Iranian military engine development news and updates

[Blue In Green]

And....

Are these supposed to be copies or just on display?

 

[Mithridates]

Are these supposed to be copies or just on display?

just displays.

 

[Philosopher]

Indigenous small piston engines for UAVs made by army:
these piston engines from 40 to 400 cc, designed and built with a torque of 4000 rpm, have a power of 4 to 40 hp and can be installed on a variety of drones.

This piston engine in the 40 cc category is capable of processing a 30 kg drone at an altitude of 12 thousand feet.

 

[aryobarzan]

Indigenous small piston engines for UAVs made by army:
these piston engines from 40 to 400 cc, designed and built with a torque of 4000 rpm, have a power of 4 to 40 hp and can be installed on a variety of drones.

This piston engine in the 40 cc category is capable of processing a 30 kg drone at an altitude of 12 thousand feet.

View attachment 674268

It is time to use these engines for commercial applications as well...why not having Iranian chain saw..or lawn movers or small tractors..my Kubota tractor has a 34 hp engine . Agricultural implements and construction equipment can also use these small engines...all is needed some investment by private sector to make them happen.

 

[Philosopher]

 

[skyshadow]

View attachment 674310View attachment 674311View attachment 674312View attachment 674313

it's the same engine that Germany band us from importing couple of days ago

 

[EvilWesteners]

jahesh:

View attachment 662499

MAX output thrust: 700 kgf

Iran's military industrial complex has now proven without a shadow of a doubt, that it has the technical knowledge and ability to build turbine engine. Most of this technology is also transferred from Iran's cooperation with German turbine industry and Iran's work at the highest level, with MAPNA. Iran also has a long history (the famous father and son, although only the son is alive today), who have accomplished almost miracles and could have done so much more, if they had been given more support, or I should proper support.

In my humble opinion, I think Iran should not be trying to develop RD-33 (at least not at first or at a first priority). Iran also should not try to manufacture J79, as this is a total waste and borderline absurd.

For Iran's existing F4s, Iran should start manufacturing (either getting license or by copy/trial and error reverse engineering) the engine AL21F. First, Iran already has tremendous experience with this engine (Su17/22, and Su24). This engine although an old engine from 1970s, it still has many advantages over J79 and can hold its own against even against modern turbofans (to a certain degree). The higher heat exhust is also not an issue for demostic air defence air combat scenarios, in most cases. A fact that is often ignored is that these two engines (J79 and AL21F) are almost the same weight, length, diameter and are very similar in many ways, including the variable stator vanes. But the AL21F has substantially more power and is even better in fuel efficiency and very reliable as well. The AL21F3 is a 24-17 (afterburner-military power) vs. the J79 which is a 17-11. That means the non afterburner AL21F is the same as J79 afterburner thrust power. This itself saves huge amount of fuel and makes the F4s much faster and can fly at higher altitude - and let's also not ignore PCC (pre-compression cooling).

So I would drop the J79 and work something out with Russian on AL21F, which can easily be fastened inside an F4.

Better still, my own favorite option would be Khatchaturov R-35-300 (mig23) which Iran has about 10+ of these birds. The R-35-300 is a magnificent engine, it is a 3.5 generation turbojet and offers almost 29-19 thrust. That is almost 19,000 pounds of thrust without afterburner, which is almost the same as F14A engine which Iran got (TF30-414A) WITH afterburner.

If Iran standardized on just this single engine, it could build single engine and twin engine fighter jets without needing to design and build another engine. Compared to TF30-414A which Iran got with F-14As, the R-35-300 is a quarter of a ton lighter, 1 meter shorter, AND, yes amazingly, it is more fuel efficient. Let me say that again, the turbofan TF30-414A that weighs 2 tons, has stall problems, is 6 meters long, is actually less fuel efficient than a turbojet R-35-300 (yes slightly, but still it offers about 50% more afterburner thrust and about 90% more non afterburner thrust while it weighs less).

Iran can replace all of its existing air force with two aircrafts: 1) a single engine 14 meter equivalent of a Su54/55/56 for both training and light fighter jet (not necessarily too light since it could kick KAI T50's butt), 2) as well as a F14 upgraded with this same engine. Not only that, I remember from a while ago that Russia was working on a single spool R-35-300 which would have made it border-line 4th generation turbojet engine that has 30% fewer parts (and fewer things to go wrong) and only marginally more fuel use.

Since Iran is not selling lots of oil and is currently under sanctions (and probably will be in one way or another for quite some time) it makes sense to use its oil to refine and produce jet fuel and use it to build its air force.

The key - in my opinion - is standardization. One single engine is all Iran needs.

