Is Asean Losing Its Way?

[Place Of Space]

I don't know which country will gonna be bombed next. But i know for sure, whose illegal boats we gonna blown up next! illegal commie boats.




What choice do they have! they have none! They can voice their concern, but that's all.

Put your mind and concern at the right place. Tibet, mongolia, hong kong, taiwan, they all hate commie. They are struggling to break free.

You are sure they can do something more than voice their concern.

Timor mode: 1. Australia, Portugal in UN voice concerns of riots in Timor. 2. USA, China and Russia keep silence on the issue.(In most situations, China would oppose similar UN decision, but this time China govt didn't, you know the reason.) 3. Timor people declared independence. 4. UN send troops to the islands, keep stability, help to establish govt, army, police system. 5. USA, China and Australia give diploatic recognition to Timor in the first place, set up diplomatic relations with it. Nowadays Timor has more than 100 diplomatic partners, will join in Asean. Can Indoenesia govt do anything? Support and cooperate with UN.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Even if Champa allied with the Khmer Kingdom, that would not have changed the outcome of the war: the defeat and total destruction of Champa. We had a magic thing that was never used in any wars before: gunpowder weapons. The Ming chinese tried everything they could to prevent gunpowder technology transfer to Dai Viet, including imposing death penalty if violated, but thanks to some money greedy chinese, we acquired the technology and produced en masse fire arms.

Vietnam was the first country in SE Asia, with army equipped by fire arms. Our weapons were even better than those of the chinese. You can imagine how terrified and fearful our neighbors were after the downfall if Champa, the most powerful country at that time.

and bro, pls don't use the term "annamites". It is similar to "j@ps".

I can smell bullshit coming from you & I have to call it, as per protocol when confronted with the smell of Bull Feces.

We got the Cannon a lot earlier than you did:

The Javanese Majapahit Empire was arguably able to encompass much of modern day Indonesia due to its unique mastery of bronze smithing and use of a central arsenal fed by a large number of cottage industries within the immediate region. Documentary and archeological evidence indicate that Arab or Indian traders introduced gunpowder, gonnes, muskets, blunderbusses, and cannon to the Javanese, Acehnese, and Batak via long established commercial trade routes around the early to mid 14th century CE. Portuguese and Spanish invaders were unpleasantly surprised and occasionally even outgunned on occasion. The resurgent Singhasari Empire overtook Sriwijaya and later emerged as the Majapahit whose warfare featured the use of fire-arms and cannonade. Circa 1540 CE the Javanese, always alert for new weapons found the newly arrived Portuguese weaponry superior to that of the locally made variants. Javanese bronze breech-loaded swivel-guns, known as meriam, or erroneously as lantaka, was used widely by the Majapahit navy as well as by pirates and rival lords. The demise of the Majapahit empire and the dispersal of disaffected skilled bronze cannon-smiths to Brunei, modern Sumatra, Malaysia and the Philippines lead to widespread use, especially in the Makassar Strait.

This is why our empires were larger & more powerful than yours.

 

[Viet]

I can smell bullshit coming from you & I have to call it, as per protocol when confronted with the smell of Bull Feces.

We got the Cannon a lot earlier than you did:


This is why our empires were larger & more powerful than yours.

LOL where is the link of your quotes?
show me evidences of gunpowder weapons of your so-called empire that existed for a short period of time, dying like dinosaur! what was the reason for the downfall of the mighty empire?

you still eat foods by hands, don´t you?

 

[mike2000 is back]

It is not fair to juxtapose ASEAN with EU, my friend. The EU is a consortium of nations , most of which are ultra developed , whereas ASEAN is still a developing bloc with members that are still in the middle growth and modernizing schema. So we have to be sensitive and understand that dichotomy.

Lastly, Indonesia is a growing economy , as well as Vietnam, Thailand, Philippines and Malaysia. In fact these 5 major economies are the major players of ASEAN (Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam). We have to also understand the historical perspective that Indonesia brings to the table. Indonesia was one of the founding members of SEATO (now defunct) and is also one of the founding members of ASEAN. So on that relativistic point, we have to understand and appreciate that most of the membership inclusion policies written by ASEAN --- Indonesia had significantly contributed to it. Why even the ascension of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Burma were passed through because Indonesia and the other founding ASEAN members had agreed to that notion.

I suggest, my friend @Viet , you take a step back and differentiate any personal qualms you may have with some or several Indonesian members here and note that they do not represent the entire Indonesian People. I am sure that on various parameters there is high rate of collaboration and understanding between Vietnam and Indonesia. Please take that into consideration.

