Iranian Chill Thread

[IRAN 1802]

No because she's good looking.

Yep, she is one of favourite singers.

 

[rmi5]

It was more of attributes engendered by tradition rather than promotion by British which lead to domination of Civil services by a particular caste.

If you read my write completely, you would know that British , promoted Britishers only. There were 0 Indians in civil service till 1863 ,and till 1912 ICS was predominantly ( <80% ) British ,and had British majority till 1945.


This phenomenon as you see in India vis-a-vis Brahmins is a universal phenomenon, not something limited to India.Whenever there is paradigm shift in social conditions, people who are best placed to gain an advantage take lead over those who are not.

An example, i would say most convincing example, of this would be Jews.Jews were persecuted in Europe and were barred from holding any lands, were restricted to separate quarters, and have to wear a identifier insignia. Only moneylending was open to them.When power in Europe use to be derived from land holdings, they were at the bottom of European social totem pole. But when power of liquid currency became supreme, due to industrial revolution and European expansion, Jews position improved and improved to such an extent that they become most powerful people in Europe. This was due to fact that Jews had much better understanding of how money works due to institutional memory passed down from generation to generation.This happened when Jews were Hated, and are still hated, in most of Europe.


This is also the reason that Western countries are most powerful today. Modern Science, originated in west, which gave first movers advantage. India and China would never be able to become as scientifically advanced as US , barring a epochal transition, because West has an advantage of 30-50 years over us. By the time we master some technology, it is already obsolete.

This differentiation is also seen in dominance of type of military tactics in different regions of the world. Europe, which has a rugged topography is a place where infantry dominates over cavalry , so we had a roman empire there who had best infantry of all times but sucked balls in cavalry. It could be also seen from Indian History. Turks, who were masters of light cavalry, found it extremely difficult to defeat Indian Kings with strong cavalry contingent. It took 3 generations of warfare to subdue Kabulshahi Dynasty ,but it took only 12 years for Turks to overrun Gangetic plains, which have flat terrain thus favoring cavalry, because of their superior cavalry tactics. Same turks failed against Rajputs which had strong cavalry themselves and Himalyan Kingdoms,Central ,and South India, which due to rugged terrain did not favored cavalry.


Similar is the case with Muslims today. Islamic civilization was based on militarism, not Science. SO in today's world where wars are fought by Scientists and Engineers, Islamic countries have fallen behind West which has supremacy in S&T department.If Scientist somehow magically disappear, there is a good chance that Islam would overrun west.






I will address this point first as this is common to both your posts. I would answer other parts of @rmi5 post later.

India being backward in Science is a myth. India, historically, was very advanced in Philosophy, Astronomy, Medicine, Metallurgy, linguistics,and Mathematics. India sucked in Geographical knowledge and writing chronological history, first attempt on which was made by Kalhana in 1200CE (Rājatarangiṇī) . This myth is a side-effect of dominant western thought. Lot of Indian ( and to some extent Persian too ) scientific knowledge is attributed to Arabs as Arabs act as courier between Indian and Europe ( there is no way for thought exchange between India and Europe bypassing Arabs before 1498CE). So Indian place decimal number system and achievement in Algebra are attributed to Arabs.

One such example is brahmagupta. His book Brāhmasphuṭasiddhānta was translated by Al-fazari as Sini-al-Arab and formed basis of further works of Al-Khwarizmi.

This is only an odd example. Indian mathematical achievement are numerous and India always had a strong tradition of mathematics. You could review this list yourself. List of Indian mathematicians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They are not known worldwide because today's dominant intellectual thought is western thought which is based in work of Greeks rather than Indians.An example of this would be Rolle's theorem. This theorem was given by Bhaskara-II of India but it is attributed to Michel rolles.

You could go through works of Indian mathematecians if you like to.

List of Indian mathematicians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In medicine, Sushruta wrote Sushruta Samhita in 600BCE ( he is known as father of surgery) which along with Charaka samhita from 900 BCE jointly constitute Ayurveda which till advent of modern medicine was best encyclopedia of medicine.