May be later it can move on to building a platform similar to AL31F or even AL41F.

Good luck to Iranian defense industry.

 

[PeeD]

Not only that, I remember from a while ago that Russia was working on a single spool R-35-300 which would have made it border-line 4th generation turbojet engine that has 30% fewer parts (and fewer things to go wrong) and only marginally more fuel use.

Thats the issue: These old school turbojets (J79 being the worst of them) have too many parts, too many compressor stages and too low inlet temperature.

The Jahesh engine is a low-part engine and future Iranian engines should go in that direction to save costs.

RD-33 is so attractive because all its good features and should be the starting point of the first heavy engine. After that a heavy engine on Jahesh technology level would be developed, ideally with Al-31/41 as basis.

 

[EvilWesteners]

Thats the issue: These old school turbojets (J79 being the worst of them) have too many parts, too many compressor stages and too low inlet temperature.

The Jahesh engine is a low-part engine and future Iranian engines should go in that direction to save costs.

RD-33 is so attractive because all its good features and should be the starting point of the first heavy engine. After that a heavy engine on Jahesh technology level would be developed, ideally with Al-31/41 as basis.

PEED, you are definitely correct in your thinking. By the way, I very much like your posts/comments on the form. You are sharp as a knife.

My thinking is based on a "compromise" that I think Iran has to make, as it has no other realistic options at the moment. China or Russia don't love Iran. They are using Iran as leverage with U.S. Today China just barked at U.S. because DinosaurButt (Pompeo) threatened again anyone that sells weapons to Iran and China is wanting to use Iran weapons sales to see if they can stop U.S. from selling weapons to Taiwan.

These are many things I consider when trying to be realistic about Iran's options. Additionally, Iran's air force needs a "real" air combat advantage in some scenarios (potentially). A fast PCC engine that can fly at higher altitude of 70,000 to 75,000 using PCC is a great potential advantage for air combat considering that Iran has little advantage compared to U.S. fighter jets. At higher altitude, stealth fighters and even B2 bombers are less "stealthy" and hence give some small degree of advantage for Iran, specially fighting with home advantage.

RD33 is in my opinion is a mid-level engine even with the latest upgrades and higher thrust. Although I understand the many advantages you must be thinking of, e.g. Pakistan's technical support.

I still think that considering all the different options/challenges/opportunities Iran should go for R-35-300 if it can.

Thanks for your LIKE.

 

[PeeD]

PEED, you are definitely correct in your thinking. By the way, I very much like your posts/comments on the form. You are sharp as a knife.

Thanks, appreciated, I like your points too.

These are many things I consider when trying to be realistic about Iran's options. Additionally, Iran's air force needs a "real" air combat advantage in some scenarios (potentially). A fast PCC engine that can fly at higher altitude of 70,000 to 75,000 using PCC is a great potential advantage for air combat considering that Iran has little advantage compared to U.S. fighter jets. At higher altitude, stealth fighters and even B2 bombers are less "stealthy" and hence give some small degree of advantage for Iran, specially fighting with home advantage.

I'm a friend of fast and high when it comes to airpower. But in total such turbojets have high part count and fuel penalty. In the high and fast game, rocket motors or ramjets, brought to altitude by a turbofan, could be options in the next decades.

RD33 is in my opinion is a mid-level engine even with the latest upgrades and higher thrust. Although I understand the many advantages you must be thinking of, e.g. Pakistan's technical support.

RD-33 is the best that was at hand since the 90's, plenty of time to try to understand it. J85 was the easiest for a first engine. All the rest that were available are not worth the effort compared to RD-33.
RD-33 is not where it should stop of course, after these copy projects, something own on Al-31 basis could start (fewer, better compressor stages, higher inlet temperatures), for the next decade.

I still think that considering all the different options/challenges/opportunities Iran should go for R-35-300 if it can.

I understand you want to be conservative but since the Jahesh engine, we know that Iran wont go for such old designs. Jahesh is the messenger of an at least Al-31-level engine for the next decade.
However I understand that you like the R-35 and if I would not have seen the Jahesh, I would see it as an option too.

 

[Sineva]

Iran's military industrial complex has now proven without a shadow of a doubt, that it has the technical knowledge and ability to build turbine engine. Most of this technology is also transferred from Iran's cooperation with German turbine industry and Iran's work at the highest level, with MAPNA. Iran also has a long history (the famous father and son, although only the son is alive today), who have accomplished almost miracles and could have done so much more, if they had been given more support, or I should proper support.

In my humble opinion, I think Iran should not be trying to develop RD-33 (at least not at first or at a first priority). Iran also should not try to manufacture J79, as this is a total waste and borderline absurd.

