Iran kills 1 Pakistani soldier, 3 injured.

[Norwegian]

Pakistan won't retaliate as Iran is an "Islamic Republic".

Pakistan itself is a hypocritic Islamic republic. What a shame!

 

[HughSlaman]

What they're saying is something else. When they are not talking about paying money to a bunch of people to post in some random forum but they are talking about increasing their capabilities to target infrastructure as everything nowadays involves computers. Take Stuxnet for instance. Also the other thing Israelis don't give a dam about you.

You're right that this is a major part of what they mean; however, when you look at military reports from various countries concerning "cyberspace", and "information warfare", the task of undermining or casting doubts on an opponents ideology or arguments definitely does have a significant role to play. There is an area of intersection between these topics and "psychological operations", and cyberspace is one forum in which such operations take place.

There are many social scientists receiving large sums of money to figure out how to make one's preferred ideas dominant in social networks and in cyberspace more generally.

 

[Azizam]

Pakistan itself is a hypocritic Islamic republic. What a shame!

What do you mean by that? I have no say in Pakistan's internal matters but as an observer all I see is that this idea of incorporating religion into politics and every aspect of people's lives has damaged Pakistan heavily.

You're right that this is a major part of what they mean; however, when you look at military reports from various countries concerning "cyberspace", and "information warfare", the task of undermining or casting doubts on an opponents ideology or arguments definitely does have a significant role to play. There is an area of intersection between these topics and "psychological operations", and cyberspace is one forum in which such operations take place.

There are many social scientists receiving large sums of money to figure out how to make one's preferred ideas dominant in social networks and in cyberspace more generally.

This is a forum that usually attracts far-right wingers from most countries so this group of people here don't represent their respective countries at large nor they can do even a minor difference. I really don't see a reason why this particular forum could be targeted.

 

[HughSlaman]

What do you mean by that? I have no say in Pakistan's internal matters but as an observer all I see is that this idea of incorporating religion into politics and every aspect of people's lives has damaged Pakistan heavily.


This is a forum that usually attracts far-right wingers from most countries so this group of people here don't represent their respective countries at large nor they can do even a minor difference. I really don't see a reason why this particular forum could be targeted.

Some countries -- like Israel, and possibly India -- field vast armies of trolls to press their views on as many internet discussion sites as possible. With enough such trolls actively working for one's ideological cause, one can hope to reach a "tipping point" (credit: Maclom Gladwell) after which one's own views spreads like an epidemic.

 

[Norwegian]

idea of incorporating religion into politics and every aspect of people's lives has damaged Pakistan heavily

We learned nothing from secular West, lol!

 

[Armstrong]

What do you mean by that? I have no say in Pakistan's internal matters but as an observer all I see is that this idea of incorporating religion into politics and every aspect of people's lives has damaged Pakistan heavily.

Not quite; religion has been part-and-parcel of Pakistani politics going as far back as the '50s when Pakistan's economy was booming, Pakistan was socially more progressive than it appears to be now and Pakistan's international standing was considerably better than it currently is !

Unfortunately its the blow-back from the so-called Afghan Jihad where every nutjob from around the world was hosted here and fed religious dogma to fight the Soviets that ended up radicalizing Pakistani society tremendously !

There is a realization in Pakistan (on many levels) that this mistake plunged Pakistan into the mess that we're currently in, that it was further complicated by the Afghanistan of the '90s, the emergence of the Taliban (which contrary to popular opinion....we didn't create....we merely supported) and the general state of misgovernance in Pakistan.

What irk us is that why is it that when blame is being dealt about (as it should) Pakistan and Pakistan alone is made the 'scapegoat' ? What happened to these same Haqqanis being the blue-eyed boys of Washington that are being fought by the States ? These same people were created, supported, romanticized and nurtured by the West (along with us) when they were needed without anyone (including us) thinking about the consequences of this action !

Now most of the Western countries act in a self-righteous manner while laying all the blame on our doorstep.

Heck even as far back as the early '00s Pakistan proposed joint containment of these elements to the US but we were ignored and resultingly the predecesor of these TTP and ilk of their sort slithered into Pakistan creating the much talked about 'Safe Havens' in an otherwise completely peaceful, albeit socially conservative, tribal areas.

 

[JonAsad]

Gali dainay ka siwa kuch sekha hay

Tu nay mulk ki gaddari k siwa kuch sekha hai ayatollah k tattu-

 

[Azizam]

Not quite; religion has been part-and-parcel of Pakistani politics going as far back as the '50s when Pakistan's economy was booming, Pakistan was socially more progressive than it appears to be now and Pakistan's international standing was considerably better than it currently is !

Unfortunately its the blow-back from the so-called Afghan Jihad where every nutjob from around the world was hosted here and fed religious dogma to fight the Soviets that ended up radicalizing Pakistani society tremendously !

There is a realization in Pakistan (on many levels) that this mistake plunged Pakistan into the mess that we're currently in, that it was further complicated by the Afghanistan of the '90s, the emergence of the Taliban (which contrary to popular opinion....we didn't create....we merely supported) and the general state of misgovernance in Pakistan.

What irk us is that why is it that when blame is being dealt about (as it should) Pakistan and Pakistan alone is made the 'scapegoat' ? What happened to these same Haqqanis being the blue-eyed boys of Washington that are being fought by the States ? These same people were created, supported, romanticized and nurtured by the West (along with us) when they were needed without anyone (including us) thinking about the consequences of this action !