Sanskrit, is one of the oldest recorded language in History with it's oldest inscriptions being from treaty between Hitties and Mittani in 1400BCE. and is has largest amount of literature from 1000BCE era, to the extent that Rig-Veda is used by academics to study history of both India and Iran as inscription in Avestan from that time are few.
Indo-Aryan superstrate in Mitanni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damascus steel did not originated in Damascus. It originated in India. Europeans named it Damascus steel because they got it from Damascus.

Damascus steel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is not to say that you people are at fault. Since western traditions dominate the world, achievement of any other civilization which did not contributed to Western thought are not well known. Even most of Indians did not know much about Indian history and culture as Indian government suppress it in order to not cause strife between Hindus and Muslims.

If you want to know more about Indian History and Culture , you could visit this thread.

Ancient and Medieval achievements of the Indians - Historum - History Forums



So @rmi5 , Indians even after being 1/7 of world population today , ( not 1/4 as you have stated, and it was even lower in history before European population growth become -ve) did not have lowest Scientific achievements in History. If you compare 1500 years of non-muslim history of India ( 500BCE - 1000CE) with 1500 year of combined Islamic History ( 500 CE - 2000CE), Indians would outrank Muslims (who are 1/4 of total world population) more-so because Golden age of Islamic knowledge lasted for very short period ( 300 years) before Al-Ghazali declared Science and Mathematics as Heresy.

A factor, and most important factor, that contributed to decline of Indian civilization from 1000CE onward is attributed to wholesale destruction brought by Muslims onto India. Mahmud of Ghazni wiped out ( and took pride in doing so ) institutes of higher education from North India.

As noted by Al-Biruni,a muslim himself



Mahmud of Ghazni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And Destruction of Universities ( along with slaying of all teachers and student present in complex) of Nalanda and Vikramshila by a Ghorid Muhammab-bin-Bakhtiyar Khilzi as written in Tabaqat-i-nasiri be minaj ul Shiraz.



Ikhtiyar ad-Din Muhammad bin Bakhtiyar Khilji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Even Muslim Historians of India like Mohd. Habib of Aligarh Muslim University acknowledge that advent of Islam brought civilization decline in India, even though they attribute it to Barbarianism of Turks (Idea of Turks being a barbaric race is popular among muslim historians in India ) rather than to Islam.



Negationism In India - Chapter Two - Negationism In India





Caste system has no relation to Hinduism, a point proven by existence of castes among Muslims and Christians and lack of mention of word caste ( jati in Hindi/sanskrit) in whole of Hindu literature, either religious or Secular.

Caste system among Muslims - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Caste system among Indian Christians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dalit Catholics petition Vatican against ‘discrimination’

I should explain Indian social structure here in some detail.


In Hinduism there are Four Varnas: Brahmins ( Scholars), Ksatriyas ( warriors ), Vaishyas( traders ) , and Shudra ( Cultivators and Artisans) with an additional category of outcastes ( doing menial work like carrying garbage and as executioners). These even though not recognized by Hindu religious philosophy , but are considered part of Hinduism as they were mentioned in secular literature which has religious overtones. The membership of these groups is not permanent and any one could rise or fall on scale based on it's deeds.

This is evident from example of Vishvamitra who was a Ksatriya but became a Brahmin by pursuing intellectual pusuits. Apart from this, all Ksatriyas in South India were originally Shudras who became Ksatriya by Parataking military activities and sucessfully defending kingdoms they created.

Untouchability, is also not mentioned anywhere in Hindu texts,except in case of Chandals who were Royal executioner and undertakers. It got generalized on Dalits or Panchams pretty late around 1300CE.

Apart from this Hindus had a parallel Gotra system which was constituted in order to prevent incest ( you could not marry in your own Gotra ). They are family trees traced to ancestors in antiquity. For example: My Gotra is bhardwaj, so i could not marry a girl hailing from same Gotra.

This is one of good books ( written by a Britisher so you need not worry about neutrality ) . Though being 70 year old, it misses out a lot of things like chronology of Indian Kings which was researched after his death.

