Is being Anti-Islam the same as Pro-Indian?

[MST]

@MST Buddy, my point has been that what is being a Hindu means. If there are socio-economic problems created by Hindu people, than there must be something wrong from the very same people who wants to fight other religion but don't fight against evils of their own.

I didn't call it ill in Hinduism as far as women reservation is concerned.

Thing is being a Hindu definition has changed. It has become us vs them. Hinduism is not just a religion but a way of life too. These socio-economic problems arises from moral degradation of people.

My entire point is different.

If you are talking about Hinduism as a way of life (encompassing socio economic and everything else) then that is too broad and hardly fits in this discussion on Secularism. Secularism is to do with Hinduism as a religion. May be discussion on Hinduism as a way of life could be for another thread.

 

[KRAIT]

@Contrarian Sorry sir, the inherent reason is same as Serbs Christians who wanted political gain but used religion to kill Bosnians.

The inherent reason why master race concept of Germans lead to mass killings of Jews who were not considered as humans.

Same inherent reason where Hutu people snatched the babies and killed with their foots, pick the children from legs and smashed them on ground and cut the people in pieces, of Tutsi tribe.

For some its race, for some its religion, its the extremism, its not just mass hysteria, but a pre planned, well determined killing.

There is nothing wrong with Islam, Christianity, Hinduism etc.Its just people who are wrong who misinterpreted the religion and used for their own purpose.

Tell me one thing, if there is something inherently wrong with Islam, why majority of Muslims in world are less extremist than few Muslims in Iraq, Pakistan.

US wages war after war, should we call it is inherent quality of Christians dominated US ? US has killed more people than any terrorist group.

You cannot blame religion if you forget the socio-economic conditions, education, poverty, unemployment etc. as major reason of terrorism or social crime.

You are making wrong generalization. Something which is nothing but recipe of disaster.

If you are talking about Hinduism as a way of life (encompassing socio economic and everything else) then that is too broad and hardly fits in this discussion on Secularism. Secularism is to do with Hinduism as a religion. May be discussion on Hinduism as a way of life could be for another thread.

My point is secularism is already embedded in Hinduism.

 

[Contrarian]

@Contrarian Sorry sir, the inherent reason is same as Serbs Christians who wanted political gain but used religion to kill Bosnians.

The inherent reason why master race concept of Germans lead to mass killings of Jews who were not considered as humans.

Same inherent reason where Hutu people snatched the babies and killed with their foots, pick the children from legs and smashed them on ground and cut the people in pieces, of Tutsi tribe.

For some its race, for some its religion, its the extremism, its not just mass hysteria, but a pre planned, well determined killing.

There is nothing wrong with Islam, Christianity, Hinduism etc.Its just people who are wrong who misinterpreted the religion and used for their own purpose.

Tell me one thing, if there is something inherently wrong with Islam, why majority of Muslims in world are less extremist than few Muslims in Iraq, Pakistan.

You are making wrong generalization. Something which is nothing but recipe of disaster.

Disagree on this line. Most of Pakistani's are rabid fundamentalists. There is no other justification when Governor Tasseer is killed just for asking blasphemy laws to be revoked.

And what is surprising - that the killer was showered by rose petals by thousands of lawyers!
How thousands run after a 11 year old christian girl on heresay that she burnt a page of koran.

Do you see a pattern here? Its not random. Most of Pakistan is uneducated. Those educated are also from really bad schools and colleges. Yet most of Pakistani's are fed a daily diet of Islamic superiority and contempt of others.

The result is an extremist society today. And you see this replicating in Afghanistan, Syria. Its spreading, not stopping.

All the while the examples that you give were very limited to certain areas and time. And if you give examples of Nazis, the comparison will not be apt - because Nazis were killed out of existance, and that is not something that can even be thought of for Muslims. We live in the 21st century and are not barbarians.

The question still stands- why is it that Muslims are the ones exploding and killing, not other religions.

 

[KS]

@Contrarian Sorry sir, the inherent reason is same as Serbs Christians who wanted political gain but used religion to kill Bosnians.

Racial issue. No religous justification used.

Serbs killed as many Croats too.

The inherent reason why master race concept of Germans lead to mass killings of Jews who were not considered as humans.

Again racial iissue. Nothing to do with religion.

Jews were/are considered as a ethno-religious group.

Same inherent reason where Hutu people snatched the babies and killed with their foots, pick the children from legs and smashed them on ground and cut the people in pieces, of Tutsi tribe.

Stone age inter-tribal fights between the 1000 odd tribes in Africa.

