Iranian Chill Thread

[HGV]

Japan “surrendered”, Germany “surrendered”, South Korea “sided” with the west when Korea spilt. Just a few examples of a surrendering sovereignty and capitulating to demands that ended up working quite well for the domestic population.

They were completely destroyed and lost wars, they didn't surrender voluntarily. I also said capitulate, not surrender. Of course if Iran is nuked then it would surrender too, but there is no reason to capitulate to the aggressors - even those countries you cite did not do so until the very end.

Iran did not make friends with Saudi Arabia out of desperation. Iran did not make friends with Saudi Arabia, period. It simply restored pre-existing diplomatic relations. The consensus view is that this was an act of desperation (or conceding defeat) from Saudi Arabia, not Iran.

 

[Stryker1982]

Your solution is to abandon sovereignty and capitulate to the demands of the US, which is directly responsible for inflicting that $800 billion 'loss' in its illegal multi-decade economic warfare campaign against Iran?

These days more countries are trying to resist US control, not run back into their arms to become a vassal.

1- Palestine is better armed than ever, and the resistance front is increasingly unified.
2- "Israel" is encircled by a ring of resistance fire (Iranian weapons) and 20% of the entire settler population is engaging in anti-government protests. They are more divided than ever.
3- This is largely thanks to US sanctions and an exaggeration. The IMF projects real GDP growth of 2% in Iran in 2023 (by contrast, the IMF projects a contraction in the UK's GDP of -0.6% in 2023).
4- Social media amplifies divisions and societies across the world are becoming more polarised, not just Iran.
5- The IRI is very permissive in some ways, e.g. pardon for thousands of rioters in the new year, no longer enforcing hijab policy etc. But I agree, the IRI has many flaws and these mainly centre around its Islamic social policies.
6- Terrorist cult MEK is largely to blame for that after they exposed Natanz to the world in 2002, leading to a global effort to limit Iran's nuclear program and Iran prematurely ending its military nuclear program in 2003. Nonetheless, Iran has mastered and indigenised the nuclear fuel cycle and is capable of mass producing IR-6 centrifuges which are in operation enriching uranium to 60% HEU as we speak.

I want to be optimistic that as @SalarHaqq had noted and the rest of us have also seen, we are heading towards a multi-polar world where the threat of sanctions are no longer the backbreaking attack it once was, as other great powers (China, India) or lesser but serious powers (SK, Japan, EU) ignore them to pursue their own interests. Something that was scarcely seen 10 years ago even.

All the eggs are in this basket, and if this basket doesn't produce chickens, then their is really no hope for economic growth and wealth generation.

My point is, I can see why the domestic population of Iran (or at least some of them) don’t care about being a Western vassal as long as it bring the economic prosperity, freedom, and pursuit of happiness that the current government promised, but never provided.

Pretty much the bottom line.

Alot of people also don't care about "Resistance" or the ideological tenants of the system and what it has achieved around itself. They only care about the dinner table, and their children's future.

 

[TheImmortal]

They were completely destroyed and lost wars, they didn't surrender voluntarily. I also said capitulate, not surrender. Of course if Iran is nuked then it would surrender too, but there is no reason to capitulate to the aggressors - even those countries you cite did not do so until the very end.

Japan is more succesful today than Imperial Japan ever was.

Germany fought two world wars to control Europe, it now controls EU as the epicenter of the economic engine.

South Korea is one of the most thriving countries in Europe, while North Korea is a hermit wasteland with feminines killing millions since the 90’s.

So ask yourself, what would the average Iranian on the street rather live in? Germany/Japan/South Korea? Or North Korea today and Iraq of the 1990’s?

I think you know the answer.

I should add that IRAN would be the one supplying europe with most its natural gas needs NOT Russia. Europe turned to Russia due to desperation of 1980 revolution. Lack of investment in Iranian energy infrastructure prevented Iran from being an LNG powerhouse.

Pretty much the bottom line.

Alot of people also don't care about "Resistance" or the ideological tenants of the system and what it has achieved around itself. They only care about the dinner table, and their children's future.

Everyone (or the massive majority) here that supports the resistance cause, lives in a western country. Quite hypocritical to say the least.