Wonder That Was India: A.L. Basham: 9780330439091: Amazon.com: Books


Caste, on the other hand are groups of people who claim or assume similar origin, and thus are permanent. They are not mentioned in any Hindu text because most of them formed after religious activity has ceased on part of Hindus.

Origin of castes is varied. In Hindus a caste could fall squarely in a varna,or in between varnas. Most of trader or Vaishya caste today originated from Artisan and Traders Guilds in Ancient India. For example: My own caste is considerd a cross between Brahmin and Rajput ( Kshatriya ) caste. By Gotra, which denote ancestory, i am a Brahmin ,but most of members of my Caste has taken up militaristic duties. So it is considered a cross of Brahmins and Rajputs. Muslim converts from my caste take the surname Khan. A Caste, or individual could rise or fall in scale of Varna depending on his conduct.


Among Muslims, Social division occurs on three level: Ashraf, Azlaf, Arzal which could be considered similar to varnas among Hindus. This classification was constituted by Zaiuddin Barani, a turkish scholar who established it by fatwah-e-jahandari. Ashraf muslims are high born muslims who trace their lineage to muhammad and High caste hindu converts ( Brahmins; there are more Syeds in India than Gulf+Iran combined), Azlaf ie low caste converts( from Vaishya and Shudras) and lowest Arzals ( from Pancham/Dalits/outcastes ).

Along with this, muslims have castes among themselves which they call Biradris ( literal meaning brotherhood).


That been said, Castes should be seen in a historical prespective. Caste system, by modern standards is retrograde but Historically it was most liberal of any system in the world ( where slavery was present till 150 years ago).India, especially Hindu India did not had any slaves. So even the most lowest on Caste Hierarchy ( a chandal ) has free agency. He could not be enslaved, killed, or Sold, and neither could his property be confiscated by someone from higher class. The only disadvantage he faced was that he could not marry someone from Higher caste and was excluded from education system. His condition was much better than that of medieval slave.




While i would agree with you that Hinduism make people insular, but it does begs a question; In comparison to whom?

When compared to modern secular thought, Hinduism does make people insular. But i would not agree with your assertion that it makes people insular when compared to Abrahmic religions.

The whole "Hindus are insular" was a racial construct propagated by British and does not have any logical explanation. Europeans under the firm hand of Church were as much insular as Hindus, if not more.

Regarding Indians dis-interest in conquests, it has to be seen in view of geographical realities. India has second most Arable land in world ( even though being seventh in total area), has largest irrigated land in the world and is 1/3 as large as whole of Europe. India has always been a land of Plenty where fertile alluvial is 4000meter thick (thus is unexhaustibe). Northern and Eastern reaches of India are lined up by unpassable Himalayan cordilleras ( four parallel ranges with average height of 6000m ), Ocean in south and Deserts ( dast-e-lut and Dat-e-Kavir ) and Central Asian steppes ( which before irrigation were only good for grazing) to North and North east.

Land use statistics by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indians never had any need to expand beyond it's borders.

Indian geographical extent is sometime lost on people because maps use mercator projection. In this projection size of landmasses increase as one moves towards poles.They become popular as a line drawn on mercator maps gave true bearings thus proving themselves to be a good navigational tools.



Mercator projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even if you view history as a whole, most of Ancient and medieval conquests have been carried out by Steppe nomads and have coincided with beginning of little ice age or out of desperation. During favorable whether condition livestock of steppe nomads increases, so when weather conditions become unfavorable they have to either let their horses die or invade their neighbour using those horses. Mongol invasion started at the beginning of little ice age. And Arabian conquest of Byzatine and Persia started after a long spell of good weather. There may have been many religious preachers before muhammad, but they were not able cement their power since they did not have military resources that muhammad had at their disposal.

The invasion of Huns or Hepthalite as they are called in India started around 500CE. This was because of construction of Great wall of China. It's successful construction started a domino effect by limiting eastward extent of Turco-Mongol tribes thus making pressure on eastern edge of their dominion. One tribe displaced other who in turn displaced other finally with Persia and India being invaded by those tribes.



While there are some examples of religious violence on part of Hindus ( though much less than Abrahmics ), you have taken up a wrong example to demonstrate it ( Thus the correction ).

