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Iranians vs Arabs - The Dilemma for the Muslim World

I repeat. It will benefit all Muslims if all Muslims got along with each other. Only Muslims would understand this.

Omar, Sir! Your sentiment has already been expressed by that great philosopher Rodney King. To wit:

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?"

You don't have to be a Muslim to understand the value of civility and tolerance of minor differences.
 
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why should we let them be - this issue affects pakistan and if they do go into open conflict what does pakistan do without offending one or the other?

If they do go into open conflict, we would be most effective in defusing the conflict if we were friends with both.

We are Pakistanis. We are not Arab, we are not Persian and we are not Indians. Each of those heritages (plus others like Pakhtun and Turkish) is important in its own right and I really don't understand why people want to place one above the others. Certainly Arab culture will always have a special place in our hearts because of Islam and the Qur'an, but it doesn't mean we have to deny other heritage.

As for unity amongst Muslims, we all wish for that, but Pakistan is not the defender of Islam. That was the sales pitch for recruitment against the Soviets in the 80s, but it is well past its expiration date. Certainly no one else in the Muslim world views us that way. It's time we got a reality check and start fixing our own house before worrying about others.

The other part about unity, I will repeat the example of the European Union. They are united because they are not hung up on ethnicity and religion. How long do you think the EU would remain united if the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox and the Catholics and the Anglicans and everyone else started claiming to be the standard bearer of Christianity?
 
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The other part about unity, I will repeat the example of the European Union. They are united because they are not hung up on ethnicity and religion. How long do you think the EU would remain united if the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox and the Catholics and the Anglicans and everyone else started claiming to be the standard bearer of Christianity?

Which is precisely why I am advocating for a secular cooperation. If Pakistan, Iran and Central Asian states become secular in outlook and governance on the lines of Turkey, we can see a great boost in mutual cooperation. Lets leave the religious and ethnic baggage aside and start working to improve our future.
 
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Omar, Sir! Your sentiment has already been expressed by that great philosopher Rodney King. To wit:

"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?"

You don't have to be a Muslim to understand the value of civility and tolerance of minor differences.

so why have the americans killed so many people - hard to get along with people who kill you and then show no contrition - you want a hug for this? a cup of tea?

If they do go into open conflict, we would be most effective in defusing the conflict if we were friends with both.


what...you mean pak can use its amazing diplomatic skills to calm tensions? what will really happen is pak will do what uncle sam tells them to do which is side with the saudi's


what i would like is for pak to support the nation that is being provoked and subject to aggression , could act as a deterrent :pakistan::smokin:


The other part about unity, I will repeat the example of the European Union. They are united because they are not hung up on ethnicity and religion. How long do you think the EU would remain united if the Greek Orthodox and the Russian Orthodox and the Catholics and the Anglicans and everyone else started claiming to be the standard bearer of Christianity?

interesting point about europe - europe is united by a shared experience - that is to say religion, renaissance and industrial revolution - each one of those is an important aspect to its evolution - they are so content with the past that they can move ahead with the future - power struggles with one another are not relevant in todays time.

on the other hands the arabs/iranians indulge themselves in damaging pretensions of being regional powers which is totally unlike european powers - again, why do they think they can do this as the cost of the greater good - do they need a world war to come to their senses like europe?
 
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i think as much as pakistani's and bharati's bark at each other iranians and arabs can match us, if not surpass us.

the arabs looks like they are more likely to mobilise for a fight against the iranians than they are the israeli's - go figure?


but my question is why should pakistani's tolerate it - both countries claim to be islamic, in fact hyper islamic - yet how is it that islam is forgotten and historical grudges based on race become the issue - in that sense this hyper islam is nothing more than a front, a pseudo islam.

my contention is that a unified islam world will bring greater prosperity for the islamic world (and pakistan)- an islamic world that is being pulled apart by its two poles is causing great damage to the region - and pakistan is slap bang in the middle

why do a lot of arabs and iranians pretend that they care about islamic unity when they can barely get on with one another?

iranians are shias and arabs are sunnis .....they will NEVER co-exist .:disagree:
 
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iranians are shias and arabs are sunnis .....they will NEVER co-exist .:disagree:

So? thts not a reason.Sunni-shia marriages are quiet common in Pakistan.... and we and Iran(Pakistan is sunni and iran is shia) and still we have good relations..
 
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iranians are shias and arabs are sunnis .....they will NEVER co-exist .:disagree:

They are Iranians of every major religious denomination-- be it Sunn'ites, Christians of various schools and even a small but present community of Zoroastrians. Also, the same is true for Arabs in which case I must point out there is a sizable population of Shi'a Arabs as well. Your logic and statement are both flawed.
 
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Which is precisely why I am advocating for a secular cooperation. If Pakistan, Iran and Central Asian states become secular in outlook and governance on the lines of Turkey, we can see a great boost in mutual cooperation. Lets leave the religious and ethnic baggage aside and start working to improve our future.

Exactly.
We have to get past this obsession with facade piety that is rampant in Pakistani culture. Just saying "Allah haafiz" and then taking a bribe is not very Muslim. The Indonesians, Malaysians and others are not any less Muslim because they don't go around claiming to be champions of Islam.

what...you mean pak can use its amazing diplomatic skills to calm tensions?

No. I am saying that if either side perceives us to be in the other's camp, they will not even listen to us. Only if both sides believe in our neutrality will anyone listen to us.

what will really happen is pak will do what uncle sam tells them to do which is side with the saudi's

All the more reason to become self-reliant and guide our own foreign policy.

what i would like is for pak to support the nation that is being provoked and subject to aggression , could act as a deterrent :pakistan::smokin:

It is rarely that simple; usually both sides are at fault.
 