How much would they support the resistance if they lived in Iran making $500 a month (if that) and not having enough to afford food and a house being a distant dream?

Let’s be real guys, the protesters have legitimate claims on the state of the country. And protests will continue until prosperity and some resemblance of freedom emerge.

 

[Stryker1982]

All the eggs are in this basket, and if this basket doesn't produce chickens, then their is really no hope for economic growth and wealth generation.

if China actually carries out their 25 year plan with promised 400 billion dollar investment, it could actually turn alot around.

You'd have high-speed bullet trains that travel from Tehran - Isfahan in 1.5 hours or something. You can live in Isfahan and work in Tehran. It has a major impact on the economy.

I don't know what is holding China back, but whatever it is, it needs to be resolved.

Either this plan goes in effect, we sit and stagnate, or capitulate to western demands and beg them to do the same that China would anyways.

 

[HGV]

Japan is more succesful today than Imperial Japan ever was.

Germany fought two world wars to control Europe, it now controls EU as the epicenter of the economic engine.

South Korea is one of the most thriving countries in Europe, while North Korea is a hermit wasteland with feminines killing millions since the 90’s.

So ask yourself, what would the average Iranian on the street rather live in? Germany/Japan/South Korea? Or North Korea today and Iraq of the 1990’s?

I think you know the answer

Japan has to get permission from the US to breathe and Germany has 20 US military bases and doesn't control anything, it simply subsidises the southern EU states.

It's all a question of framing. I suspect if you asked Iranians 'do you want to capitulate to the demands of those trying to starve you out of existence by giving up your sovereignty in order to remove US sanctions and eat more meat' most would say no.

 

[Stryker1982]

Japan has to get permission from the US to breathe and Germany has 20 US military bases and doesn't control anything, it simply subsidises the southern EU states.

It's all a question of framing. I suspect if you asked Iranians 'do you want to capitulate to the demands of those trying to starve you out of existence by giving up your sovereignty in order to remove US sanctions and eat more meat' most would say no.

Iranian government budget was more than 80 billion dollars this year.

Japan was more than 800 billion. It would take 10 years to reach a single year of government spending of Japan. Their's really no comparison, and yes many people would surrender if the were promised freedom, bread and circus.

Yes partly because of naivety but also because some people didn't sign up to become part of the axis of resistance, they never chose to be born in Iran, hence the dis-satisfaction from some.

 

[HGV]

Iranian government budget was more than 80 billion dollars this year.

Japan was more than 800 billion. It would take 10 years to reach a single year of government spending of Japan. Their's really no comparison, and yes many people would surrender if the were promised freedom, bread and circus.

Yes partly because of naivety but also because some people didn't sign up to become part of the axis of resistance, they never chose to be born in Iran, hence the dis-satisfaction from some.

When you learn to use the name of the Persian Gulf we can have a discussion

 

[Shawnee]

Japan “surrendered”, Germany “surrendered”, South Korea “sided” with the west when Korea spilt. Just a few examples of a surrendering sovereignty and capitulating to demands that ended up working quite well for the domestic population.

If you ask population of Iran, they would gladly be a Japan, South Korea, or Germany. The average person in Iran doesn’t care about the Great Power games or geopolitics, they care about prosperity, freedom, and a decent life…..none of which is happening for them under current Government’s direction.

It’s gotten so bad, that Iran had to make friends with Saudi Arabia to thwart an Arab NATO from forming and also to get Saudi investment $$$$ into Iran.

It’s no secret that Iran under the Shah today would likely have been a much greater economic powerhouse with strong security ties to the US. Iran back then was what Israel is today to the US. It’s oil fields would be well developed, they would be supplying Europe with natural gas via pipeline and LNG, it’s auto industry and tech industry would be flourishing at a much greater pace.

The current Iran may one day end up a very powerful sovereign country with a very strong military. But that day could also be decades in future or may never come.

My point is, I can see why the domestic population of Iran (or at least some of them) don’t care about being a Western vassal as long as it bring the economic prosperity, freedom, and pursuit of happiness that the current government promised, but never provided.

