Iranian Chief of General Staff arrives in Pakistan

[925boy]

Your not so clean yourself on this Bin Ladan gentleman .....

Saying this is an indirect admission you arent clean yourself. cheers.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

remember they found Bin Laden, a man with NO ISLAMIC QUALIFICATIONS, in your country.

Is he a Pakistani? His family, his kids were hosted by your beloved Iran, you know that right?

Guess what? Our number one terrorist, the Indian spy Kulbashan yadev, responsible for numerous killings of our citizens, according to Indians, was picked up by Pakistan from INISIDE Iran.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

How much is publicly know of the talks between the parties? Terrorist attacks on the Iranian side of the border have gone down to nearly zero for the past two years. What about the situation on the other side of the fence?

The situation is that most terror attack in Pakistan are now originating from Iranian soil. Do you hear us telling Persian that we will hit them inside Iranian soil?

Racial supremacism isn't particularly conform to Islamic principles.

Stating facts is not un Islamic.

https://www.worldhistory.org/elam/

Elam was a region in the Near East corresponding to the modern-day provinces of Ilam and Khuzestan in southern Iran (though it also included part of modern-day southern Iraq) whose civilization spanned thousands of years from c. 3200 - c. 539 BCE.

The name comes from the Akkadian and Sumerian for “highlands” or “high country” while the Elamites referred to their land as Haltami (or Haltamti) which seems to have had the same meaning. The Bible (Genesis 10:22) claims the region is named for Elam, son of Shem, son of Noah but this has no support outside of the biblical narrative.

Their language corresponds to no others and has yet to be deciphered so their early history comes from Mesopotamian sources. This applies only to Elamite linear script, however, as their language was preserved in cuneiform script after their contact with the Sumerians.

The origin of the Elamites is considered as mysterious as their language, but they were most likely the indigenous people of the Iranian Plateau whose culture first began to develop during the Mesopotamian Ubaid Period (c. 5000-4100 BCE). Their civilization has been divided by scholars into different periods

Ziggurat consecrated to God Inshushinak at Choqa Zanbil, built about 1250 BC by the king Untash-Napirisha,
_____

History of Iran: Elamite Empire

Iranian Historical & Cultural Information Center

www.iranchamber.com

History of Iran
Elamite Empire
By: Cyrus Shahmiri

Elamite God, Susa, Iran. Beginning of the 2nd millennium BCE

Golden Vase with Winged Monsters. Marlik Region, Iran 14th-13th centuries BCE

Funerary Head of an Elamite, Susa, Iran. 15th-14th centuries BCE

Elamite worshipper, Susa, Iran. 12th century BCE

_____

https://www.dw.com/en/how-iran-became-a-cradle-of-civilization/a-38414704

How Iran became a cradle of civilization

• Date 13.04.2017
• Author Sabine Oelze (ad)

A muscular hero wrestles with two leopards


People drank from goblets in the form of animals

Simple, but functional - this building consisting of one room only was constructed in the sixth millennium BC. The exhibition "Iran. Ancient Culture Between Water and Desert" in Bonn's Bundeskunsthalle museum shows how people lived in the region from the sixth millennium BC until Darius I became king of Persia in 522 BC.

In 2001, police succeeded in safeguarding significant findings that had been looted from the plain of Jiroft, in particular beautiful vessels made of chlorite. This item here dates back to the third millennium BC. Chlorite abounds in a quarry located in Tepe Yahya roughly 90 kilometers from the archaeological site.

Wealthy people who lived back then are believed to have drunk wine from gold goblets at the tombs of their dead. The goblets used during these ceremonies give proof of highly developed manual and technical skills. Half-human and half-animal creatures decorated the cups like reliefs. Their heads were added later on.

This heavy gold jewelry including rings, bracelets and chains, was found in a tomb of two Elamite princesses in the village of Jubaji close to the Persian Gulf in 2007. The princesses were also provided with food and religious items believed to assist them during their journey to the next world.

The Persian Garden has been named a UNESCO's World Heritage Site. A typical inner court garden was reconstructed for the exhibition in Bonn's Bundeskunsthalle. The central water basin with fountains offers refreshment. It is flanked by exotic flower beds. People can relax in a loggia with couches. High walls protect them against the sun - and curious onlookers.

That is not an absolutely strict rule. The Elamite civilization for instance, which is over 5000 years old did not develop around a conglomerate of rivers.

Also, ancient civilizations of the Iranian plateau pioneered the engineering of underground tunnels conducting water from alluvial aquifers so as to irrigate the arid land. Known as the qanat system, it was inscribed on UNESCO's World Heritage List in 2016.

_____

https://whc.unesco.org/en/decisions/6799/

Decision : 40 COM 8B.21
Examination of nominations of cultural properties to the World Heritage List

The World Heritage Committee,

1. Having examined Documents WHC/16/40.COM/8B and WHC/16/40.COM/INF.8B1,
2. Inscribes The Persian Qanat, Islamic Republic of Iran, on the World Heritage List on the basis of criteria (iii) and (iv);
3. Takes note of the following provisional Statement of Outstanding Universal Value:
   Brief synthesis
   Throughout the arid regions of Iran, agricultural and permanent settlements are supported by the ancient qanat system of tapping alluvial aquifers at the heads of valleys and conducting the water along underground tunnels by gravity, often over many kilometres. Shaft wells providing access and ventilation to the tunnels appear as craters from above, following the line of the qanat from water source to agricultural settlement. The eleven qanats representing this system include rest areas for the workers, water reservoirs and watermills. The traditional communal management system still in place allows equitable and sustainable water sharing and distribution.
   Criterion (iii): The Persian Qanat form a historical stratigraphy of past achievements and historical solutions. The vital role of qanat in the formation of various civilisations is so expansive that the basis of civilisation in the desert plateau of Iran has been called “Qanat (or Kariz) Civilisation”. Dispersion of primary settlements on alluvial fans of the inner plateau, desert margins and kavirs (deserts) of Iran has an intimate relation with the distribution pattern of qanat system.
   Criterion (iv): The Persian Qanat is an outstanding example of a technological ensemble illustrating significant stages in the history of human occupation of arid and semi-arid regions in the world. It is the cornerstone of prosperity in desert towns and villages. In arid and semi-arid regions, it has resulted in the creation of a desert style architecture and landscape involving not only the qanats themselves, but also associated structures, such as water reservoirs, water mills, irrigation systems, outstanding desert gardens, as well as urban and rural desert architecture.
   Integrity
   All the selected qanats are still forceful, active and are being used publicly from a functional perspective and has also fully been maintained the integrity of their elements from a physical and structural perspective.
   Survival of qanats throughout centuries is the result of a traditional management system which has remained intact and has been transferred from distant past thanks to the collaboration of people and users. The system has served as a key factor for keeping the integrity of qanats.
   Authenticity
   The authenticity of the eleven qanats has been respected regarding design, technology, building materials, traditions, techniques, management systems, setting as well as intangible heritage aspects based on the science of restoration, natural environment and the indigenous culture. Qanats have been founded and constructed based on social collaboration, communal trust and honesty as well as common sense. Furthermore, their stability and authenticity has been managed, preserved, expanded and developed based on such joint cooperation.