Nothing to do with religion.

There is nothing wrong with Islam, Christianity, Hinduism etc.Its just people who are wrong who misinterpreted the religion and used for their own purpose.

Ha tell that to the millions upon millions of native Americans who were killed in the name of Christianity or the millions who were killed in the name of Islam in Spain,South asia and West asia.

The only difference is the christians reformed while muslims have not yet.

Tell me one thing, if there is something inherently wrong with Islam, why majority of Muslims in world are less extremist than few Muslims in Iraq, Pakistan. .

Playing a devil's advocate : can we say that those less-extremist Muslims are not following the true Islam ? Who decides which is the true version of Islam ?

 

[KRAIT]

@Contrarian Like you said same thing, the extremism is bred in un-educated, poor people, who are exposed to propaganda that they are superior and should kill all the kafirs.

Suicide bombing and explsion is a tool of violence.

Back in 1940s, people were thinking why a same religion people will fight among each other, Germany, UK, France, US etc. Now we all see the reason was racism, superiority complex of Nazis or a ideology called Nazism that led to world war. That was a conventional war.

This part of history, its urban war with no nation as such. Its Islamic extremism ideology that is waging war and these suicide bombings is there way to kill people.

Sir, tell me how many Indian Muslims blow themselves up in India than in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan.

Social conditioning, propaganda, religious extremism taught in schools, misleading youth is the real reason why these Islamic extremists have used to start a inter-religion war and also made you think that there is something wrong with Islam.

Before WoT was there widespread terrorism in Pakistan ? Before Afghan war was there any Mujaheedins attacking Indian Kashmir at that magnitude.

At one place people call Hindu problems as socio-economic in nature but fail to apply same in case of Muslims, where they are brainwashed to act like superior and get rid of kafirs.

World's biggest Weapon of Mass Destruction has always been created by Muslims, whether it is Nuclear bomb, Hydrogen bomb etc. Only used by Christians twice.

Now you will say its nothing to do with religion, but nationalism. That's my whole point. There is a virtual nation of Islamic radicals within the world who have built and using these weapons of destruction.


Its up to you how you look at the problem. Your frame of reference against mine. Do I find problem with Muslims in the world, yes I do, but I also find problem in Hindus and Christians too.

Depends on what you are looking for and how you want to fit your data in your theory. The way I say that WW 2 was caused by Christians is data fitting of my theory that there was something wrong and still is, with Christianity.

And btw religion/rac is used, the major motive is Political gain, like in Afghan war, Kashmir, Bosnia etc.

 

[Bang Galore]

[MENTION=1634]

My point is secularism is already embedded in Hinduism.

Often said but not really true. Hindus turned out that way because of circumstances, any religion not even treating the adherents of its own faith as equals can hardly claim to be intrinsically secular. Hinduism was more amenable to change because the faults were so grave as to be untenable. Once it underwent changes, it became amenable to more & more changes and lost the rigidity that had characterised long periods of its existence. Hinduism is more tolerant today because the people changed, the same with the Christians of western Europe.

 

[doppelganger]

1. After remaining enslaved for millenniums, the Hindu has set up the Republic of India. It is another matter that many Indians, ranging from late Nirod Choudhri to the bonded farmers of Gujarat, Maharashtra, Andhra, Karnataka, Rajasthan and others do not believe India is free. The dream of the Hindu is to establish a Hindu empire in SA. The proponents of Hindutva / Ram Rajya / Akhand Bharat visualize this empire (Maha Bharat) to stretch from the Oxus to the Bali Islands.

2. In this Maha Bharat there will be no place for non-Hindus. Already the constitution of India defines Hindus to include the Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Brahmos and others. Like Hinduism had overpowered Buddhism over centuries by various means - but the chief being cultural onslaught.

3. Through the Partition, 1947, Muslims have already been cornered - now in the east as well as in the west. Within India Muslims are encouraged to follow a form of Din e Ilahi or proscribed secularism. The objective is to eventually ethnically cleanse the Muslims out of SA.

4. Yes, there should be no doubt whatsoever that in SA being anti-Indian is to be pro-Islam for the Muslims of SA. The current State of India, ruled by a Brahmaonic oligarchy from Delhi, is a direct threat to the existence of Islam and Muslims in SA.

Yet our muslims have and continue to grow. How do you explain that? How does that fit into the hindu scheme of things you ascribe on to us?

 

[Contrarian]

@Contrarian Like you said same thing, the extremism is bred in un-educated, poor people, who are exposed to propaganda that they are superior and should kill all the kafirs.

