Is Asean Losing Its Way?

[prima99]

You can orginated back to the European holocast of Malay in Indoenesia, Australia if you want to talk about things half century ago.
There is no commie terrorist, and there were and are tons of muslim terrorist.

you didn't read the link's title?

or are you in denial of such fact?

 

[Aepsilons]

@pr1v4t33r ,


Let's get back to subject matter. I know that Jakarta and Manila recently concluded a maritime boundary treaty. Had the same happened between Jakarta and Kuala Lumpur ?

 

[prima99]

you know the world history, from 10th century to today, it is muslim terrorism. from 16th to 20th century, it's christian terrorism, communism terrorism was the most short period. ONLY the muslim terrorism still actively damage all around the world.

mmhmm

Mass killings under Communist regimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Communist regimes "Communist regimes" refers to those countries who declared themselves to be socialist states under the Marxist-Leninist, Stalinist, or Maoist definition (in other words, "communist states") at some point in their history.

Scholars use several different terms to describe the intentional killing of large numbers of noncombatants.[3][4] The following have been used to describe killing by Communist governments:

• Genocide — under the Genocide Convention, the crime of genocide does not apply to the mass killing of political and social groups. Protection of political groups was eliminated from the UN resolution after a second vote, because many states, including Stalin's USSR,[5] anticipated that clause to apply unneeded limitations to their right to suppress internal disturbances.[6]
• Politicide — the term "politicide" is used to describe the killing of political or economic groups that would otherwise be covered by the Genocide Convention.[7] Manus I. Midlarsky uses the term "politicide" to describe an arc of mass killings from the western parts of the Soviet Union to China and Cambodia.[8] In his book The killing trap: genocide in the twentieth century Midlarsky raises similarities between the killings of Stalin and Pol Pot.[9]
• Democide — R. J. Rummel coined the term "democide", which includes genocide, politicide, and mass murder.[10] Helen Fein has termed the mass state killings in the Soviet Union and Cambodia as "genocide and democide."[11] Frank Wayman and Atsushi Tago have shown the significance of terminology in that, depending on the use of democide (generalised state-sponsored killing) or politicide (eliminating groups who are politically opposed) as the criterion for inclusion in a data-set, statistical analyses seeking to establish a connection between mass killings can produce very different results, including the significance or otherwise of regime type.[page needed][12]
• Crime against humanity — Jacques Semelin and Michael Mann[13] believe that "crime against humanity" is more appropriate than "genocide" or "politicide" when speaking of violence by Communist regimes.[14]
• Classicide — Michael Mann has proposed the term "classicide" to mean the "intended mass killing of entire social classes".[15]
• Terror — Stephen Wheatcroft notes that, in the case of the Soviet Union, terms such as "the terror", "the purges", and "repression" (the latter mostly in common Russian) colloquially refer to the same events and he believes the most neutral terms are "repression" and "mass killings".[4]
• Mass killing — this term has been defined by Benjamin Valentino as "the intentional killing of a massive number of noncombatants", where a "massive number" is defined as at least 50,000 intentional deaths over the course of five years or less.[16] He applies this definition to the cases of Stalin's USSR, the PRC under Mao, and Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, while admitting that mass killings on a smaller scale also appear to have been carried out by regimes in North Korea, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, and Africa.[17]
• Communist holocaust — the United States Congress has referred to the mass killings collectively as "an unprecedented imperial communist holocaust"[18][19] while the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation established by the United States Congress refers to this subject as the "Communist holocaust".[20] The term "Red Holocaust" has been used by German historian Horst Möller; Steven Rosefielde has published a book on this subject titled Red Holocaust.[21][22]

 

[Aepsilons]

We make efforts to accelerate the maritime boundary treaty with Malaysia, but the devil is always in the detail.

I see that Jakarta and Manila are indeed very close. I think part solution Manila needs is collaboration with Indonesia to help solve Mindanao. Any talks if Jalarta will step in to help Filipinas in grass roots community level ?

 

[Viet]

That's excessive, my friend. Then again, such blood wars in history were not uncommon.

they killed one of our Tran kings. that was the price they paid for.
they started the war, we ended it.

Yea, terrorism is horribe, so we will make sure to wipe out all commie terrorist within our reach.

most recent terrorism events worldwide have islamist root. islamists, muslim extremists, faith bigot. they mostly are cowards, targeting civilians, seeking heaven, virgins by killing innocents. that is an undeniedable fact. even, your army is funded, trained to kill islamists, not commie as you say.