_____

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-00268-8_3

Negar Sanaan Bensi, The Qanat System: A Reflection on the Heritage of the Extraction of Hidden Waters, in Adaptive Strategies for Water Heritage, pp 40-57

_____

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4310182

Brian Spooner, City and River in Iran: Urbanization and Irrigation of the Iranian Plateau, in Iranian Studies, Vol. 7, No. 3/4, Studies on Isfahan: Proceedings of the Isfahan Colloquium, Part II (Summer - Autumn, 1974), pp. 681-713 (33 pages), Published By: Taylor & Francis, Ltd.

_____

Elam was an offshoot of Sumer or Babylon. Its not an indigenous and "true" ancient civilisation like Indus (Nile), Babylon (Mesopotamia) and Egypt (Nile).

Sumer - Wikipedia

Sumer (/ˈsuːmər/)[note 1] is the earliest known civilization in the historical region of southern Mesopotamia (now southern Iraq), emerging during the Chalcolithic and early Bronze Ages between the sixth and fifth millennium BC. It is also one of the first civilizations in the world, along with ancient Egypt, the Caral-Supe civilization, the Indus Valley civilization, the Minoan civilization, and ancient China.

Do you see any so called Persian civilization there?


The lost civilisation of Mehrgarh: A treasure in ruins - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

"Mehrgarh is one of the ancient civilisations of the world, dating back 11,000 years," (i.e 9,000 BC)



Indus Valley civilisation may pre-date Egypt's pharoahs | Daily Mail Online


Indus Valley civilisation may pre-date Egypt's pharoahs: Ancient society is 2,500 years older than thought




Chapter 2 Instructor's Essay: 1st Civilizations: Sumer, Egypt, Indus Valley (washburn.edu)


Thus Egyptian and Indus civilizations were invented independently by the peoples of those lands. Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Indus civilizations are each called a "cradle civilization" meaning it was not borrowed from anywhere else, but developed independently in its own "cradle lands." (DO you see any "persian civilization here??????????????? )




Early Civilization in the Indus Valley [ushistory.org]


But in the 1920s, a huge discovery in South Asia proved that Egypt and Mesopotamia were not the only "early civilizations." In the vast Indus River plains (located in what is today Pakistan and western India), under layers of land and mounds of dirt, archaeologists discovered the remains of a 4,600 year-old city. A thriving, urban civilization had existed at the same time as Egyptian and Mesopotamian states — in an area twice each of their sizes.



Indus–Mesopotamia relations - Wikipedia



It can be easily deduced that since the land which is now called Iran was between the might Indus (Pakistan) and Masopotamia (Iraq), was basically civilized by the original people of the first civilizations. Indus was so huge that it covered the landmass all the way upto southern Turkmenistan. Iranian land was also part of it. Since there was no "persian civilization" BEFORE Indus, it can be easily said that Indus people are the ones who first civilized Iran, alongside Mesopotamians. Iran is never considered as the "cradle of civilization". Whatever it has got, is dependant, borrowed on earlier civilizations/empire.

In the eighth millennium BC, agricultural communities such as Chogha Bonut (the earliest village in Susiana)[4] started to form in western Iran, either as a result of indigenous development or of outside influences. Around about the same time the earliest known clay vessels and modeled human and animal terracotta figurines were produced at Ganj Dareh and Teppe Sarab, also in western Iran.[5][6] The south-western part of Iran was part of the Fertile Crescent. Some of the oldest agricultural ground has been discovered in Susa (now a city still existing since 7000 BC).[7][8] and settlements such as Chogha Mish, dating back to 6800 BC;[9][10] there are 7,000-year-old jars of wine excavated in the Zagros Mountains[11] (now on display at The University of Pennsylvania) and ruins of 7,000-year-old settlements such as Sialk are further testament to that.

Early agricultural communities such as Chogha Golan in 10,000 BC[12][13] along with settlements such as Chogha Bonut (the earliest village in Elam) in 8000 BC,[14][15] began to flourish in and around the Zagros Mountains region in western Iran.[5] Around about the same time, the earliest-known clay vessels and modeled human and animal terracotta figurines were produced at Ganj Dareh, also in western Iran.[5] There are also 10,000-year-old human and animal figurines from Tepe Sarab in Kermanshah Province among many other ancient artifacts.[6]

Mehrgarh predates them all. End of story!

G. The position of Paṣ̌tō within Iranic. (69) Paṣ̌tō undoubtedly belongs to the Northeastern Iranic branch. It shares with Munǰī the change of *δ > l, but this tendency extends also to Sogdian.

...

(70) There appear to be no other special agreements between Paṣ̌tō and any Pamir languages, whether in phonology, morphology, or vocabulary. It is, however, possible that the original home of Paṣ̌tō may have been in Badaḵšān, somewhere between Munǰī and Sangl. and Shugh., with some contact with a Saka dialect akin to Khotanese. But it seems that the Old Iranic ancestor dialect of Paṣ̌tō must have been close to that of the Gathas. (71) It is important to keep in mind the early and profound influence of Indo-Aryan on Paṣ̌tō as well as Paṣ̌tō’s remarkable preservation of many Iranic morphological features, in which respect only Ossetic can compete with or even surpass it.

