Is being Anti-Islam the same as Pro-Indian?

[KS]

....Often said but not really true. Hindus turned out that way because of circumstances, any religion not even treating the adherents of its own faith as equals can hardly claim to be intrinsically secular...

Hinduism or actually any other Indic religion can claim to be secular because they dont have holy books telling how to run governments or interfering in the political realm.

The word you were looking for was 'egalitarian'.

 

[doppelganger]

I myself think the Haj subsidy has no place in a secular nation. We should then have subsidies for Christians to go to the Vatican and them and the Jews to Jerusalem, and for Parsis to go to Iran as well. It is wrong and is something we have been tolerating and keeping quiet on for long.

 

[Bang Galore]

Hinduism or actually any other Indic religion can claim to be secular because they dont have holy books telling how to run governments or interfering in the political realm.

The word you were looking for was 'egalitarian'.

Religions are never secular, I was using it in the context it had been mentioned, suggesting tolerance. Btw, the religion was used commonly in running of the state including in keeping control of the caste system.

I myself think the Haj subsidy has no place in a secular nation. We should then have subsidies for Christians to go to the Vatican and them and the Jews to Jerusalem, and for Parsis to go to Iran as well. It is wrong and is something we have been tolerating and keeping quiet on for long.

Don't know about other states but Karnataka gives about Rs.25,000/- as subsidy for those going to Kailash Manasarovar. However I'm in full agreement with your point.

 

[zaxcolix]

Often said but not really true. Hindus turned out that way because of circumstances, any religion not even treating the adherents of its own faith as equals can hardly claim to be intrinsically secular. Hinduism was more amenable to change because the faults were so grave as to be untenable. Once it underwent changes, it became amenable to more & more changes and lost the rigidity that had characterised long periods of its existence. Hinduism is more tolerant today because the people changed, the same with the Christians of western Europe.

Dead WRONG.

Hinduism was more amenable to change and provided space for other religion was because it encouraged asking questions which went beyond the standard dogma. Even Vedas were allowed to be questioned and everyone was allowed to discover their own path to god, build their own philosophies and seek path that was in line with their understanding the world around them.

Manusmirit was only one among more than a thousand hindu religious texts and its the only one that sets caste boundaries. Whole bunch of religious literature encouraged a million paths to forming a better society by helping individuals become a better person.

Attack by barbarians defiled Hindu religious practices making it withdrawn for some time into a rigid shell...but even that did not prevent flowing of different schools of thoughts that is the essence of Hinduism.

To compare such open minded culture to the rigid dogmas of christianity and Islam is an Insult to all the Hindus who died in defense of the Hindu value systems and way of life.

 

[KS]

Religions are never secular, I was using it in the context it had been mentioned, suggesting tolerance.

I was saying in the context, that certain religions dont interfere in the political process and hence satisfy the dictionary meaning of being secular..i.e., separation of church and state.

Don't know about other states but Karnataka gives about Rs.25,000/- as subsidy for those going to Kailash Manasarovar. However I'm in full agreement with your point.

Thats not much considering that Karnataka Govt directly administers many cash rich temples and all their collections go to the state ex-chequer.

I'm favor of Govt not interfering in the administration/collection of temple assets and also completely stopping all these yatra subsidies.

 

[zaxcolix]

Then you are not talking of Hinduism, you are talking of mindset of Hindus in particular period. I agree religion evolves as people adapts according to current reality.

For a Hindu at one time, going out of the country via sea was considered as a sin, but today even a devote Hindu goes to any part of the world because of his work.

So agains I say secularism in in Hinduism, but all it depends, like you said, Hindus take their religion as. At given moment of time and place.

Let me correct you.....only the Brahmins were advised not crossing the seas do to reasons I have detailed in my earlier post. It was open to other casts.

Rig Vedic references to early seafarers - The oldest evidence on record is supplied by the Rig Veda, which contains several references to sea voyages undertaken for commercial purposes.

One passage (I. 25.7) represents Varuna having a full knowledge of the sea routes, and another (I. 56.2) speaks of merchants, under the influence of greed, sending ships to foreign countries.

A third passage (I. 56.2) mentions merchants whose field of activity known no bounds, who go everywhere in pursuit of gain, and frequent every part of the sea.

The fourth passage (VII. 88.3 and 4) alludes to a voyage undertaken by Vasishtha and Varuna in a ship skillfully fitted out, and their "undulating happily in the prosperous swing."

The fifth, which is the most interesting passage (I. 116. 3), mentions a naval expedition on which Tugra the Rishi king sent his son Bhujyu against some of his enemies in the distant islands; Bhujyu, however, is ship wrecked by a storm, with all his followers, on the ocean, "where there is no support, no rest for the foot or the hand," from which he is rescued by the twin brethren, the Asvins, in their hundred-oared galley.

 

[Bang Galore]

I
Thats not much considering that Karnataka Govt directly administers many cash rich temples and all their collections go to the state ex-chequer.

The Karnataka government under the BJP has been directly channeling money to Hindu religious institutions (Mutts) in the budget itself. An article pertaining to this year: (happened in all 5 years)

BJP eyes votes with Rs 500cr largesse to mutts in Karnataka - Times Of India

BANGALORE: In the past five years, the BJP has doled out several goodies to mutts totalling over Rs 500 crore.