Indonesia provides stability in ASEAN, it is the thing that matters most. Money cannot buy stability just like what happens in Syria. First, we combat communism here in Indonesia. And then we helped Malaysia to curb its communist rebel in Malaysia part of Borneo island. Bring down Fretilin power in East Timor. All of that efforts make the region become more interesting and stable. Clearing communism in Malaysia will affect the safety of Singapore as well. The region thus has adopted market system since long time ago that make it attractive to investors from the west camp, including Japan and Taiwan since 1980's.

What we have Today in the region is due to what we did in the past. (Edit: Of course there is God hands as well)

So, some people need to think deeper before talking. Lack of holistic thinking and inability to see the bottom of the matter will result in poor analysis and judgement.

you bring stability in Asean?

you hided like a coward when the chinese deployed an oil rig into our waters, along with warships, aircraft, missiles, bringing both countries VN and CN on the brink of armed confrontation.

where are you when China constantly harrasses our fishermen, sinking our ships?

where are you when the chinese seized the shoal from the Philippines?

where were you when the region from China, to Korea to Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand were in chaos in almost of the later part of the last century?

where were you in times of cambodia genocide?

border conflicts between Thailand and Laos? between Thailand and Cambodia?

you cite your domectic fight against communism, separatism, your problems in your country as key contribution, that makes you to a boss of Asean?

I bet if a war breaks out tomorrow in the SC sea, with all the people in your neighborhood spilling in bloodshed, you continue to hide in the toilette and dream from being the boss.

 

[Aepsilons]

they killed one of our Tran kings. that was the price they paid for.
they started the war, we ended it.

Reminds me of the Punic Wars. In the end Rome conquered Carthage. Carthage had to be sacked in order for Rome to grow.

 

[Indos]

you bring stability in Asean?

you hided like a coward when the chinese deployed an oil rig into our waters, along with warships, aircraft, missiles, bringing both countries VN and CN on the brink of armed confrontation.

where are you when China constantly harrasses our fishermen, sinking our ships?

where are you when the chinese seized the shoal from the Philippines?

where were you when the region from China, to Korea to Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand were in chaos in almost of the later part of the last century?

where were you in times of cambodia genocide?

border conflicts between Thailand and Laos? between Thailand and Cambodia?

you cite your domectic fight against communism, separatism, your problems in your country as key contribution, that makes you to a boss of Asean?

I bet if a war breaks out tomorrow in the SC sea, with all the people in your neighborhood spilling in bloodshed, you continue to hide in the toilette and dream from being the boss.

Thank you for bringing my post again in this page, reasonable people know which post has better rational......



Oya, Indonesia also helps Vietnamese refugees so people like you can reside in Germany ........

Galang Refugee Camp accommodated Indochineserefugees from 1979 to 1996 on Galang Island in the Riau Islands of Indonesia.[1] It is estimated that around 250,000 refugees passed through Galang during this period.[2]

Galang Refugee Camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Aepsilons]

they killed one of our Tran kings. that was the price they paid for.
they started the war, we ended it.

Also one of the issues with the Chams was that they never secured an ally base. When they were not at war with the Khmers in Angkor [Lovek], they were at war with the Annamites in Dia Viet. So in other words they exhausted their man power and population with their constant war warfare. The Annamites definitely were masters of land warfare as they were heavily Sinicized and implemented Chinese war strategies against the Chams. However let us not forget the fact that during the last years of Champa's existence as a nation-state, their population was literally a fraction of Dai Viet's.

The Chams should have, had they been wiser, formed an alliance with the Khmers to secure a southern front and halt Vietic expansion to the south. Alas, the Chams were not that long sighted in their views. Perhaps their being subsumed into Dai Viet was just an eventuality.

To the right (Cham Navy) fighting against their ancient foe (to the left; the Khmer navy)

The Cham army razing the city of Angkor to the ground.

 

[Nike]

Also one of the issues with the Chams was that they never secured an ally base. When they were not at war with the Khmers in Angkor [Lovek], they were at war with the Annamites in Dia Viet. So in other words they exhausted their man power and population with their constant war warfare. The Annamites definitely were masters of land warfare as they were heavily Sinicized and implemented Chinese war strategies against the Chams. However let us not forget the fact that during the last years of Champa's existence as a nation-state, their population was literally a fraction of Dai Viet's.

The Chams should have, had they been wiser, formed an alliance with the Khmers to secure a southern front and halt Vietic expansion to the south. Alas, the Chams were not that long sighted in their views. Perhaps their being subsumed into Dai Viet was just an eventuality.