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/afghanistan-vi-pasto

_____

Pashtuns (/ˈpʌʃˌtʊn/, /ˈpɑːʃˌtʊn/ or /ˈpæʃˌtuːn/; Pashto: پښتانه‎, Pəx̌tānə́;[24] Pakhtuns[25] or Pathans[a]), historically known as Afghans, are the largest Iranian ethnic group[34][35][36][37] native to Central and South Asia.[38] The ethnic group's native language is Pashto, an Eastern Iranian language. Additionally, ethnic Pashtuns in Afghanistan speak the Dari[39] dialect of Persian as a second language,[40][41] while those in the Indian subcontinent use Hindi-Urdu as a second language.[42][43] However, a significant minority speaks Persian or Hindi-Urdu as their first language.[44]

Pashtuns - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pashtun clue to lost tribes of Israel | Israel | The Guardian


Pashtun clue to lost tribes of Israel

King Saul (Talut in Quran)

Ephrahim (Son of Jesoph)

AND Pashtuns/Pakhtoon:

When people themselves say that they carry the blood of prophets, nothing else matters. There are traditions, memories and culture passed down from generations. PAY HEED.

 

[925boy]

Is he a Pakistani? His family, his kids were hosted by your beloved Iran, you know that right?

Guess what? Our number one terrorist, the Indian spy Kulbashan yadev, responsible for numerous killings of our citizens, according to Indians, was picked up by Pakistan from INISIDE Iran.

So basically:

Pakistan's biggest terrorist is picked up inside Iran - big deal.

World's biggest terrorist is picked up inside Pakistan - small deal.

Is that correct? cheers.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

So basically:

Pakistan's biggest terrorist is picked up inside Iran - big deal.

World's biggest terrorist is picked up inside Pakistan - small deal.

Is that correct? cheers.

LOL what an idiot. Ofcourse, for Pakistanis the biggest terrorist would be who endanger them the most. Its common sense.

Seems like you lot been churning them out at some pace in Iran:

BRA Terrorist Killed by unknown assailants in Sarawan area of Iran | Pakistan Defence

 

[925boy]

Your not so clean yourself on this Bin Ladan gentleman you were hosting his family and his group from Afghanistan openly in Iran . On Bin ladan Pakistan did not know where Bin Ladan was ? Not our fault he ended up hiding in Pakistan

THose Bin laden family you think IRan was hosting (not the way your ISI hosted BIn Laden like a global hero), Iran wasnt actually hosting them,Iran was detaining them house-arrest style, to leverage AQ and prevent it from doing suicide bombings in Iran, simple. ISI, MOIS, AQ, they all know each other and IRan had to do what it had to do with Terrorists like AQ to protect its people.

 

[SalarHaqq]

The situation is that most terror attack in Pakistan are now originating from Iranian soil. Do you hear us telling Persian that we will hit them inside Iranian soil?

Truth is that most terror attacks are originating from Pakistani soil itself. Even anti-Iran media in Pakistan don't report otherwise. They attribute one attack in three or four to terrorists crossing the border.

Iranian authorities didn't threaten to hit any Pakistani assets inside Pakistani soil, but terrorists who might be staying there.

But that was not the intent of my remark. I sought to find out which of the two sides at this moment would gain more from the other side extending it a helping hand, after you opined that the "chootya" Iranian general was eating humble pie and asking for Pakistani cooperation. If he really asked for cooperation, it would not have been on Baluchistan, since the Iranian part of that region right now is safer.

Stating facts is not un Islamic.

But discriminatory racialism is, I'd say.

Elam was an offshoot of Sumer or Babylon. Its not an indigenous and "true" ancient civilisation like Indus (Nile), Babylon (Mesopotamia) and Egypt (Nile).

Sumer - Wikipedia

Sumer (/ˈsuːmər/)[note 1] is the earliest known civilization in the historical region of southern Mesopotamia (now southern Iraq), emerging during the Chalcolithic and early Bronze Ages between the sixth and fifth millennium BC. It is also one of the first civilizations in the world, along with ancient Egypt, the Caral-Supe civilization, the Indus Valley civilization, the Minoan civilization, and ancient China.

Do you see any so called Persian civilization there?

Elam isn't an offshoot of Sumer, it was a separate civilization. Its people spoke an unrelated language and were of unrelated origins. Its civilization wasn't identical to Sumer either, one major difference being the fact that Elam did not develop around a river delta but was to a large extent a highland civilization, as shown in my previous post.

That isn't the issue though. I was basically addressing the supposition that there was no civilization in Iran contemporary to Babylon, the Indus Valley and ancient Egypt. The Indo-Iranians (Medians and Persians) arrived later, but Iran was still home to an indigenous civilization as well as several high cultures (Tape Sialk, Jiroft, Shahre Sukhte etc) long before. Let's not obfuscate that reality.

It can be easily deduced that since the land which is now called Iran was between the might Indus (Pakistan) and Masopotamia (Iraq), was basically civilized by the original people of the first civilizations. Indus was so huge that it covered the landmass all the way upto southern Turkmenistan. Iranian land was also part of it. Since there was no "persian civilization" BEFORE Indus, it can be easily said that Indus people are the ones who first civilized Iran, alongside Mesopotamians. Iran is never considered as the "cradle of civilization". Whatever it has got, is dependant, borrowed on earlier civilizations/empire.

It'd be too quick to draw such a conclusion on this basis. If you find any credible academic sources explaining that the inhabitants of the IVC or Mesopotamia generated the Elamite civilization, then please share them. Of course there were influences from abroad. But that doesn't mean Elam was a mere copy of neighboring civilizations, nor that it was founded by the latter. The fact here is that although it wasn't the first one, an indigenous civilization on the southern Iranian plateau did exist during the same historic period as ancient Egypt, Sumer and the IVC.

Mehrgarh predates them all. End of story!

Mehrgarh is a high culture while the IVC is a fully fledged civilization. There were several high cultures on the Iranian plateau during that broad period as well. If Mehrgarh predated them, we still cannot say that there was nothing going on on present day Iranian soil during that same historic era.