The incident you are referring to is 2001-02 Gujarat riots. Those riots were started when Muslims burnt a train full of Hindu Pilgrims resulting in death of 59 people and injuring another 48. Hindus started riots against muslims which lead to death of 790 muslims and 254 Hindus. Modi is accused of not controlling these riots for first three days as he took three days to call Army to quell riots ( though his neighbouring state of Maharashtra and Rajasthan which were under Congress rule refused to send Armed Police from their state ).

Now whatever one's view may be on violence or even religious violence , one could not expect Hindus to sit back and suffer aggression done bu Muslims onto them in silence.Burning of Sabarmati express was unilateral and unprovoked aggression done by Muslims onto Hindus, as a collective. You could not expect that a government with it's limited power could contain anger and bloodthirst of 95% of it's population. Government agencies like Police ( including that of US ) are always outnumbered and outgunned and are not equipped to deal with mass uprisings. There is nothing Modi could have done.



Probably because they do not indulge is newsworthy acts.



I myself am an agonist. If you remember a conversation we had on this thread some 11 months- a year ago ,when some Iranian started abusing Atheist and foreign migrated Iranians ( you use to have Iran's flag at that time ); I have stated that according to what i believe and what is possible by strict application is that existence of god could not be determined.

Science, could and has refuted existence of a control-freak god as he is depicted in most tradition, but Science could not disprove the idea of existence of a God as our Knowledge, senses and techniques suffer from limitation, of being limited by capability of it's possessor ie human. This is one of an axiom of epistemology.

uhhh, I don't know how everyone is an agnostic, but when I touch their religion, they start getting angry. Maybe it is a new type of agnosticism that I don't know about.
Anyway, India+Bangladesh+Eastern part of Pakistan,indian subcontinent, have 1/4 of world population. so, I expect to see 1/4 of human achievements from these lands.
BTW, I am very educated about mathematics and its history, hence I know that:
What achievement Indians had in mathematics? absolutely nothing.
what achievement Indians had before coming of islam? absolutely nothing. BTW, Islam almost never came to large parts of india, like south of India, for centuries, and also islam is a pretty new religion, and hinduism has been practiced in india for a much longer time.
what achievement Indians had after coming of islam? absolutely nothing.
Hence, did muslims have any effect on lack of progress in indian subcontinent >> No
BTW, what about other sciences? how much progress this 1/4 of population has had? Physics? biology? medicine?

About caste system, and hinduism, what system of belief brahmins belong to? Also, why hinduism has not talked against this evil system? has it just forgot about big parts of the society as untouchables, ...
BTW, there is no caste system in Islam, or christianity.

About Nomad tribes and conquests, Europeans were not nomads when they started to conquer Indian subcontinent, Africa, ... Egyptians were not nomads either, but they conquered many parts of Near East, South East Europe and Africa, when they had power. conquering is about having power, will, some sort of social order, ... not about being nomad

About hindus, and religious violence, I can bring many other examples that hindus have started fights, ... but I wanted to point out that a person like Modi, who is accused of serious human rights abuse, and such religious related crimes, can easily collect votes among public, which is a very bad sign for me.

About these religions, they are all garbages. on a personal level, I prefer Abrahamic ones over eastern ones, since at least they won't kill you inside, but they are also based on hoax, and have serious social side effects. There is a solid reason that muslims, christians, and jews have had more advances throughout a long period of history compared to eastern religion followers.

@rmi5 Just came back from the cinema. Instead of having the movie on my mind (watched the new Hobbit movie), I was thinking about that Carlin video you sent me, specifically about the part where he talked about consumerism. We had free 3D Ultra AVX D-Box tickets. Basically the movie was in 3D, but the screen was wall to wall (kind of like iMAX) and in full HD (normal cinema screens are sometimes shitty, but these were like a HD TV monitor) and the surround sound was 7.1 surround. The seats vibrated and moved around on their own throughout the action scenes! Basically it was a 4D movie. It was a very interesting experience, but I thought 3D was a gimmick and they couldn't top themselves any time soon. They did, and they did it with vengeance. When I say the seats vibrated and moved around I'm not kidding. They literally rocked back and forth and in some scene the vibration was moving me in my seat.