Japan and Germany did not succeed because of surrender. They succeeded due to their tech and hard work after that. Japan started computer hardware and had to give it up due to its lower status. Atari lost to Apple and IBM due to that surrender.

You will not gain any score by just surrounding. You just have to pay back the losses of the winners.

 

[tsunset]

PERSIAN GULF

United Nations official map https://www.un.org/geospatial/content/middle-east


https://web.archive.org/web/2012100...geoinfo/UNGEGN/docs/23-gegn/wp/gegn23wp61.pdf

United Nations Group of Experts on Geographical Names

The Arabic Bank and Beyt Alquran in Bahrain published a large wall calendar in 1996 containing the historical map of Bahrain in which all the maps contain the name of PERSIAN GULF.

It is obvious that the promotional use by the Arabs of the three aforementioned maps, whose identity and originality are not clear, in comparison with 6000 maps and more than 200 historical and tourism books from Irastus to Herodotus to Estakhri and Ibn Houghal, who have all called the water body, PERSIAN GULF, shall lack any value. In the Arabic Dictionary Almonjamed, Library of American Congress, Britain National Library (London), deeds at Ministry of India's Affairs (London), Library of Faculty of Orientalist Studies of London, there are more than 300 maps, containing the name PERSIAN GULF.

PERSIAN GULF. The Specialized Group for Experts on Standardization of Geographical Names, active in the United Nations Social Economical Council also emphasizes the correct use of historical names for features, and is active in dispute settlement related to geographical names. "Naphtali Cadman" the head of Work Group for Toponymy Information has stated that the motivation to change the name of PERSIAN GULF is purely political.

Furthermore, about 30 valid Atlas have registered the name of PERSIAN GULF within the past 30 years, such as: Atlas of Thomas Herbert (1628), Atlas of Pars, Lousaj University (1863), Atlas of Germany (1861), Pars Envile Atlas (1760), Atlas of Modern Geography (1890), Atlas of London (1873), Atlas of Ernest Embrosius (1922), Atlas of Bilefild (1899), Atlas of Harmsorth (19th Century, London)...

In 18th and 19th centuries when the government of Britain expanded its dominance over the seas and according to some treaties was recognized as supporter and successor of Sheikhs on the south sectors of the PERSIAN GULF, the official maps of the areas from East Seas of Suez, specially India and PERSIAN GULF were drawn up as instructed by the government of Britain, all of which reflect clearly the name of PERSIAN GULF.

In 1507 A.D. Portugal's navy captured Hormoz Island under commandment of Alphonso Burkerk and it continued till 1620. In a research essay, Dr. José ManuelGarcia, professor and a member of Geographical Society of Portugal emphasized the name of Persian Gulf in the official and unofficial deeds and maps of Portugal since 1507 so far. The maps prepared by the Portuguese on Persian Gulf are kept in museums as human heritage.

From among 50 maps and letters exchanged during the years: 1500 to 1700 A.D. among the governors of Persian Gulf and the kings of Portugal and Spain or those mentioned in books and writings of tourists, Persian Gulf has been named as follows: Mare de Persia, Persico Sinus, mare Persio, Sinus Persico, Mare Persico, mar Persiano, Persio-Persiski Zaliv, Persischer Golf, Pars Sea, Bahre Fars, Perza obol, Persiste Habbugt.

The emergence of Islam and expansion of this religion to Iran, the immigration of Arabs to the coasts of PERSIAN GULF increased. However, in more than 30 geographical, historical, literary, books or the books on interpretation of morals, and jurisprudence, the Muslims and Arab scientists have described PERSIAN GULF. Such books as: Albaladan, History of Yaghoubi, Almaghari, Fotouhalsham, Fatholajam, written by Mohammad Ibn Omar (70 lunar calendar), History of Moghimi, History of Alrosol Valmouk (Mohammad Ibn Jarir Tabari), History of Balami, Ibn Khardazabeh, Ibn Faghih Hamedani, Estakhri, Masoudi, Moghadasi, Ibn Houghal, Ghazvini, Taher Marvazi, Naser Khosrow, Shamseddin Dameshghi, Ghodameh Ibn Jafar, Ibn Yaghoub, Ibn Rasteh, Shahriar Ramhormozi, Ibn Balkhi, Edrisi, Bakran Khorasani, Yaghout Hamoudi, Abolfada, Nobari, Joveyni, Haji Khalifeh (Chalabi), Jorji Zeydan, all have used the name of Persian Gulf in their books since 207 (lunar calendar) so far.