Pashtun clue to lost tribes of Israel | Israel | The Guardian


Pashtun clue to lost tribes of Israel

Come on, friend. This is zionist propaganda, really. Pashtuns are an Iranic people, their language is an Iranian one. Are you really going to argue they're descendants of Jews, which is a marginal, essentially non-academic viewpoint?

AND Pashtuns/Pakhtoon:

Well, these people look perfectly Aryan and Iranic to me. Not Semitic nor Jewish at all. If Pashtuns have admixture, it's mostly subcontinental - from present day Pakistan, rather than Levantine or Mesopotamian.

When people themselves say that they carry the blood of prophets, nothing else matters. There are traditions, memories and culture passed down from generations. PAY HEED.

Rigorous scientific findings matter. Also, bear in mind that you can have some ancestry from Abrahamic Prophets and still be non-Semitic to over 90%. That's also the case of seyyeds in Iran or Pakistan for instance: they are indeed descendants of the Prophet of Islam (s), but that doesn't mean that the great majority of their ancestors up to that point weren't Iranians or Pakistanis ie Aryans.

Earlier you contended that Pashtuns would get angered at being associated with Iranians, but honestly, telling them that they're in fact a Jewish "lost tribe of Israel" would probably not garner any more sympathies from them.

 

[925boy]

But that was not the intent of my remark. I sought to find out which of the two sides at this moment would gain more from the other side extending it a helping hand, after you opined that the "chootya" Iranian general was eating humble pie and asking for Pakistani cooperation. If he really asked for cooperation, it would not have been on Baluchistan, since the Iranian part of that region right now is safer.

Let me attempt to answer your good question:

Pakistan to me clearly has more to gain from extending offer of cooperation (and there is nothign wrong with this, and i am still proud Pakistan did this). Why do i say this? Well lets look at regiona equation and see hwo the status quo supports:

• Afghanistan is now a regional situation/toss up/problem for all, and Iran is now the main economic gateway to Afghanistan.
• Pakistani military and border forces seem to be under some pressure and doesnt to be fully containing some terrorist groups lurking and causing problems
• Pakistan doesnt have the resources it seems to fight all its terrorists alone
• Iran can help with point #3, and has a strong record on military ops against anti secessionists and anti- terrorism
• Saudi not "spending" cash on Pakistan like before
• US withdrawing from the Afghanistan has given a good boost to anti- US forces, which Pakistan unfortunately, isnt a member of.
• CPEC, OBOR and IP gas pipeline requires that terrorism and violence on infrastructure and expats reduce in Pakistan, ....China and Russia (probably funder for IP pipeline for Pakistani part of it) need that from Pakistan.
• Iran is now full member of SCO- regional military equation is now in equilibrum and its big CHina deal is active - Pakistan cannot afford to not have Iran in cooperation with it now.
• Cooperation from Pakistan now means that Pakistan probably wants to do a tradeoff deal with IRan - Pakistan stops giving refuge to terrorist groups like Jundullah that US, Saudi or ISrael uses against IRan from the border area, in exchange for Iran killing of any Indian intelligence activity in Iran against Pakistan.
• Tradeoff deal above is smart and good for both Pakistan and IRan in the long run.
• Your neighbors never change, you have to either manage them, or enter all or nothing scenario with them.
• Pakistani govt has very different feeling about Iran than avg Pakistani PDF member

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Truth is that most terror attacks are originating from Pakistani soil itself. Even anti-Iran media in Pakistan don't report otherwise. They attribute one attack in three or four to terrorists crossing the border.

Iranian authorities didn't threaten to hit any Pakistani assets inside Pakistani soil, but terrorists who might be staying there.

But that was not the intent of my remark. I sought to find out which of the two sides at this moment would gain more from the other side extending it a helping hand, after you opined that the "chootya" Iranian general was eating humble pie and asking for Pakistani cooperation. If he really asked for cooperation, it would not have been on Baluchistan, since the Iranian part of that region right now is safer.

You need to keep yourself updated.

BRA Terrorist Killed by unknown assailants in Sarawan area of Iran | Pakistan Defence


What do you mean by Iranian general not threatening Pakistan but wants to hit so called terrorists inside Pakistan? That is blatant intent towards violation of Pakistan sovereignty. And that is not allowed under any pretext, you or any Persian should know better. Similarly, when we have the case of known terrorists on Iranian soil, as linked above, do you hear any Pakistani high up boasting that we will hit these terrorists on Iranian soil?? What I am saying, that Persian needs to keep their loud mouth in check.

The Iranian general wants cooperation on anti terrorism. From unilateral so called action on Pakistani soil (false bravado) to "cooperation", that is called eating humble pie.

Elam isn't an offshoot of Sumer, it was a separate civilization. Its people spoke a different language and were of different origins. Its civilization wasn't identical to Sumer either, one major difference being the fact that Elam did not develop around a river delta but was to a large extent a highland civilization, as shown in my previous post.

But that isn't the issue. I was basically addressing the supposition that there was no civilization in Iran contemporary to Babylon, the Indus Valley and ancient Egypt. The Indo-Iranians (Medians and Persians) arrived later, but Iran was still home to an indigenous civilization as well as several high cultures (Takhte Soleiman, Jiroft, Shahre Sukhte etc) long before. Let's not obfuscate that reality.

Look at the map, where Elam was? Literally next to Mesopotamia. What the chronology of that area? Which came first? Mesopotamia or Elam?

The modern name Elam stems from the Sumerian transliteration elam(a)

Proto-Elamite civilization grew up east of the Tigris and Euphrates alluvial plains; it was a combination of the lowlands and the immediate highland areas to the north and east. At least three proto-Elamite states merged to form Elam



Please pay attention when I say that world only recognize three ancient civilization as the FIRST. The "cardle of civilizations". Indus, Mesopotamia and Nile. Rest are not in the same league. These three are the ELITE.

You keep on ignoring the timelines. Iran/Persia is NO WHERE near to be as ancient as Indus, Masopotamia and Egypt are. So if someone is talking about so called Iranic lineage is simply exhibiting stupidity, specially to those who are already the custodians of much superior and ancient civilizations/empire.