We didn't pay for the tickets (got them for free), but they cost 24 dollars a pop!! There's another cinema near by with leather seats and servers. You can order food and alcohol. Instead of the usual popcorn stand outside, there is a proper bar. The gimmicky crap they come up with every year is starting to get ridiculous. I must be getting old.

I just remembered that I wanted to send you a couple of more videos, but I forgot.
BTW, I also saw Hobbits when I wanted to experience these 3D, 4D cinemas Yeah, I also found it amazing although, it was a good one time experience and I won't spend my money again for these stuff.

 

[anonymus]

uhhh, I don't know how everyone is an agnostic, but when I touch their religion, they start getting angry. Maybe it is a new type of agnosticism that I don't know about.

I did not defended religion per se ,but corrected some misconceptions ( some of which are quite popular ), and rebutted the fact that India did not had any Scientific achievement.Most of my post was explanation of some core statement that i have made.Even the one related to Islam (and which got you so much worked up) was as a rebuttal to part of your post where you compared Indians with rest.



As for the rest of your post, i have posted genuine links for all assertions that i have made. If you have problem, you could check them and rebut them. I am not posting any explanation again. And in absence of any logical and historical foundation, your post is just an opinion, as is mine ( though having much better factual backing).

 

[rmi5]

I did not defended religion per se ,but corrected some misconceptions ( some of which are quite popular ), and rebutted the fact that India did not had any Scientific achievement.Most of my post was explanation of some core statement that i have made.Even the one related to Islam (and which got you so much worked up) was as a rebuttal to part of your post where you compared Indians with rest.



As for the rest of your post, i have posted genuine links for all assertions that i have made. If you have problem, you could check them and rebut them. I am not posting any explanation again. And in absence of any logical and historical foundation, your post is just an opinion, as is mine ( though having much better factual backing).

rejecting my post can happen if you can provide a list of real authentic scientific achievement of hindus in math, physics, biology, ... I failed to see anything like that. You just brought an example about type of metal forgery, which is not even a supreme one, and which is world wide named after arabs, as hindus achievements. is that it?
Don't be such biassed. Again, whenever I talk with people from hindu background from South Asia, I always sense lack of truth seeking spirit, and healthy logical discussion ability.

@Serpentine I saw that 500 has already responded your quote of my post on Syria thread, with exactly what I wanted to say.

 

[anonymus]

rejecting my post can happen if you can provide a list of real authentic scientific achievement of hindus in math, physics, biology, ... I failed to see anything like that. You just brought an example about type of metal forgery, which is not even a supreme one, and which is world wide named after arabs, as hindus achievements. is that it?
Don't be such biassed. Again, whenever I talk with people from hindu background from South Asia, I always sense lack of truth seeking spirit, and healthy logical discussion ability.

@Serpentine I saw that 500 has already responded your quote of my post on Syria thread, with exactly what I wanted to say.

I have already provided link for list of Indian mathematicians, and another link to a History forum which contain information about India. I am not interested in donkey work of posting achievement of every single mathematician from that link. My objective is not to change your attitude, but to counter your assertions on an open forum.

Also words written in bold are links.

About these religions, they are all garbages. on a personal level, I prefer Abrahamic ones over eastern ones, since at least they won't kill you inside, but they are also based on hoax, and have serious social side effects. There is a solid reason that muslims, christians, and jews have had more advances throughout a long period of history compared to eastern religion followers.

Regarding this statement.

Even if you discredit Indians,What about Japanese and Chinese?

And what about Ancient Greeks and Romans? They were Pagans like Hindus with similar pantheon but with a different name. How come they have more achievement than abrahmics,whether muslims, christians or jews? Why did Europe progressed in Science only after leaving religion?.

 

[IRAN 1802]

@Turkish_FR

Hi my Turkish friend, u are very beautiful and your comments are very very wisely .

 

[rmi5]

I have already provided link for list of Indian mathematicians, and another link to a History forum which contain information about India. I am not interested in donkey work of posting achievement of every single mathematician from that link. My objective is not to change your attitude, but to counter your assertions on an open forum.