 

[BigMelatonin]

if China actually carries out their 25 year plan with promised 400 billion dollar investment, it could actually turn alot around.

You'd have high-speed bullet trains that travel from Tehran - Isfahan in 1.5 hours or something. You can live in Isfahan and work in Tehran. It has a major impact on the economy.

I don't know what is holding China back, but whatever it is, it needs to be resolved.

Either this plan goes in effect, we sit and stagnate, or capitulate to western demands and beg them to do the same that China would anyways.

If it happens it will not happen until the west fully decouples from China. Until they totally lose those markets they will continue to profit off of them. Just a matter of how long it takes the west to push them out.

 

[tsunset]

if China actually carries out their 25 year plan with promised 400 billion dollar investment, it could actually turn alot around.

You'd have high-speed bullet trains that travel from Tehran - Isfahan in 1.5 hours or something. You can live in Isfahan and work in Tehran. It has a major impact on the economy.

I don't know what is holding China back, but whatever it is, it needs to be resolved.

Either this plan goes in effect, we sit and stagnate, or capitulate to western demands and beg them to do the same that China would anyways.

capitulate to western demands

If you capitulate to the Whites, they will firstly, dismantle all of the ballistic missile and drone arsenal of Iran and indigenous systems, or, modify them so it pass easier as a method of capitulation, putting their codes inside them and limiting their range specifically to hit ennemies of the West (South central Russia and Western China), making in sort that they never could reach Israel and also that they could never be launched without their approval

The indigenous systems plans will all be stopped, instead, Iran would cooperate with them directly by buying things such as Patriot batteries and other Western SHORAD, propose you export F-16s, Eurofighters, MQ9 drones, Abrams tanks (export versions of course), export warships limited to frigates and corvettes and things like that, of course all backdoored, and if you would dare purchasing something from Russia or China, say hello to even more abuse, and if you dare making something by yourself such as a simple cruise missile with a range of 600km or a simple ballistic missile, you are screwed.

They will also, force you into classic White ultra abusive-deals, they will propose to help Iran build second grade gas and oil extraction machines, which of course they will get a big percentage on (pretty much like the British Persian oil company at the time), make pipelines to Israel and Europe, close the fields to any locals, contracts would last from 40 to 60 years (Reza Khan signed a contract for 60years with the British for oil, for barely nothing in exchange, even Rockefeller was mocking Pahlavis)

They also will install military bases into Iran, even military city bases like in Germany with McDonalds for the marines installed there, at some expense of Iran, thus making Iran a target for Russia and China

They will take control over all nuclear facilities, undoubtedly dismantling some of them and limiting their capacity as they wish

They will also make their own industry there and make profits

They will influence every decision of Iran (oil selling, any foreign policies)

They will Label Iran as an unstable state, thus limiting any high value imports (pretty much the same as Pakistan with the US right now, even Saudi Arabia which only have backdoored military systems and fighter fleet coming from the US/Europe)

This is the White Freedom Package, and even, it would be more than just this, look at the Pompeo 12 demands and add all of this with that. Meanwhile I'm not seeing China or Russia interfering into Iran domestic decisions neither external decisions or having military bases inside Iran, something that the Whites would do massively, just look at all the countries "allied" with them, the Whites just controls them how they want it, to the eyes of them, Iran would be a new shithole free oil and gas and money machine to exploit in exchange of pieces of crap and backdoored systems, same for all infrastructure they would invest on. You will be their slave, they will be your masters, just like a nice little dog.

 

[TheImmortal]

Japan has to get permission from the US to breathe

Permission for what exactly? Iran isn’t exactly invading countries either. It lost its own backyard (Caspian Sea) to Azeris and Russia.

Japan is an economic powerhouse that used western investment after WW2 to become a technological giant. Japan is also latent nuclear power like Iran….without draconian sanctions. The shah was doing what Iran started in late 90’s back in 70’s. Iran was going to be a nuclear power either way.