Suicide bombing and explsion is a tool of violence.

Back in 1940s, people were thinking why a same religion people will fight among each other, Germany, UK, France, US etc. Now we all see the reason was racism, superiority complex of Nazis or a ideology called Nazism that led to world war. That was a conventional war.

This part of history, its urban war with no nation as such. Its Islamic extremism ideology that is waging war and these suicide bombings is there way to kill people.

Sir, tell me how many Indian Muslims blow themselves up in India than in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan.

Social conditioning, propaganda, religious extremism taught in schools, misleading youth is the real reason why these Islamic extremists have used to start a inter-religion war and also made you think that there is something wrong with Islam.

Before WoT was there widespread terrorism in Pakistan ? Before Afghan war was there any Mujaheedins attacking Indian Kashmir at that magnitude.

At one place people call Hindu problems as socio-economic in nature but fail to apply same in case of Muslims, where they are brainwashed to act like superior and get rid of kafirs.

World's biggest Weapon of Mass Destruction has always been created by Muslims, whether it is Nuclear bomb, Hydrogen bomb etc. Only used by Christians twice.

Now you will say its nothing to do with religion, but nationalism. That's my whole point. There is a virtual nation of Islamic radicals within the world who have built and using these weapons of destruction.


Its up to you how you look at the problem. Your frame of reference against mine. Do I find problem with Muslims in the world, yes I do, but I also find problem in Hindus and Christians too.

Depends on what you are looking for and how you want to fit your data in your theory. The way I say that WW 2 was caused by Christians is data fitting of my theory that there was something wrong and still is, with Christianity.

And btw religion/rac is used, the major motive is Political gain, like in Afghan war, Kashmir, Bosnia etc.

You make fair points.

 

[doppelganger]

So, how many Indians agree with this person's bigotry?
Is it common place?

The same thing can be said in different ways and not come across as bigoted. Some things though are true. India is secular and has remained secular because the majority of us want us to be secular. The majority of us are hindus. That no one can argue.

Which is what I ask of Indian Muslim history..
I use the term Indian Muslim inclusively.. as I mean Muslims of the Sub-continent..
Should they always carry the stigma of being regarded as Invaders as is held by many a esteemed members here?

Are none of the great progresses in architecture, music, literature.. even the relative peacefulness of the Dehli Sultanates
Should Sher Shah Suri's achievements be disregarded as alien.. and not part of India or its peoples?
Sure there were brutal rulers within Muslims as well.. but was it just Muslims who were always the brutal rulers??

After all.. how long does it take for a peoples to be considered a part of the land?? If the theory presented by many esteemed members in their anti-Islam tirade is to be taken at face value.. then no Americans should dare call themselves American.. and should be disowned.. or rather the evolution of human settlements should be branded as shirk as they all left their lands to settle and/or rule elsewhere.

No Indian believes that our muslims are not of our land or indigenous to our civilization. And we extend that east and west of our land as well.

 

[Lavosh2]

T

Does it not happen elsewhere.. well.. Pakistan is the opposite.. non-muslims are being prosecuted.. and so on..
but this prosecution is the result of uneducated clergy sowing hatred.. and it does not translate into the educated urbanites as such..other than that they are guilty of simply not caring about it..
But here we have an example of someone who seems to be educated.. yet holds a view that would reflect that of a Mullah or those obsessed with a Ghazwa-e-hind.

you are kidding , so your constitution was designed by Uneducated people which gives "Second class treatment" to non-Muslims . Pakistani constitution indirectly designed to discriminate , destroy minority in your country.

fact that at kasab death thousand of Pakistani organize "namaj" for him . laden was uneducated or you ISI is uneducated people's organization.

fact - majority (90% minimum) fully support their anti-non Muslim constitution . just watch public talk shows what your normal educated Pakistanis talk.

 

[Contrarian]

Which is what I ask of Indian Muslim history..
I use the term Indian Muslim inclusively.. as I mean Muslims of the Sub-continent..
Should they always carry the stigma of being regarded as Invaders as is held by many a esteemed members here?

Are none of the great progresses in architecture, music, literature.. even the relative peacefulness of the Dehli Sultanates
Should Sher Shah Suri's achievements be disregarded as alien.. and not part of India or its peoples?
Sure there were brutal rulers within Muslims as well.. but was it just Muslims who were always the brutal rulers??

After all.. how long does it take for a peoples to be considered a part of the land?? If the theory presented by many esteemed members in their anti-Islam tirade is to be taken at face value.. then no Americans should dare call themselves American.. and should be disowned.. or rather the evolution of human settlements should be branded as shirk as they all left their lands to settle and/or rule elsewhere.