It'd be too quick to draw such a conclusion on this basis. If you find any credible academic sources explaining that the inhabitants of the IVC or Mesopotamia generated the Elamite civilization, then please share them. Of course there were influences from abroad. But that doesn't mean Elam was a mere copy of neighboring civilizations, nor that it was founded by the latter. The fact here is that although it wasn't the first one, an indigenous civilization on the southern Iranian plateau did exist during the same historic period as ancient Egypt, Sumer and the IVC.

Please refer above.

Mehrgarh is a high culture while the IVC is a fully fledged civilization. There were several high cultures on the Iranian plateau during that broad period as well. If Mehrgarh predated them, we still cannot say that there was nothing going on on present day Iranian soil during that same historic era.

Mehrgarh is classed as early IVC. A complete independent, separate, indigenous civilization build by the Inhabitants of Indus plain, now they call themselves as PAKISTANIS.

In Iran, there is no traces of "civilization" that far in ancient history. Remember, the keyword is "civilization". If there was indigenous civilization in Iran back then, it would have been included in the "FIRST" civilizations. And its not.

Come on, friend. This is zionist propaganda, really. Pashtuns are an Iranic people, their language is an Iranian one. Are you really going to argue they're descendants of Jews, which is a marginal, essentially non-academic viewpoint?

Mate, I have spend more then a year just studying this subject. How come it is Zionist propaganda when Pakhtoon themselves draw lineage from "Bani Isreal"??

Its really is a school boy error when people, by en large, confuse Bani Israel with Jews. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Please for the love of god, get this ignorance out of your head.

From twelve sons of Yaqoob (AS) came the Bani Israel, hence the twelve tribes. Out of those twelve, Jews only came from the two tribes, I repeat, those who call themselves Jews are only from two tribes. The rest (10 tribes) have nothing to do Judaism. Hence your claim to have Jewish lineage is really out of ignorance. It was the ten tribes (Pakhtoons ancestors) Vs Jews (the two tribes), they form their own kingdoms (north and south), hell they were at war with each other for hundred years! This is all from the Jews own history. Yes they have the same father Yaqoob (AS) but hell no, Pakhtoon are not from Jews, they have their own lineage and family tree to Yaqood AS.

Well, these people look perfectly Aryan and Iranic to me. Not Semitic nor Jewish at all. If Pashtuns have admixture, it's mostly subcontinental - from present day Pakistan, rather than Levantine or Mesopotamian.

Notice the turbans. How Jews of present day (claiming to be Bani Israel) have completely done away from the the attire of their ancestors. Pathans turbans are exactly the same as depicted in the drawing of ancient Bani Israelis.

Serious scientific findings do matter. Also, bear in mind that you can have some ancestry from Abrahamic Prophets and still be non-Semitic to over 90%. That's also the case of seyyeds in Iran or Pakistan for instance: they are indeed descendants of the Prophet of Islam (as), but that doesn't mean that the great majority of their ancestors weren't Iranians or Pakistanis ie Aryans.

Earlier you contended that Pashtuns would get angered at being associated with Iranians, but honestly, telling them that they're in fact a Jewish "lost tribe of Israel" would probably not garner any more sympathies from them.

Family tree and traditions matter most as scientific findings can be a matter of comparing apple to oranges or is it the chicken or egg which came first.

I disagree, Pakhtoons have been very peculiar about keeping their bloodlines. Its a known fact. And no, they dont draw their bloodlines from Ishmael (AS) three of Abrahamic lineage. This is important aspect which also have implication for the future prophecies in Islam but that will take us in complete tangent so I will leave at it.

And I have already explained to you the difference between Bani Israel and Jews.

 

[Thorough Pro]

People are idiots, to push india out of Iran, we will need to strengthen our relations with Iran.

ISLAMABAD: In a sign of growing defence ties, Pakistani and Iranian militaries on Wednesday agreed on training exchanges and enhanced counterterrorism cooperation.

Bajwa, Bagheri agree on response to terrorism

Maj Gen Mohammad Bagheri also meets PM Imran, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee Gen Nadeem Raza.

www.dawn.com

 

[SalarHaqq]

You need to keep yourself updated.

BRA Terrorist Killed by unknown assailants in Sarawan area of Iran | Pakistan Defence

I was talking of the overall picture. Do a statistical survey as to how many attacks are claimed to have been carried out by elements who crossed the border, vs attacks carried out by elements based within Pakistan.

What do you mean by Iranian general not threatening Pakistan but wants to hit so called terrorists inside Pakistan? That is blatant intent towards violation of Pakistan sovereignty. And that is not allowed under any pretext, you or any Persian should know better. Similarly, when we have the case of known terrorists on Iranian soil, as linked above, do you hear any Pakistani high up boasting that we will hit these terrorists on Iranian soil?? What I am saying, that Persian needs to keep their loud mouth in check.https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/bra-...in-sarawan-area-of-iran.726236/#post-13388016

If Pakistani authorities are certain that the BLA use Iran as a safe haven, then I would not have a problem with them giving Iran the exact coordinates and asking to either take care of these terrorists or expect precision strikes from Pakistan. Maybe the fact that Pakistan has not made such statements is because the BLA has no permanent base in Iran.

The Iranian general wants cooperation on anti terrorism. From unilateral so called action on Pakistani soil (false bravado) to "cooperation", that is called eating humble pie.

Iran has hardly suffered any terrorist attacks in the Baluchestan region for the past two years. So I'd interpret the statement in a different manner.

Look at the map, where Elam was? Literally next to Mesopotamia. What the chronology of that area? Which came first? Mesopotamia or Elam?

The modern name Elam stems from the Sumerian transliteration elam(a)

Proto-Elamite civilization grew up east of the Tigris and Euphrates alluvial plains; it was a combination of the lowlands and the immediate highland areas to the north and east. At least three proto-Elamite states merged to form Elam

Yes, but the same map will tell you that most of Elam's territory was mountainous ie different in nature from Mesopotamia. The mere fact that they were neighbours doesn't mean that Mesopotamians gave birth to Elam.

In fact, the Sumerians spoke of the territory corresponding to Elam in their texts, including in their mythology (epic of Gilgamesh and so on). Some of these texts have been preserved to this day. And if you consult them, you'll see that they considered Elam a foreign land, not a civilization that they themselves created or even inspired in its foundations.