For Iran's existing F4s, Iran should start manufacturing (either getting license or by copy/trial and error reverse engineering) the engine AL21F. First, Iran already has tremendous experience with this engine (Su17/22, and Su24). This engine although an old engine from 1970s, it still has many advantages over J79 and can hold its own against even against modern turbofans (to a certain degree). The higher heat exhust is also not an issue for demostic air defence air combat scenarios, in most cases. A fact that is often ignored is that these two engines (J79 and AL21F) are almost the same weight, length, diameter and are very similar in many ways, including the variable stator vanes. But the AL21F has substantially more power and is even better in fuel efficiency and very reliable as well. The AL21F3 is a 24-17 (afterburner-military power) vs. the J79 which is a 17-11. That means the non afterburner AL21F is the same as J79 afterburner thrust power. This itself saves huge amount of fuel and makes the F4s much faster and can fly at higher altitude - and let's also not ignore PCC (pre-compression cooling).

So I would drop the J79 and work something out with Russian on AL21F, which can easily be fastened inside an F4.

Better still, my own favorite option would be Khatchaturov R-35-300 (mig23) which Iran has about 10+ of these birds. The R-35-300 is a magnificent engine, it is a 3.5 generation turbojet and offers almost 29-19 thrust. That is almost 19,000 pounds of thrust without afterburner, which is almost the same as F14A engine which Iran got (TF30-414A) WITH afterburner.

If Iran standardized on just this single engine, it could build single engine and twin engine fighter jets without needing to design and build another engine. Compared to TF30-414A which Iran got with F-14As, the R-35-300 is a quarter of a ton lighter, 1 meter shorter, AND, yes amazingly, it is more fuel efficient. Let me say that again, the turbofan TF30-414A that weighs 2 tons, has stall problems, is 6 meters long, is actually less fuel efficient than a turbojet R-35-300 (yes slightly, but still it offers about 50% more afterburner thrust and about 90% more non afterburner thrust while it weighs less).

Iran can replace all of its existing air force with two aircrafts: 1) a single engine 14 meter equivalent of a Su54/55/56 for both training and light fighter jet (not necessarily too light since it could kick KAI T50's butt), 2) as well as a F14 upgraded with this same engine. Not only that, I remember from a while ago that Russia was working on a single spool R-35-300 which would have made it border-line 4th generation turbojet engine that has 30% fewer parts (and fewer things to go wrong) and only marginally more fuel use.

Since Iran is not selling lots of oil and is currently under sanctions (and probably will be in one way or another for quite some time) it makes sense to use its oil to refine and produce jet fuel and use it to build its air force.

The key - in my opinion - is standardization. One single engine is all Iran needs.

May be later it can move on to building a platform similar to AL31F or even AL41F.

Good luck to Iranian defense industry.

You make some excellent points,however I think that the main problem seems to be the airforce itself and its seeming lack of ability when it comes to organising and administering a large scale program of the sort you are suggesting,in addition you can also see rather poorly thought out goals such as the f5 reverse engineering program or the attempt at an airforce drone program that only wasted resources that could`ve been used for more realistic and valuable programs that could actually inprove its overall combat capabilities.
The other problem is also a seeming continuing preference for western hardware despite its increasing age and questionable combat capabilities while neglecting the upgrade of newer non western hardware such as the mig29 fleet.
I think at this point the only branch of irans military that would have the skills to carry out what you are suggesting would be the irgc-af.

 

[EvilWesteners]

Thanks, appreciated, I like your points too.



I'm a friend of fast and high when it comes to airpower. But in total such turbojets have high part count and fuel penalty. In the high and fast game, rocket motors or ramjets, brought to altitude by a turbofan, could be options in the next decades.



RD-33 is the best that was at hand since the 90's, plenty of time to try to understand it. J85 was the easiest for a first engine. All the rest that were available are not worth the effort compared to RD-33.
RD-33 is not where it should stop of course, after these copy projects, something own on Al-31 basis could start (fewer, better compressor stages, higher inlet temperatures), for the next decade.



I understand you want to be conservative but since the Jahesh engine, we know that Iran wont go for such old designs. Jahesh is the messenger of an at least Al-31-level engine for the next decade.
However I understand that you like the R-35 and if I would not have seen the Jahesh, I would see it as an option too.

Very good argument on your part, indeed.

I very much like the AL31F and its derivative AL41F. But I don't think Iran can build either for at least 10 years (and in large numbers enough to address the country's needs). Turbofan are much more complex than turbojets. Turbojets are substantially easier. Today's material engineering and turbine blade coating is so much more advanced than 1970s. Iran can also do (from its nuclear energy technology learning) single-piece fan (for lower noise, fewer parts, and better fuel efficiency). It is easier to do this for a turbojet than a turbofan. Iran can pursue an engine like R-35 and have one working within a year or 2 (with Russia's help). Turbojets inherently have fewer parts and a lot less complexity.