Please i am saying this out of love and in constructive criticism. Please do no take this as a personal correction, just a constructive criticism. I appreciate you and appreciate what you bring to this forum, and I believe that you contribute a lot to our undersanding of Vietnam and Vietnamese social issues. Thank You.



Sincerely,
@Nihonjin1051

Ahahahah....Mr diplomat always trying to make peace and bring countries/people together huh?? I like that. But sometimes also wish you would be more direct/frank like my other Japanese friend @yoshi.oda .
He was right when he saod Indonesia has to live up to its leadership position in ASEAN. Thing is, there is no country more suitable for this role than Indonesia in ASEAN. Be it by size, Population, economoially/financially. Since indonesia is the only country in the region that is big enough to warrant this role. MOST OF ALL INDONESIA IS ONE OF THE ONLY COUNTRY IN ASEAN WHO HAS ALWAYS BEEN(AND IS STILL IS) NEUTRAL. All others countries have always been either aligned to the U.S/West(Singapore,Philippines etc) or China/Russia(Vietnam, Cambodia etc) to some extent,this gives indonesia more credibility. So in this regard i will say Indonesia is the country that is best placed to mediate between various parties in case of any conflict in the region. if not indoensia who else will say China or the U.S trust in mediating between various parties in SCS issue?

However, i do understand my vietnamese friends hostility towards Indonesia being a leader in ASEAN. Since Vietnam also has ambitions of being a big/great power in its own right. However Vietnam lacks the economic,financial,diplomatic weight, and credibility(since its not really neutral) to be one in the region. Think Vietnam should just bide its time, since its growing quite fast and developing quickly as well. So just need to remain focus on this and everything else will come naturally.

Anyway, its nornal to see competition and rivalries among peers countries like this. This can be seen even among European powers France, Germany, Britain(in the past and lesser extent today), betwen China and Japan , Turkey,KSA and Iran etc. Etc. So nothing surprising.

 

[Indos]

Ahahahah....Mr diplomat always trying to make peace and bring countries/people together huh?? I like that. But sometimes also wish you would be more direct/frank like my other Japanese friend @yoshi.oda .
He was right when he saod Indonesia has to live up to its leadership position in ASEAN. Thing is, there is no country more suitable for this role than Indonesia in ASEAN. Be it by size, Population, economoially/financially. Since indonesia is the only country in the region that is big enough to warrant this role. MOST OF ALL INDONESIA IS ONE OF THE ONLY COUNTRY IN ASEAN WHO HAS ALWAYS BEEN(AND IS STILL IS) NEUTRAL. All others countries have always been either aligned to the U.S/West(Singapore,Philippines etc) or China/Russia(Vietnam, Cambodia etc) to some extent,this gives indonesia more credibility. So in this regard i will say Indonesia is the country that is best placed to mediate between various parties in case of any conflict in the region. if not indoensia who else will say China or the U.S trust in mediating between various parties in SCS issue?

However, i do understand my vietnamese friends hostility towards Indonesia being a leader in ASEAN. Since Vietnam also has ambitions of being a big/great power in its own right. However Vietnam lacks the economic,financial,diplomatic weight, and credibility(since its not really neutral) to be one in the region. Think Vietnam should just bide its time, since its growing quite fast and developing quickly as well. So just need to remain focus on this and everything else will come naturally.

Anyway, its nornal to see competition and rivalries among peers countries like this. This can be seen even among European powers France, Germany, Britain(in the past and lesser extent today), betwen China and Japan , Turkey,KSA and Iran etc. Etc. So nothing surprising.

Good and fair analysis

 

[Viet]

Ahahahah....Mr diplomat always trying to make peace and bring countries/people together huh?? I like that. But sometimes also wish you would be more direct/frank like my other Japanese friend @yoshi.oda .
He was right when he saod Indonesia has to live up to its leadership position in ASEAN. Thing is, there is no country more suitable for this role than Indonesia in ASEAN. Be it by size, Population, economoially/financially. Since indonesia is the only country in the region that is big enough to warrant this role. MOST OF ALL INDONESIA IS ONE OF THE ONLY COUNTRY IN ASEAN WHO HAS ALWAYS BEEN(AND IS STILL IS) NEUTRAL. All others countries have always been either aligned to the U.S/West(Singapore,Philippines etc) or China/Russia(Vietnam, Cambodia etc) to some extent,this gives indonesia more credibility. So in this regard i will say Indonesia is the country that is best placed to mediate between various parties in case of any conflict in the region. if not indoensia who else will say China or the U.S trust in mediating between various parties in SCS issue?