Germany has 20 US military bases and doesn't control anything, it simply subsidises the southern EU states.

It literally is the economic engine of the EU. Without Germany, Euro collapses. What a naive comment.

It's all a question of framing. I suspect if you asked Iranians 'do you want to capitulate to the demands of those trying to starve you out of existence by giving up your sovereignty in order to remove US sanctions and eat more meat' most would say no.

Hypocritical coming from the guy in the UK. Do you even own any property in Iran?

All the ex-pats telling those back home to eat grass and not capitulate ‘Margh ba Emrica’, when they are working and providing to the very western states they loath.

I don't know what is holding China back, but whatever it is, it needs to be resolved.

They make 100000x the money from Western countries (despite all that rhetoric) than they could from any alliance with Iran.

Look how fast Western firms pulled out of Russia. Why would China give all that up when it doesn’t have to. There will be a day when uncoupling occurs, but China is in no rush to speed it along. It will milk the west and play nice as long as possible, while it builds up its own domestic industries.

If it happens it will not happen until the west fully decouples from China. Until they totally lose those markets they will continue to profit off of them. Just a matter of how long it takes the west to push them out.

Finally a logical analysis among a sea of fanboys.

 

[TheImmortal]

Japan and Germany did not succeed because of surrender. They succeeded due to their tech and hard work after that. Japan started computer hardware and had to give it up due to its lower status. Atari lost to Apple and IBM due to that surrender.

You will not gain any score by just surrounding. You just have to pay back the losses of the winners.

And where did they get the money, tech transfers, and investment capital to build that capability? You think that’s just magically came out of war torn countries that are 100B+ in debt? Germany was still paying reparations for WW2 till recently.

Iran produced more oil under the shah in 1970’s tech than today in 2023 tech with all the advancements.

Iran in 2023 still has zero LNG capability and used most of the NG it produces. Despite being a top 5 producer, it ain’t even a top 10 exporter (16th actually) . That’s what lack of access to deep massive western capital and investment does to a country.

 

[Shawnee]

And where did they get the money, tech transfers, and investment capital to build that capability? You think that’s just magically came out of war torn countries that are 100B+ in debt? Germany was still paying reparations for WW2 till recently.

Iran produced more oil under the shah in 1970’s tech than today in 2023 tech with all the advancements.

Iran in 2023 still has zero LNG capability and used most of the NG it produces. Despite being a top 5 producer, it ain’t even a top 10 exporter (16th actually) . That’s what lack of access to deep massive western capital and investment does to a country.

Count motivation and hard work and not just money.

Japanese started the new generation of semiconductor and chip sector with zero outside money or help.
Germans started submarine and missile industry with negative balance.

You know me I don’t care for selling raw oil. Saudis also do that.

Iran does not have LNG due to lack of tech and low motivation. Also you cannot sell LNG under the table like oil. No drive to make LNG. More drive for petrochemicals.

 

[tsunset]

All of my experience with Iranians outside of Iran in real life and on internet, is that the ones who are not advocating for an overthrow are the ones who come across as the most calm, rational people. In fact they may not even love their government and even be completely against it but never advocate for the famous regime change, but they accept it and aren't what you would call opposition.

I found these people for the most part to be the sane/normal ones. Then, on the other hand, you find opposition types who are just... Like, creepy crazy even, hysterical, advocating that Israel bomb their own country while they live abroad "Bomb just the bad guys not the civilians", "Just remove the mullahs and that's it", thinking they represent Iranians, worshipping Whites and spitting on muslims and Arabs/any non-Whites all day long while loving the Whites, they think they are white, they want to be white, in complete denial of their origins, advocating for more sanctions, and i'm sure some of them doesn't even have family in Iran. They live in their own world, not the one I live in.

They even advocate for a "autonomous Kurdistan land" inside Iran, they compare Kurds to Chinese Uyghurs, but the Navy general of Iran is a Sunni Kurd i believe?

And sometimes i find out that some of them are Kurds disguised in Persian, pretty much like we see Turks disguised in Azeris speaking as Azeris from Iran