Please pay attention when I say that world only recognize three ancient civilization as the FIRST. The "cardle of civilizations". Indus, Mesopotamia and Nile. Rest are not in the same league. These three are the ELITE.

You keep on ignoring the timelines. Iran/Persia is NO WHERE near to be as ancient as Indus, Masopotamia and Egypt are. So if someone is talking about so called Iranic lineage is simply exhibiting stupidity, specially to those who are already the custodians of much superior and ancient civilizations/empire.

Well, Indus Valley people were as different from present day Pakistanis as Elamites were from contemporary Iranians. Aryans settled in the Indus Valley around 1800 BC at the earliest. Quite similar to Iran.

Elam, which emerged on the Iranian plateau, is a civilization contemporary to the other three you mentioned. Again, it may not have been the first of the quartet but it is from the same era. Back then, time elapsed "slower" and historic eras lasted millennia, not centuries or decades. The Elamite empire survived for no less than 2500 years. That's as long as all other dynasties and states which ruled over the Iranian plateau ever since. Same goes for the IVC and ancient Egypt. A few hundreds of years, by the standards of that era, did not represent that much of a period of time as they do today. Elam was a civilization of early antiquity, much like Egypt, Sumer and the IVC. Early antiquity stretches over several millennia. Yes, Elam came somewhat later, but to claim that it's nowhere from the same historic period wouldn't be accurate.

In Iran, there is no traces of "civilization" that far in ancient history. Remember, the keyword is "civilization". If there was indigenous civilization in Iran back then, it would have been included in the "FIRST" civilizations. And its not.

Mehrgarh is the high culture which preceded the IVC. And there were high cultures during very early antiquity in Iran as well, ie proto-civilizations which included fixed settlements (small towns), social hierarchy, differentiation of professions, arts, statehood etc. The earliest settlements in Iran are located in the mountainous Zagros region and date back to between 10.000 and 8.000 BC.

There is evidence of human habitation in the Zagros Mountains in Western Iran as far back as 100,000 years ago. About 15,000 years ago the inland sea of Iran began drying up. The earliest reports of human settlements go back to 10,000 years ago. By 6000 B.C. village farming was practiced among communities living on the Iranian plateau. At the beginning of the third millennium an important civilization appeared at Elam in the southwestern corner of the plateau.

ANCIENT PRE-PERSIAN EMPIRE, MESOPOTAMIA-ERA SITES IN IRAN | Facts and Details

factsanddetails.com

Mate, I have spend more then a year just studying this subject. How come it is Zionist propaganda when Pakhtoon themselves draw lineage from "Bani Isreal"??

Its really is a school boy error when people, by en large, confuse Bani Israel with Jews. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Please for the love of god, get this ignorance out of your head.

From twelve sons of Yaqoob (AS) came the Bani Israel, hence the twelve tribes. Out of those twelve, Jews only came from the two tribes, I repeat, those who call themselves Jews are only from two tribes. The rest (10 tribes) have nothing to do Judaism. Hence your claim to have Jewish lineage is really out of ignorance. It was the ten tribes (Pakhtoons ancestors) Vs Jews (the two tribes), they form their own kingdoms (north and south), hell they were at war with each other for hundred years! This is all from the Jews own history. Yes they have the same father Yaboob (AS) but hell no, Pakhtoon are not from Jews, they have their own lineage and family tree to Yabood AS.

Notice the turbans. How Jews of present day (claiming to be Bani Israel) have completely done away from the the attire of their ancestors. Pathans turbans are exactly the same as depicted in the drawing of ancient Bani Israelis.

Family tree and traditions matter most as scientific findings can be a matter of comparing apple to oranges or is it the chicken or egg which came first.

Nonetheless Bani Israel were Semitic peoples. However, both the language and genetic make up of Pashtuns aren't Semitic but Indo-European, more precisely Eastern Iranian.

I disagree, Pakhtoons have been very peculiar about keeping their bloodlines. Its a known fact. And no, they dont draw their bloodlines from Ishmael (AS) three of Abrahamic lineage. This is important aspect which also have implication for the future prophecies in Islam but that will take us in complete tangent so I will leave at it.

I'm not saying Pashtuns draw their lineage from Abraham (as). But that having an ancestor among a certain lineage doesn't imply that this lineage represents the majority of one's ancestors.

And for comparison, I cited the seyyeds in non-Arabic countries, such as Iran or Pakistan. Seyyeds as we call them, descend from the Prophet Mohammad (s). But this fact onto itself does not imply that they're Arabs, since most of their ancestors can still be from non-Arabic backgrounds. Likewise, even if Pashtuns had some ancestors among the Bani Israel - which as said is not a scientifically documented claim, this wouldn't mean that they aren't an Iranic and Aryan people first and foremost.

 

[925boy]

People are idiots, to push india out of Iran, we will need to strengthen our relations with Iran.

booom! you understand strategy.

 

[313ghazi]

remember they found Bin Laden, a man with NO ISLAMIC QUALIFICATIONS, in your country.

. There is no evidence of this BS claim.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I was talking of the overall picture. Do a statistical survey as to how many attacks are claimed to have been carried out by elements who crossed the border, vs attacks carried out by elements based within Pakistan.

I am not sure why you are struggling to acknowledge that terrorists are finding abode in Iran! Its not really a rocket science is it?

If Pakistani authorities are certain that the BLA use Iran as a safe haven, then I would not have a problem with them giving Iran the exact coordinates and asking to either take care of these terrorists or expect precision strikes from Pakistan. Maybe the fact that Pakistan has not made such statements is because the BLA has no permanent base in Iran.

Do you not have any concept of national sovereignty?

Iran has hardly suffered any terrorist attacks in the Baluchestan region for the past two years. So I'd interpret the statement in a different manner.

And what would that be?

Yes, but the same map will tell you that most of Elam's territory was mountainous ie different in nature from Mesopotamia. The mere fact that they were neighbours doesn't mean that Mesopotamians gave birth to Elam.

In fact, the Sumerians spoke of the territory corresponding to Elam in their texts, including in their mythology (epic of Gilgamesh and so on). Some of these texts have been preserved to this day. And if you consult them, you'll see that they considered Elam a foreign land, not a civilization that they themselves created or even inspired in its foundations.