However, i do understand my vietnamese friends hostility towards Indonesia being a leader in ASEAN. Since Vietnam also has ambitions of being a big/great power in its own right. However Vietnam lacks the economic,financial,diplomatic weight, and credibility(since its not really neutral) to be one in the region. Think Vietnam should just bide its time, since its growing quite fast and developing quickly as well. So just need to remain focus on this and everything else will come naturally.

Anyway, its nornal to see competition and rivalries among peers countries like this. This can be seen even among European powers France, Germany, Britain(in the past and lesser extent today), betwen China and Japan , Turkey,KSA and Iran etc. Etc. So nothing surprising.

bro, I´m tired to say, but anyway I say here again: Asean is a economic club of equals, rotating chairmanship, decision made based on consensus of all members, if someone says otherwise, I suggest him or her to visit a doctor.

no, Indo is not the leader of Asean. it has no money, no power, neither economic nor military nor diplomacy. her new elected government advances a nationalistic driven policy, that pushes the country slowly into a disaster. that is not what we want in Vietnam and elsewhere.

Neutrality is nothing. the swiss is neutral. and?

Do you seriously think China would accept Indonesia as a broker for peace in the SC Sea mess? what a delusion! China repeatly states NON CLAIMANTS MUST STAY OUT, from America to Japan to India. Will Indonesia want to challenge China? I don´t think the chinese have humour.

and if nobody has noticed, we have a defacto leader already in place, that isn´t even a member of Asean: China.

in contrast to Indo, China has everything that needs to fullfill the job: economic clout, tons of money, diplomacy and military power. she can bribe Cambodia or other members every year to sabotage any unfriendly agenda. she makes huge investments in the region. chinese warships will soon outnumber sharks in the SC Sea. yes, there is a chance: China will be the only country, that would be accepted as leader of the club. by all members including Vietnam.

That is the reality. Has nothing to do of what you said "hostility towards Indonesia."

 

[Cao Đài]

Ahahahah....Mr diplomat always trying to make peace and bring countries/people together huh?? I like that. But sometimes also wish you would be more direct/frank like my other Japanese friend @yoshi.oda .
He was right when he saod Indonesia has to live up to its leadership position in ASEAN. Thing is, there is no country more suitable for this role than Indonesia in ASEAN. Be it by size, Population, economoially/financially. Since indonesia is the only country in the region that is big enough to warrant this role. MOST OF ALL INDONESIA IS ONE OF THE ONLY COUNTRY IN ASEAN WHO HAS ALWAYS BEEN(AND IS STILL IS) NEUTRAL. All others countries have always been either aligned to the U.S/West(Singapore,Philippines etc) or China/Russia(Vietnam, Cambodia etc) to some extent,this gives indonesia more credibility. So in this regard i will say Indonesia is the country that is best placed to mediate between various parties in case of any conflict in the region. if not indoensia who else will say China or the U.S trust in mediating between various parties in SCS issue?

However, i do understand my vietnamese friends hostility towards Indonesia being a leader in ASEAN. Since Vietnam also has ambitions of being a big/great power in its own right. However Vietnam lacks the economic,financial,diplomatic weight, and credibility(since its not really neutral) to be one in the region. Think Vietnam should just bide its time, since its growing quite fast and developing quickly as well. So just need to remain focus on this and everything else will come naturally.

Anyway, its nornal to see competition and rivalries among peers countries like this. This can be seen even among European powers France, Germany, Britain(in the past and lesser extent today), betwen China and Japan , Turkey,KSA and Iran etc. Etc. So nothing surprising.

One thing for you though, Indonesia is a "non-aligned country" not "neutral country", neutral country is the country like Switzerland. You must know it well @mike2000 is back because u are in Europe , be specific.

Most of South-East Asia countries are hedging their bet on both sides. Let's considered Singapore..Even as it works to conclude the TPP and warns America of the danger of withdrawal from Asia, it is negotiating assiduously to complete the China-led RCEP.

Also, takes account of SEA countries current account and their trading partner, it is make sense for their aligned and favour certain country isn't it. The case of Indonesia, it is Japan, and she was the most pro-Japanese country in the world.

Well, the case of @Viet hostility, you cannot applied to all other people in the same country and sum them up like a bunch of people with no different character and view point. About that Leadership things, every members countries got it turn to lead, u have ASEAN chairmanship for that and it change years by years in order. This year is Malaysia turn

About @Nihonjin1051, Well you know generally Japanese people don't like direct confront with other people and they are indeed very polite, not always express their true feeling like Korean. Everything must be in order and formal, i feel groups and organisations are much more important than family in Japan

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

bro, I´m tired to say, but anyway I say here again: Asean is a economic club of equals, rotating chairmanship, decision made based on consensus of all members, if someone says otherwise, I suggest him or her to visit a doctor.

no, Indo is not the leader of Asean. it has no money, no power, neither economic nor military nor diplomacy. her new elected government advances a nationalistic driven policy, that pushes the country slowly into a disaster. that is not what we want in Vietnam and elsewhere.