Also words written in bold are links.

My statement was simple. What has been their achievement? it is a very simple question.

Regarding this statement.

Even if you discredit Indians,What about Japanese and Chinese?

And what about Ancient Greeks and Romans? They were Pagans like Hindus with similar pantheon but with a different name. How come they have more achievement than abrahmics,whether muslims, christians or jews? Why did Europe progressed in Science only after leaving religion?.

What do you mean by pagan? every religion considers others as pagans.
BTW, what Romans have to do with Hinduism. they don't have even slightest similarity, or connection. I was talking about hinduism not ancient Rome.
BTW, my point was/is about how hinduism has hindered 1/4 of people for millenniums. it does not mean that Abrahamic religions are the best systems of believes. these are 2 uncorrelated issues.

 

[Serpentine]

@Serpentine I saw that 500 has already responded your quote of my post on Syria thread, with exactly what I wanted to say.

Which was bs, I already answered him.

 

[rmi5]

Which was bs, I already answered him.

LOL, he was right. which part you did not agree?
Do you think that this new commander is somehow magically better, and can change everything and capture the deir Al-zur? Assad army has serious problems, which as 500 mentioned, one of its reasons is because of the fact that they have forced sunnis to join his army, while they obviously don't want that.

 

[anonymus]

My statement was simple. What has been their achievement? it is a very simple question.

I have already answered it here.

This is only an odd example. Indian mathematical achievement are numerous and India always had a strong tradition of mathematics. You could review this list yourself. List of Indian mathematicians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia They are not known worldwide because today's dominant intellectual thought is western thought which is based in work of Greeks rather than Indians.An example of this would be Rolle's theorem. This theorem was given by Bhaskara-II of India but it is attributed to Michel rolles..

And here

If you want to know more about Indian History and Culture , you could visit this thread.

Ancient and Medieval achievements of the Indians - Historum - History Forums
.

I could not post each and every invention and discovery separately.

Anyway this argument is going in Circles.

What do you mean by pagan? every religion considers others as pagans.

No, you are wrong on this count. Only Polytheist non-abrahmic religions are considered as Paganism.

Paganism is a broad group of indigenous and historical polytheistic religious traditions—primarily those of cultures known to the classical world. In a wider sense, paganism has also been understood to include any non-Abrahamic, folk, or ethnic religion.

Paganism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pagan | Define Pagan at Dictionary.com

(in historical contexts) a person who is not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim; a heathen.

BTW, what Romans have to do with Hinduism. they don't have even slightest similarity, or connection. I was talking about hinduism not ancient Rome.

Actually there are great deal of similarity between Hinduism and ancient Greek and Roman religions as all of them are religions of same family. This similarity is seen in their pantheons where their gods are interchangable and have similar attribute

Indra ( Hindu ) = Jupiter (Roman)= Zeus (Greek).

Surya(Hindu)= Sol (Roman)=Helios(Greek)

Yama(Hindu)=Pluto(Roman)=Hades(Greek)


and so on......


Even stories of origin and characterstics of all these gods is same.

Hindu and Greek Deities, H.B. Augustine

What parallels can we draw between Indian & Greek Mythology?

Hindu and Greek mythology: How similar they are


Your assertion was that Eastern religions bring insularity while Abrahmic religions bring vigour. Since you were not ready to acknowledge achievement of Indians, i rightly brought in other Pagan religions apart from Hinduism which had similar Gods, similar mythology, similar fables as Hindus in order to prove that your co-relation between Abrahmism and vigour is not only wrong but is in inverse proportion to reality.

 

[rmi5]

I have already answered it here.


And here



I could not post each and every invention and discovery separately.

Anyway this argument is going in Circles.



No, you are wrong on this count. Only Polytheist non-abrahmic religions are considered as Paganism.



Paganism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pagan | Define Pagan at Dictionary.com





Actually there are great deal of similarity between Hinduism and ancient Greek and Roman religions as all of them are religions of same family. This similarity is seen in their pantheons where their gods are interchangable and have similar attribute

Indra ( Hindu ) = Jupiter (Roman)= Zeus (Greek).