 

[KS]

The Karnataka government under the BJP has been directly channeling money to Hindu religious institutions (Mutts) in the budget itself. An article pertaining to this year: (happened in all 5 years)

BJP eyes votes with Rs 500cr largesse to mutts in Karnataka - Times Of India

I read that news some time ago.

I would interested in knowing how much is the annual revenue of the State Endowments ministry from the various temples.

I can formulate my opinion only after knowing whether the Govt largesse exceeds the collective revenue over the same period.

On temples, some little known facts and a story of “secular” loot

In what may be the most appalling instance of such wilful neglect, disbursements to temples in Karnataka for renovation and maintenance between the period ’97-’98 to ’02-’03 fell (more than halved) from Rs 16.5 crores to Rs 7.1 crores even as revenues collected from temples rose from Rs 58.63 crores to Rs 79 crores! Interestingly, over the same period, disbursement to Madarsas, Mosques and Haj committee rose more than 4 times from Rs 14.25 crores to Rs 58 crores and disbursement to Christian institutions and churches more than doubled from Rs 5 crores to Rs 12.75 crores.

 

[doppelganger]

Don't know about other states but Karnataka gives about Rs.25,000/- as subsidy for those going to Kailash Manasarovar. However I'm in full agreement with your point.

Then that is also wrong. It is not a matter about the quantum of the subsidy. It is the very fact that the state is discriminating one faith from the other by its action. It is anti constitutional and I am surprised by no one has done a PIL till now.

 

[KS]

Then that is also wrong. It is not a matter about the quantum of the subsidy. It is the very fact that the state is discriminating one faith from the other by its action. It is anti constitutional and I am surprised by no one has done a PIL till now.

Refer my post 185.

Dont give subsidies and dont loot temple assets.

OTOH if the Govt is going to administer temple assets then its their duty to give back money for Hindu religious purposes.

 

[zaxcolix]

I read that news some time ago.

I would interested in knowing how much is the annual revenue of the State Endowments ministry from the various temples.

I can formulate my opinion only after knowing whether the Govt largesse exceeds the collective revenue over the same period.

Its a 40 year late reaction to the HAJ subsidy. BJP has come to terms with the fact that even if and when it comes to power it may be difficult to turn of the Haj subsidy tap due to the objections by 'Secular' parties.

The are merely trying to correct one wrong with another one.

 

[Dillinger]

Dead WRONG.

Hinduism was more amenable to change and provided space for other religion was because it encouraged asking questions which went beyond the standard dogma. Even Vedas were allowed to be questioned and everyone was allowed to discover their own path to god, build their own philosophies and seek path that was in line with their understanding the world around them.

Manusmirit was only one among more than a thousand hindu religious texts and its the only one that sets caste boundaries. Whole bunch of religious literature encouraged a million paths to forming a better society by helping individuals become a better person.

Attack by barbarians defiled Hindu religious practices making it withdrawn for some time into a rigid shell...but even that did not prevent flowing of different schools of thoughts that is the essence of Hinduism.

To compare such open minded culture to the rigid dogmas of christianity and Islam is an Insult to all the Hindus who died in defense of the Hindu value systems and way of life.

You're not completely accurate, Manusmriti may have been just one such religious texts but its the one that stuck around. And it has found its roots even among today's Hindus. Only a blind man would claim that we do not suffer from caste-ism even today. Any corrupt cretin like mayawati or lalu can become the CM based on the caste card (playing on lower castes and higher castes both), ranvir sena operates like a quasi taliban force killing lower caste people, brahmins go and molest dalit women in UP, the naxals find a ready source to exploit in the caste enforced hardships faced by many in the tribal areas. See, a member pointed out earlier that a religion cannot be judged by what it says or what it preaches..the more important criteria of judgment is how it is practiced and while in many cases Hindus are relatively better at following their religion peacefully- we still have groups like Abhinav Bharat which feel the need to pick up arms in some misguided attempt at "safeguarding Hinduism".

Bang Alore sir is correct in stating that NO religion is secular. The meaning of secular is as follows: Denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis, AND NOT our commonly held idea that to be secular means to be respectful towards all religion or to follow a strategy of appeasement. By that, correct, definition of secularism NO religion can ever be secular and thus neither is Hinduism.

 

[doppelganger]

Refer my post 185.

Two wrongs do not make a right. The state has no business running temples. Or mosques. Or any other place of worship.

The state also has no business giving money to a citizen of one faith and not to the other, for anything to do with matters of faith.

It is anti constitutional. In the eyes of the state Indians of all faiths are equal. Then why we Hindus get 25,000. Why a Christian does not get the same from the Karnataka govt.?

 

[illusion8]

Even if there is money why should the pilgrimage be subsidized in a supposedly secular country ?

To get Allah's blessings for India - Allah has been on our side for quite sometime

 

[KS]

The are merely trying to correct one wrong with another one.

Nein..there is no correction going on here.

While the Govt grants some amount to mutts after administering the temple assets, the grants to madarsah and haj as also increased exponentially without the Govt touching the Waqf properties.