The question is that in Pakistan, we have seen that becoming Muslims means you lose your loyalty to the land of your forefathers and adopt loyalty to lands in Arabia. Donot presume to say that Pakistani's are loyal to Pakistan and what not.

And thus this concept, in which loyalties get changed just by virtue of a change in religion is relevant to Islam.

The christians, Jains and Budhists - all of whom were Hindus at one point of time - still have their loyalties tied to India.

You find that while most Indian Muslims are still loyal to India, there is a sizeable segment - albeit fringe - that does not.

Yet in Pakistan's case, this fringe is large. This is what is irksome. Were Muslims loyal exclusive to their motherland, there would be no issue, no terrorism.

 

[KRAIT]

Often said but not really true. Hindus turned out that way because of circumstances, any religion not even treating the adherents of its own faith as equals can hardly claim to be intrinsically secular. Hinduism was more amenable to change because the faults were so grave as to be untenable. Once it underwent changes, it became amenable to more & more changes and lost the rigidity that had characterised long periods of its existence. Hinduism is more tolerant today because the people changed, the same with the Christians of western Europe.

Then you are not talking of Hinduism, you are talking of mindset of Hindus in particular period. I agree religion evolves as people adapts according to current reality.

For a Hindu at one time, going out of the country via sea was considered as a sin, but today even a devote Hindu goes to any part of the world because of his work.

So agains I say secularism in in Hinduism, but all it depends, like you said, Hindus take their religion as. At given moment of time and place.

 

[bronxbull]

@Contrarian Sorry sir, the inherent reason is same as Serbs Christians who wanted political gain but used religion to kill Bosnians.

The inherent reason why master race concept of Germans lead to mass killings of Jews who were not considered as humans.

Same inherent reason where Hutu people snatched the babies and killed with their foots, pick the children from legs and smashed them on ground and cut the people in pieces, of Tutsi tribe.

For some its race, for some its religion, its the extremism, its not just mass hysteria, but a pre planned, well determined killing.

There is nothing wrong with Islam, Christianity, Hinduism etc.Its just people who are wrong who misinterpreted the religion and used for their own purpose.

Tell me one thing, if there is something inherently wrong with Islam, why majority of Muslims in world are less extremist than few Muslims in Iraq, Pakistan.

US wages war after war, should we call it is inherent quality of Christians dominated US ? US has killed more people than any terrorist group.

You cannot blame religion if you forget the socio-economic conditions, education, poverty, unemployment etc. as major reason of terrorism or social crime.

You are making wrong generalization. Something which is nothing but recipe of disaster.

My point is secularism is already embedded in Hinduism.

The problem of Hutu Tutsi is one engineered by Englishmen and Serbs fighting the Bosniaks is a result of age old Ottoman conquest of Slavic lands,

German movement is also different.

Not one and the same.

 

[junaid1]

As indian muslim you must be anti-pakistan and as indian hindu ,you should be anti pakistan / islam .moodi is true example .he's anti muslim , and most respected amoungst hindu's .

 

[zaxcolix]

For one reason, that the minorities should not feel spooked. As the majority in the country we have a obligation to make sure that the minorities don't feel threatened by trying to treat them equal as individuals and leave their collective representation to the drain.

WRONG ....that obligation has been paid in full by establishing a SECULAR CONSTITUTION.........There is no additional burden for the Hindus to carry.

It might result in what the Shingala majority did to their Tamil minority, yet except a few SL guys no one realizes that.

FAIL .....Shingala did what they did to the Tamils because SL did not have a secular constitution.

Though there are minor cause of friction here and there in the Indian Communal fabric, we have not gone to the extent of Muslims taking arms and fighting for a seperate nation because we gave them atonomy to some extent in the LAW, we gave them subsidy in Huj and other religious prlingrimage so that they dont feel unsecure from the majority and feel that the majority is helping them out in their religious obligation of going to MECCA once in their life time.

Nonsense ...... in fact Article 370 grants extra constitutional authority to Muslims in Kashmir. In anything ....there should have been safeguards for HINDUS in Kashmir. That was never done. If that is not Anti-Hindu ..I dont know what is.

There is no need for the Hindus to pay for Muslims Haj pilgrimage from their pocket.

If Extortion of money from the hindus who's children die of malnutrition and dont have access to quality education to pay for Muslim Haj trip is your brand of 'Secularism' ....we sure as hell don't want it.