Then Iran can have long game, with AL31F. In military circles, there is a saying: "sweat during training so you save lives during the war". Iran needs pilots to do training/training/training. There needs to be the ability to do high numbers of sorties. These are far more essential aspects of air command, air space denial, air defense, and air supremacy denial, than which engines or which air craft. It is easy for U.S. to send 2 air crafts and shoot down 2 Libyan mig23s but in actual war, it is all about sorties, air power longevity, speed of repair and upgrade, pilot training, and number of pilots - AND of course the number/range/quality of your air to air missiles, afterall UK beat Argentine in 1979 war simply with sidewinders (among other things of course, it helps to have a VTOL aircraft). Iran does of course have long range missiles that can destroy air bases and runways, but it still needs a competent air force. U.S. command planners look at this very carefully.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[sahureka2]

We also talk about engines I ask a question.
In 2014 it was indicated that Iran Aircraft Industries was producing
a JT8D-219 derived turbofan jet engine, has this project reached series production?
starting from this turbofan would it be possible to extract a military version?

Thank you

2016

 

[EvilWesteners]

You make some excellent points,however I think that the main problem seems to be the airforce itself and its seeming lack of ability when it comes to organising and administering a large scale program of the sort you are suggesting,in addition you can also see rather poorly thought out goals such as the f5 reverse engineering program or the attempt at an airforce drone program that only wasted resources that could`ve been used for more realistic and valuable programs that could actually inprove its overall combat capabilities.
The other problem is also a seeming continuing preference for western hardware despite its increasing age and questionable combat capabilities while neglecting the upgrade of newer non western hardware such as the mig29 fleet.
I think at this point the only branch of irans military that would have the skills to carry out what you are suggesting would be the irgc-af.

I can't argue with someone who makes great sense. You are right.

I am "hoping" that Iran planners come to their senses and listen to advice you offered, regarding "organization", and "planning", and "IRGC". Like or not, facts speak for themselves. North Korea has done more with a lot less than Iran has. In every way. The current administration in Iran is heavily biased towards Europe that does not give a rats @$$ for Iran. Rohani has a very bad "judgement". And it's all about "lateral thinking ability" and good experience that allows you to have good judgment. Rohani has proven to have made bad decisions, whether that is monday-morning quarterback talking or not - he actually has made bad decisions.

As you say, very rightly so, IRGC despite all the complaining, HAVE DELIVERED RESULTS. no dispute.

They think strategically, and go with home-grown, for lots of reasons. They have the guts to do so. Others unfortunately still rely on foreign jets.

For instance, rather than copying and build a J85 for Iran's air force, I would have put the energy and time to build a GE J97. Same weight (about 700 pounds) with high altitude capability, up to 75,000 feet, and substantially more thrusts. Much better engine all around.

There are aircrafts that Iran can build that would serve Iran to no end. A simple A4 Skyhawk equivalent with a light engine (not the heavy engine it originally came with). The landing gear is very similar to F5, only longer. Iran has many of these pieces that it can copy and reverse engineer.

Iran needs a simple (subsonic or supersonic) workhorse for bringing up the level of fighter training. In fact, U.S. used to use A4 for quite a long time to train F14 pilots at Miramar. Everyone at the base talked about how easy the A4 is and how great they are for training pilots at such low costs.

Very much like your point about "administrating a large scale program". Wished someone in Iran was listening and understood your point.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[foxhoundbis]

We also talk about engines I ask a question.
In 2014 it was indicated that Iran Aircraft Industries was producing
a JT8D-219 derived turbofan jet engine, has this project reached series production?

Thx for this news, I ignored it.
About the Iranian heavy jet engines it may exist clues, your defense minister 4 years ago said Iran will produce soon heavy jet engines, after the OWJ.
Moreover a few months ago, one of your high-ranking officers said he expected to mass-produce soon new supersonic cruise missiles. If Iran is capable to mass-produce supersonic cruise missile, it will be capable to produce soon heavy jet engines, then heavy fighter, maybe SU-30 or another kind of F-14.

By producing a new hypersonic missile Iran entered a new era. This new era that terrified Israel, and is dividing the all western bloc. The US Jewish Lobby wants a war between the US and Iran in order to forbid Iran to access this technology, and there is another bloc that acknowledges Iran's new status but at the expense of Israel. At this stage, no one can say which party will win the battle.