To the right (Cham Navy) fighting against their ancient foe (to the left; the Khmer navy)

The Cham army razing the city of Angkor to the ground.

Cham is seafaring people, they had a lot similarities with Indonesian Kingdoms in Java and Sumatra at the times. They had been a long time ally with Sumatran Srivijaya, Javanese Kediri Kingdom and Majapahit, and their ties still continue that's why they can mustered a large Naval forces especially when compared to their neighbor.

 

[Aepsilons]

Cham is seafaring people, they had a lot similarities with Indonesian Kingdoms in Java and Sumatra at the times. They had been a long time ally with Sumatran Srivijaya, Javanese Kediri Kingdom and Majapahit, and their ties still continue that's why they can mustered a large Naval forces especially when compared to their neighbor.

You're right, in fact the appearance of the Cham people in what is now Southern Vietnam actually happened in the earlier part of the 1st millenia C.E. I suppose the Cham presence was a Malay or Austronesian colonization attempt of the Submekong region. Aside from the Malays in what is now Peninsular Malaysia, the Malays also had a presence in Champa.

The fact that they fought the Annamites and the Khmers at the same time, means that they were a warlike people.

 

[Nike]

You're right, in fact the appearance of the Cham people in what is now Southern Vietnam actually happened in the earlier part of the 1st millenia C.E. I suppose the Cham presence was a Malay or Austronesian colonization attempt of the Submekong region. Aside from the Malays in what is now Peninsular Malaysia, the Malays also had a presence in Champa.

The fact that they fought the Annamites and the Khmers at the same time, means that they were a warlike people.

they are quite like Javanese people, much suicidal people

 

[Cossack25A1]

Reminds me of the Punic Wars. In the end Rome conquered Carthage. Carthage had to be sacked in order for Rome to grow.

Old wars are fought that way - in order to win, one must be completely subjugated, razing down everything in their (conquerors) sights.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

Indonesian army are trained to hunt down and kill terrorist, not islamist, don't confuse yourself. In the past, commie fill the terrorist role, and we grant them death, 1 million of them. Today, this scum hiding like rats in their stronghold up north. Every now and then, their illegal boats entering our water and we happily sink em down to the bottom of the sea.

We bring stability in ASEAN by keeping our neutrality and NOT punching our weight around or harassing our ASEAN neighbor.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Indonesian army are trained to hunt down and kill terrorist, not islamist, don't confuse yourself. In the past, commie fill the terrorist role, and we grant them death, 1 million of them. Today, this scum hiding like rats in thier stronghold up north. Every now and then, their illegal boats entering our water and we happily sink em down to the bottom of the sea.

We bring stability in ASEAN by keeping our neutrality and NOT punching our weight around.

Leave the Vietnamese here alone, brah. You know they can't be reasoned with like us. Leave them to their dream of a "Mekong Empire," their "TPP" or their new "Gang of Five." Of which I will call bull on everyone especially the last one where they pretty much traded Indonesian benevolent Leadership for the Junta in Bangkok.

 

[Viet]

Also one of the issues with the Chams was that they never secured an ally base. When they were not at war with the Khmers in Angkor [Lovek], they were at war with the Annamites in Dia Viet. So in other words they exhausted their man power and population with their constant war warfare. The Annamites definitely were masters of land warfare as they were heavily Sinicized and implemented Chinese war strategies against the Chams. However let us not forget the fact that during the last years of Champa's existence as a nation-state, their population was literally a fraction of Dai Viet's.

The Chams should have, had they been wiser, formed an alliance with the Khmers to secure a southern front and halt Vietic expansion to the south. Alas, the Chams were not that long sighted in their views. Perhaps their being subsumed into Dai Viet was just an eventuality.

To the right (Cham Navy) fighting against their ancient foe (to the left; the Khmer navy)

The Cham army razing the city of Angkor to the ground.

Even if Champa allied with the Khmer Kingdom, that would not have changed the outcome of the war: the defeat and total destruction of Champa. We had a magic thing that was never used in any wars before: gunpowder weapons. The Ming chinese tried everything they could to prevent gunpowder technology transfer to Dai Viet, including imposing death penalty if violated, but thanks to some money greedy chinese, we acquired the technology and produced en masse fire arms.

Vietnam was the first country in SE Asia, with army equipped by fire arms. Our weapons were even better than those of the chinese. You can imagine how terrified and fearful our neighbors were after the downfall if Champa, the most powerful country at that time.

and bro, pls don't use the term "annamites". It is similar to "j@ps".