What terrain has got to with not being influenced/inspired by far superior and ancient neighbour? To say Elam evolved on its own in isolation, an indigenous entity, just like Indus, Egypt and Mesopotamia (the "first" civilizations), is really stretching the imagination. Yes it evolved into a independent entity but its roots are firmly within next door far ancient neighbour.

Sumer: c. 4500 – c. 1900 BC

Elam: 3200 – 539 BC

Well, Indus Valley people were as different from present day Pakistanis as Elamites were from contemporary Iranians. Aryans settled in the Indus Valley around 1800 BC at the earliest. Quite similar to Iran.

Elam, which emerged on the Iranian plateau, is a civilization contemporary to the other three you mentioned. Again, it may not have been the first of the quartet but it is from the same era. Back then, time elapsed "slower" and historic eras lasted millennia, not centuries or decades. The Elamite empire survived for no less than 2500 years. That's as long as all other dynasties and states which ruled over the Iranian plateau ever since. Same goes for the IVC and ancient Egypt. A few hundreds of years, by the standards of that era, did not represent that much of a period of time as they do today. Elam was a civilization of early antiquity, much like Egypt, Sumer and the IVC. Early antiquity stretches over several millennia. Yes, Elam came somewhat later, but to claim that it's nowhere from the same historic period wouldn't be accurate.

That aryan invasion theory is now debunked. It was spread by British to somehow rewrite history, an attempt to deprive the indigenousness of the IVC to its people who later called themselves Pakistanis. None of the IVC excavations found of any traces of invasion from central Asia of so called Aryans. If any such nation ever existed (maybe under different name but similar characteristic) if would have to be the ancient Pakistan itself. IVC destruction is not caused by any human intervention but most like a cataclysmic event of biblical proportions. Massive flood is a most probable caused.

To this day, the same turbans wore by the people of Mehrgarh 11000 years ago are still adorn by Balochis. Sindhi still take pride in their Ajraks wore by the famous priest king of Mohenjodaro. All Pakistani regional languages Punjabi, Sindhi, Baluchi...... have got roots in IVC. We are exactly the same people as who laid foundations of our civilization around our might Indus.

I am afraid you are using word "contemporary" very loosely here. We are not talking about few hundred years but at least millennium and more. 11000 years ago, ancient Pakistani were not people walking with leaves covering their private parts but a proper , world wide recognized "civilization". There is nothing "contemporary" in your persia which can even come close to IVC, and other two. Please dont take your personal wishful thinking as some historical facts. Elam is not recognised as elite civilization, there are really no ifs and buts here.

Mehrgarh is the high culture which preceded the IVC. And there were high cultures during very early antiquity in Iran as well, ie proto-civilizations which included fixed settlements (small towns), social hierarchy, differentiation of professions, arts, statehood etc. The earliest settlements in Iran are located in the mountainous Zagros region and date back to between 10.000 and 8.000 BC.

There is evidence of human habitation in the Zagros Mountains in Western Iran as far back as 100,000 years ago. About 15,000 years ago the inland sea of Iran began drying up. The earliest reports of human settlements go back to 10,000 years ago. By 6000 B.C. village farming was practiced among communities living on the Iranian plateau. At the beginning of the third millennium an important civilization appeared at Elam in the southwestern corner of the plateau.

Wrong... Mehrgrah is classed a full fledge early IVC, a proper civilization. There is nothing like that in Persia.

Humanity is really not that old unless you believe that our ancestors were monkeys. Our religious scholars give max 15k years, some give it even less. Ofcourse you are free to have your understanding of human evolution.

Nonetheless Bani Israel were Semitic peoples. However, both the language and genetic make up of Pashtuns aren't Semitic but Indo-European, more precisely Eastern Iranian.

Their language, features, their customs, their Pashtunwali code of life (which is basically 10 commandments) and their own family trees and memories passed down their generations, leave them as the only uncorrupted Bani Israel left in this day and age. Jews do not carry the lineage anymore, infact mostly Khazars now.

I'm not saying Pashtuns draw their lineage from Abraham (as). But that having an ancestor among a certain lineage doesn't imply that this lineage represents the majority of one's ancestors.

And for comparison, I cited the seyyeds in non-Arabic countries, such as Iran or Pakistan. Seyyeds as we call them, descend from the Prophet Mohammad (s). But this fact onto itself does not imply that they're Arabs, since most of their ancestors can still be from non-Arabic backgrounds. Likewise, even if Pashtuns had some ancestors among the Bani Israel - which as said is not a scientifically documented claim, this wouldn't mean that they aren't an Iranic and Aryan people first and foremost.

No, its is very important to be clear which branch of the family tree the lineage is coming from. When Pashtun are driving their bloodline from Ishaq (AS) (Isaac) , then its is crystal clear that we are talking about very specifically about Bani Israel. Please refer below for clarity

Hence the reason, that you hardly find any "Syed" among Pashtuns. By en large, they want to be distinguished by their tribal names.


"Syed" name in this day and age has become more like a title then actual lineage. Please dont confuse with Pakhtoon lineage which is very well preserved and as I mentioned earlier, Pakhtoon are very peculiar about keeping their bloodline intact. The first Muslim among them, Qais Abdur Rasheed was the 37th descendant of King Saul, who is mentioned in Quran as Talut.

Your fascination with Persians is understandable, perhaps due to political reasons and agenda, but it really doesnt fly infront of the facts.

 

[SalarHaqq]

I am not sure why you are struggling to acknowledge that terrorists are finding abode in Iran! Its not really a rocket science is it?

The discussion began with the notion that the majority of attacks in Pakistan's Baluchistan originate from Iran, so I responded accordingly.

It's not excluded that some Baluchs from the Iranian side joined the BLA. This is a relatively common phenomenon with cross-border separatist groups. In the same manner, PJAK terrorists attacking Iran have had Kurds with Iraqi or Turkish citizenship in their ranks.

What I'm trying to convey is, this doesn't prove that these people are backed by their respective governments. They're outlaws. Some cross-border activity by the BLA, which is not happening in the majority of attacks they stage, should not be interpreted as evidence for Iranian assistance to these terrorists.

Do you not have any concept of national sovereignty?

