for the Prophet s.a.w and spreading the exact opposite of his message.

“And good and evil deeds are not alike. Repel evil with good. And he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend.” [Surah Fussilat 33-34]

I not disobeying him and for ayats you first go and read there context than come and talk you are quoting ayats wrongly and talking against this law are mostly those who are always looking to please west but punishment for Blasphemy is clear if state will not do that people will