Surya(Hindu)= Sol (Roman)=Helios(Greek)

Yama(Hindu)=Pluto(Roman)=Hades(Greek)

Even stories of origin and characterstics of all these gods is same.

Your assertion was that Eastern religions bring insularity while Abrahmic religions bring vigour. Since you were not ready to acknowledge achievement of Indians, i rightly brought in other Pagan religions apart from Hinduism which had similar Gods, similar mythology, similar fables as Hindus in order to prove that your co-relation between Abrahmism and vigour is not only wrong but is in inverse proportion to reality.

You are just another apologizer.
My question was/is simple. name the real achievements. But, you simply fail, because there is simply no scientific indian achievement.
Muslims have created Algebra, they made alcohol, Avicena introduced new methods in surgery, and was first person who did brain surgery, Al-farabi was the person who studied music in a scientific and mathematical manner, muslim geographer traveled around the world and sketched some of the most accurate maps from unknown parts of the world, ibn heysem did a great work in observing and recording stars and planets which was later directly used by tycho brahe, Birouni calculated longitude and latitude of many cities, with an unbelievable accuracy, ...
What indian achievement you are talking about?!!! I have not encountered any indian achievement in my entire life.
What pluto has to do with some indian gods?!!! seriously man.
About the definition of paganism, it is defined by each religion. for islam, every non-muslim is a pagan, no matter of how many gods do you worship. for christians, they referred to pre-christian era european religions as paganism.

 

[Serpentine]

LOL, he was right. which part you did not agree?
Do you think that this new commander is somehow magically better, and can change everything and capture the deir Al-zur? Assad army has serious problems, which as 500 mentioned, one of its reasons is because of the fact that they have forced sunnis to join his army, while they obviously don't want that.

No offense, but your post sounded like a 3 year old reasoning. Are you suggesting all commanders in the world are the same? Of course he is a better commander, and a commander's actions directly affects his troops.

Right now, troops in Deir al Zoor can also retreat, but they won't because their commander is a brave one which gives his troops courage to fight.

If Issam zahreddine retreats and if his replacement is not as good as him, then you can be sure that the airport will fall in days.

 

[rmi5]

No offense, but your post sounded like a 3 year old reasoning. Are you suggesting all commanders in the world are the same? Of course he is a better commander, and a commander's actions directly affects his troops.

why he is so much better? tell me more about this new marshal Rommel

Right now, troops in Deir al Zoor can also retreat, but they won't because their commander is a brave one which gives his troops courage to fight.

LOL, big achievement I thought he has conquered half of europe with your logic

If Issam zahreddine retreats and if his replacement is not as good as him, then you can be sure that the airport will fall in days.

Sorry, but this guy looks more like a clown for me, see the below link:

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

 

[Serpentine]

why he is so much better? tell me more about this new marshal Rommel

He is better because he is better. Why did that question even reach your mind I wonder? He is better because he is braver, and has better war strategies, he is better because all humans are different.

LOL, big achievement I thought he has conquered half of europe with your logic

Do you understand English? I said they don't retreat because of a good commanding structure in Deir al Zoor, unlike Tabqa or Brigade 17, not that it's an achievement.

Sorry, but this guy looks more like a clown for me, see the below link:

This clown is more effective than U.S coalition planes that have barely stopped IS from the air, while ground troops are doing all the job in Iraq and Syria. Doesn't matter how he looks likes to you.

 

[rmi5]

He is better because he is better. Why did that question even reach your mind I wonder? He is better because he is braver, and has better war strategies, he is better because all humans are different.

Do you understand English? I said they don't retreat because of a good commanding structure in Deir al Zoor, unlike Tabqa or Brigade 17, not that it's an achievement.

This clown is more effective than U.S coalition planes that have barely stopped IS from the air, while ground troops are doing all the job in Iraq and Syria. Doesn't matter how he looks likes to you.

Why are you trolling?
my question is very simple. you claim this person to be superior to Syrian commandar of Tabqa air base. Then tell me why?
No, you as a mullah troll who lives in mullahstan, knows more english than me who live in USA.