If it is established that a neighboring state is deliberately harboring terrorists and aiding them to attack you by setting up bases for them, you are entitled by international law to intervene. Hence why there were no lawsuits against Iran's missile strikes on the MKO camp during Saddam's time, or Iran's strikes on Kurdish separatist bases in northern Iraq. But the government of Pakistan has not accused Iran of engaging in such a policy.

And what would that be?

Simply to find ways to further enhance security in the border areas. In addition to other topics such as naval cooperation, planned joint wargames, the topic of Afghanistan (in particular possible cooperation against "I"SIS) and maybe Azarbaijan.

What terrain has got to with not being influenced/inspired by far superior and ancient neighbour? To say Elam evolved on its own in isolation, an indigenous entity, just like Indus, Egypt and Mesopotamia (the "first" civilizations), is really stretching the imagination. Yes it evolved into a independent entity but its roots are firmly within next door far ancient neighbour.

Sumer: c. 4500 – c. 1900 BC

Elam: 3200 – 539 BC



View attachment 786112

Terrain is relevant because if geological and environmental conditions are different, civilizational foundations will be as well. The natural surroundings shape the way in which early civilizations developed, as well as the form they took.

Hence Elam and subsequent civilizations on the Iranian plateau had to devise their own distinct characteristics and could not simply content themselves with copying everything from the Mesopotamian model. The qanat irrigation system I mentioned earlier, which is considered world heritage by UNESCO and thus a genuine civilizational feature, is an example.

Sumerian texts themselves, even the famous epic of Gilgamesh, make a distinction between their own local civilization and people from the Zagros mountains to the East.

On the whole, early antiquity stretched over several thousand years. Elam was founded some 500 to 1000 years after Sumer, but is still firmly part of the same period of history and therefore a contemporary of the first three. I never debated the fact that it wasn't the first, but it it's more than just an offshoot or simple carbon copy of Sumer.

I am afraid you are using word "contemporary" very loosely here.

I am using it in the sense of belonging to the same historic period ie early antiquity.

We are not talking about few hundred years but at least millennium and more.

Yes, in an era where a millennium meant significantly less than it means today. While that era lasted for some thousands of years, subsequent ones became shorter and shorter. A thousand years in early antiquity corresponds to less than 100 years in today's timescale, in terms of rapidity of technological progression and societal evolution etc.

11000 years ago, ancient Pakistani were not people walking with leaves covering their private parts but a proper , world wide recognized "civilization".

11000 years ago we had no civilizations but high cultures ie the direct predecessors of civilizations, exhibiting many of the typical features of a civilization but not expanded enough to constitute a fully fledged civilization. Civilization in the Indus Valley formed in the 4th millennium BC, local high cultures much earlier.

There is nothing "contemporary" in your persia which can even come close to IVC, and other two. Please dont take your personal wishful thinking as some historical facts. Elam is not recognised as elite civilization, there are really no ifs and buts here.

It's a historical truth that the Elamite civilization on the Iranian plateau surfaced during early antiquity, the same historic era in which Sumer, Egypt and the Indus Valley gave birth to civilizations.

Academic sources on the topic will not tell otherwise. Like here: https://www.worldhistory.org/elam/

Wrong... Mehrgrah is classed a full fledge early IVC, a proper civilization. There is nothing like that in Persia.

My friend, it would contradict your own timelines in this discussion if civilization in the Indus Valley preceded Sumer (4500-4000 BC) by 6000 years... The correct academic term for settlements like Mehrgarh, Göbekli Tepe (Anatolia), Hassuna, Halaf (Mesopotamia), Dilmun (eastern Arabia) and so on is that of high cultures. These high cultures then developed into proper civilizations at a subsequent stage.

And there were high cultures on the Iranian plateau as well, some of which preceded the Elamite civilization, others that are contemporary to Elam. I mentioned some before: Tape Sialk in central Iran, another UNESCO World Heritage site, dates back to 6000 BC and is therefore older than Elam. Jiroft and Shahre Sukhteh in southeastern Iran, around 3200-3000 BC. Local high cultures of southwestern Iran from which Elam evolved are older than 5000 years as well.

These are examples of artifacts from Jiroft:

And yet Jiroft is classified as a high culture rather than a civilization, due to some of its general properties.

When it comes to settlements, the earliest recorded ones in Iran are located in the western Zagros mountains and date back to between 8000 and 10000 BC (see source cited earlier).

Their language, features, their customs, their Pashtunwali code of life (which is basically 10 commandments) and their own family trees and memories passed down their generations, leave them as the only uncorrupted Bani Israel left in this day and age. Jews do not carry the lineage anymore, infact mostly Khazars now.

But in any case, Bani Israel were Semitic tribes. How is the Pashtun language Semitic? Linguists have always classified it as an Iranian idiom from the Eastern Iranian branch of languages.

Here's an academic and detailed enough source to read up on the subject: https://iranicaonline.org/articles/afghanistan-vi-pasto

Ditto for the features, in my book they look more Iranic than Semitic.

No, its is very important to be clear which branch of the family tree the lineage is coming from. When Pashtun are driving their bloodline from Ishaq (AS) (Isaac) , then its is crystal clear that we are talking about very specifically about Bani Israel. Please refer below for clarity

View attachment 786142



Hence the reason, that you hardly find any "Syed" among Pashtuns. By en large, they want to be distinguished by their tribal names.

This doesn't affect the overall genetic make up though. As an example, someone can have Arab or Bani Israel paternal ancestors and still be overwhelmingly Indo-European from the genetic point of view.

"Syed" name in this day and age has become more like a title then actual lineage. Please dont confuse with Pakhtoon lineage which is very well preserved and as I mentioned earlier, Pakhtoon are very peculiar about keeping their bloodline intact. The first Muslim among them, Qais Abdur Rasheed was the 37th descendant of King Saul, who is mentioned in Quran as Talut.

Your fascination with Persians is understandable, perhaps due to political reasons and agenda, but it really doesnt fly infront of the facts.

Problem is that no academic study has questioned the fact that Pashtuns represent an Indo-European and specifically Iranic people... Genetic evidence confirms this as well as their language. So if going by facts, for my part I'd prefer to restrict myself to documented findings substantiated by evidence rather than assertions stemming from folklore but not corroborated by science.