Neutrality is nothing. the swiss is neutral. and?

Do you seriously think China would accept Indonesia as a broker for peace in the SC Sea mess? what a delusion! China repeatly states NON CLAIMANTS MUST STAY OUT, from America to Japan to India. Will Indonesia want to challenge China? I don´t think the chinese have humour.

and if nobody has noticed, we have a defacto leader already in place, that isn´t even a member of Asean: China.

in contrast to Indo, China has everything that needs to fullfill the job: economic clout, tons of money, diplomacy and military power. she can bribe Cambodia or other members every year to sabotage any unfriendly agenda. she makes huge investments in the region. chinese warships will soon outnumber sharks in the SC Sea. yes, there is a chance: China will be the only country, that would be accepted as leader of the club. by all members including Vietnam.

That is the reality. Has nothing to do of what you said "hostility towards Indonesia."

We are not Equal. Never considers your country to be our equal.

Primus inter pares (Ancient Greek: Πρῶτος μεταξὺ ἴσων, prōtos metaxỳ ísōn) is a Latin phrase meaning first among equals
Primus inter pares - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Viet]

We are not Equal. Never considers your country to be our equal.

Primus inter pares (Ancient Greek: Πρῶτος μεταξὺ ἴσων, prōtos metaxỳ ísōn) is a Latin phrase meaning first among equals
Primus inter pares - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

go and seek medical help.
is it wrong when I say Asean is based on consensus made by all members?

no matter if you see us as equal or not. our people in Vietnam don´t even know where your country lies.

the malays look down on you because you rely on money of cheap maids being sent to them. even your president knows it: there are 3 countries in the world, that send maids to serve others, and one is Indonesia.
Malaysia yet to decide on salary increase for Indonesian maids | Astro Awani

 

[pr1v4t33r]

Fortunately, we live in democracy era... we don't need everyone approval, just 50%+1 is enough to win. When majority believe Indonesia is the leader, then it's settled.

Who decide what neutrality is? some random person or our policy maker and expert?
Indonesia decide that our neutrality means, free and active foreign policy that is not dictated by foreign superpower agenda. But we persue our own goals and our own dreams. We decide what good for us and what to do.

If we believe that sinking illegal fishing boats in our water is good for us then nobody can prevent that from happening. If we believe that executing drug smugglers is good, then we will ensure that will happen.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Fortunately, we live in democracy era... we don't need everyone approval, just 50%+1 is enough to win. When majority believe Indonesia is the leader, then it's settled.

Majority already do even Vietnam has already accepted our leadership role in ASEAN when they need our help with their SCS issue. Only Viet or the other naysayers are in in the minority & we can just ignore them because their opinion is just false.

 

[Aepsilons]

Let's focus on new emerging news that highlights ASEAN cooperation and contribution. We are all waiting time and energy on negatives and putting each other down.

Vietnamese and Indonesians are brothers. They have lived as neighbors for millennia , and when we are dead, the future generations still will live together as neighbors and cultural peers. In the end our subjectivity doesn't really matter since our personal views are just constrained to the times we live in.

Let's remember that

 

[Sliver]

without the emergence of Indonesia or Malaysia to be strong enough to stand a political skirmish with China (please note - not a military conflict but a political one), ASEAN will largely be china plus others. As much as China wants to believe that ASEAN needs China but not vice versa, China needs ASEAN to be a stepping stone for its ambitious regional and global dominance role.

 

[Aepsilons]

without the emergence of Indonesia or Malaysia to be strong enough to stand a political skirmish with China (please note - not a military conflict but a political one), ASEAN will largely be china plus others. As much as China wants to believe that ASEAN needs China but not vice versa, China needs ASEAN to be a stepping stone for its ambitious regional and global dominance role.

Of course. Bilateral trade between China and ASEAN is north of $450 Billion. Who can ignore such trade levels especially when the balance of trade is with Beijing?

ASEAN is China's second largest trading partner.

 

[Sliver]

Of course. Bilateral trade between China and ASEAN is north of $450 Billion. Who can ignore such trade levels especially when the balance of trade is with Beijing?

ASEAN is China's second largest trading partner.

The rate at which China was going in the past few decades, balance of trade seems to be the first step towards leveraging in political arm twisting. Beijing may give in to some superficial economic concessions for long term political gains. Which is why - a stronger Indonesia or Malaysia which can withstand such tactics to forego short term gains for long term gains is the need for a balanced ASEAN. until then, its still China plus others.