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pasban - why do iranians not have the peace with arabs in todays world - what is the basis for this rivalry? (in your opinion?)
 
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Pakistan has nothing in common with these 2 countries except Islam.As such we should just worry about our country instead of talking like we're thaikidar of Muslim world.Pakistanis Interests should lie with Pakistan only.
 
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Pakistan has nothing in common with these 2 countries except Islam.As such we should just worry about our country instead of talking like we're thaikidar of Muslim world.Pakistanis Interests should lie with Pakistan only.

it would be in my opinion demonstrating a major lack of strategic thought if pakistan does not consider the saudi/iranian relationship, we are not malaysia in a far away place, islam or no islam these are two significant countries for pakistan - seems to me that having a view of "minding our own business" is a bit dumb.
 
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iranians are shias and arabs are sunnis .....they will NEVER co-exist .:disagree:

In Pakistan they both co-exist. In Arab world u will find a lot of examples where both the communities live together and they have relationships among each other :disagree:
 
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pasban - why do iranians not have the peace with arabs in todays world - what is the basis for this rivalry? (in your opinion?)

Actually, it's very one-sided to saw that Iran is not at peace with Arabs for the same could be argued in reverse as well. Also, there are many Arabs and Arab groups which are very much in harmony with Iran-- as a small example we can point out to the Iranian Arab community centered around southern Iran where they form a majority.

Anyhow briefly,

Prior to the Islamic revolution, the puppet Shah of Iran, closely allied himself to the state of Israel despite much angst at it at home. This was more pronounced during the Arab-Israeli wars. This then kept a very different balance in the Middle East with the Shah and Israel being the primary allies within the region. For it's part Israel followed a policy which was often termed an alliance of the periphery, seeking close ties with outlying states of the region to offset it's position within the region. This brought about ties with Iran and Turkey. The Shah's apparent near ethnic based chauvinism (though, himself not being Persian) was matched at the time by a rise in pan-Arabism which ultimately came to it's full brunt during the Arab-Israeli conflicts and later the Iran-Iraq war. This as such, created much tension. In order to maintain the fragile balance at the other end of the spectrum, the US also actively supported selected Arab states. The geo-politics were played out both using an ethnic and religious basis from time to time depending on individual circumstance.

The coming on the Islamic revolution turned that balance upside down. The loss of Iran from a set group changed the paradigm completely. Having toppled a monarch, the revolutionaries were ardently anti-monarchy, which they termed as being anti-imperialism, and were against foreign intervention in the region. Also, given the Islamic backdrop of the revolution, they were compelled by religious principles. This became of great concern not only to external players but powers within the region around the Persian Gulf where the key Arab states were all under monarchies themselves. This would change the politics of the region entirely. The monarchical Arab states were most concerned and this culminated in their heavy support of chauvinistic and expansionist Saddam Hussein. This only created further rift.

Concerning the mid-90s and beyond, I see an imbalance. For it's part since the mid-90s Iran has been attempting to formalize relations further. This led to to development of closer ties with Syria, Lebanon and most recently Iraq, which is an area still developing. Also, Iran sent a delegation to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain and so forth. The response in my view hasn't been equal. Also, Iranian clergy has been releasing statements and verdicts to down-play the religious divide. At it's core, the principles of the revolution stand in stark contrast to the ruling elements in these said states-- monarchies with the addition of being closely tied to the US and it's allies. This also gets played in a sectarian sense, because apart from Lebanon, Yemen and Iran, the remainder of the Arab Shi'a population of the Middle-East resides bordering the Persian Gulf region with Iran at the opposite shore. States like Qatar, Iraq, Bahrain and Kuwait have Shi'a majorities and the Shi'a minority of larger states like Saudi Arabia are also based in the eastern end of the country. This has kept a thought of an Iranian inspired Shi'a uprising or revolution in the mindset of the ruling elite who all belong to a different religious school. With the coming of an Islamic revolution in Iran, seen as a Shi'a revolution, this fear was felt to be more substantiated. Moreover, this very region is the oil producing basin of the world. Understandably, as such, there are numerous vested interests involved.
 
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Which is precisely why I am advocating for a secular cooperation. If Pakistan, Iran and Central Asian states become secular in outlook and governance on the lines of Turkey, we can see a great boost in mutual cooperation. Lets leave the religious and ethnic baggage aside and start working to improve our future.

I think there needs to be a new word for Secularism in Pakistan because apparently the word has been completely hijacked. 90% of the people who oppose secularism don't even know what exactly the word means and some how associate it with Atheism. Even on these boards there are many people who are like.. 'Secularism no way we don't want Atheism'
 
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The Arab-Persian "tension" could be solved very simply: Have 'Abd al-'Aziz ibn 'Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Lateef Aal ash-Shaikh sincerely, and I mean sincerely, apologize for the murder of Hussein at Karbala. Problem solved.

A little aside but considering your avatar i couldnt help thinking of " There are none so blind as those that will not see" i think the wait for such an appology will be a long time coming.

Back on topic though, Iran and Iraq are the two proverbial elephants in the tent. It is in neithers interest to start an open conflict no matter how hard they are going at each other covertly.

The only place for Pakistan and in fact most of the world is to get the heck out of the tent if they do start fighting. Lets face it no matter which side you pick to support they will not remember long any assistance but the other side would forever brand you as apostate for an attack on the Ummah.
 
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