Now most of the Western countries act in a self-righteous manner while laying all the blame on our doorstep.

Heck even as far back as the early '00s Pakistan proposed joint containment of these elements to the US but we were ignored and resultingly the predecesor of these TTP and ilk of their sort slithered into Pakistan creating the much talked about 'Safe Havens' in an otherwise completely peaceful, albeit socially conservative, tribal areas.

Mate, I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that Pakistan should be blamed alone. I said from Pakistan's side, this problem is responsible for the destruction of Pakistan as a state so that it's the Pakistanis who have to pay the price for the most part rather than outsiders. Also the outsiders find it easier to blame Pakistan as long as these terrorists are running free inside its territory. West on the other hand, as you know, is partly responsible for the "freedom fighters" that they are fighting in Iraq and Syria so I think their motives are quite clear.

 

[Armstrong]

Mate, I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that Pakistan should be blamed alone. I said from Pakistan's side, this problem is responsible for the destruction of Pakistan as a state so that it's the Pakistanis who have to pay the price for the most part rather than outsiders. Also the outsiders find it easier to blame Pakistan as long as these terrorists are running free inside its territory. West on the other hand, as you know, is partly responsible for the "freedom fighters" that they are fighting in Iraq and Syria so I think their motives are quite clear.

True...true but I think we Pakistanis sometimes feel that we're given more blame than we deserve; did we play a part in the destabilization of the region....yes (the region wasn't destabilized by the Leprechauns...so someone obviously did) but are we 'evil incarnate' as we're made out to be - No....what about the dirty game every other country with-in and with-out the region was playing in this 'region' !

Even when it comes to terrorist running in our country; we've lost more than 50,000 Pakistanis to this menace of terrorism including thousands of soldiers and policemen. Why would we support the very people who are either killing us or even if they aren't....they overlap with the people who are killing us ? I mean the Afghans accuse of us harboring the Afghan Taliban and the TTP who are fighting us say that they swear allegiance to the Afghan Taliban and are housed by the Afghan Taliban in Afghanistan - We'd have to be a special kind of 'retarded' to harbor the people who harbor the people who kill us !

In case of Baluchistan; the last time Iran accused Pakistan of the same thing when their Border Guards were captured....they threatened to send in their boys and voila those Border Guards were freed inside Iran by terrorists residing in Iran - a retort that even our Foreign Office spokesperson retorted with a few days ago !

Is Pakistani soil used by terrorists - Of course; when you've got a 1800 mile long completely porous border with Afghanistan how can one not get terrorists going back and forth between Pakistan and Afghanistan especially when quite a few of them were pushed into Pakistan during the US Invasion of Afghanistan !

But that shouldn't be used as a convenient excuse to externalize one's problems over to Pakistan; a bomb goes off in Afghanistan......blame Pakistan ! A soldier is kidnapped in Iran....blame Pakistan !

Heck I was listening to a former Pakistani diplomat who sarcastically said that the Afghan Government has got a ready-made 'Pin it On Pakistan' statement on hand just in case !

And we're dealing with it the best way we know of (You're a Sri Lankan - Your country suffered for decades with this scourge of terrorism.....you should know better than any of us that it takes a lot of time and a lot of sacrifices to make this go-away) but our problems are precipitated by the obstinacy of others as well.

For example I heard (or rather saw a video on Youtube) the former DG ISI Ehsan-ul-Haq complaining at a conference with Pakistani, Afghans and Western delegates that the Afghans ask us to control the border and stop cross border incursions on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan but when we build border posts over there they lodge protests with us or fire on our posts claiming that this is not the border...that we don't recognize the Durand Line (the International Border between Pakistan and Afghanistan) which leaves us in a damned if we do and damned if we don't kinda situation !

 

[aliyusuf]

The main reason for the blame being labeled against Pakistan and all these actions on the border is because of the morally and ethically weak and corrupt leaders at the helm of affairs for the past 7 to 8 years or so. The weak and corrupt cannot muster the courage required to take bold diplomatic measures to counter the negative publicity being dished out. They resort to making clandestine deals with the west to ensure their hold on power at the expense of national interest.

It is this diplomatic and moral weakness of our leaders that emboldens our not so friendly neighbors to take the steps they are taking at our borders at the moment.

Furthermore the border to our west with Afghanistan and Iran is more than 3000 kms long over an extremely rugged mountainous terrain. Pakistan does not have the resources to seal the whole border and it is impossible to totally patrol it.

The west, Pakistan, India and Iran have all played their own dirty hands in Afghainistan in trying to shape things to their own respective advantage at one time or other after the departure of the Soviets. They are all to blame. Pakistan more so because it had a greater stake. But since our leaders' ill gotten assets are in the west, Saudi Arabia and in India ... they don't open their mouths too much to defend their country diplomatically. Hence everyone is putting all the blame on us because they know that our leaders won't say much. Not even the fact that many TTP fighters killed have been found to be un-circumcised .i.e. they were not even muslims. But did any of our leaders say anything?

Furthermore funding for these terrorists require lots of money. Which Pakistan doesn't have. It is however common knowledge that a major portion of this funding is coming from Saudi Arabia. But no one says anything to Saudi Arabia. Not our leaders. Saudi Arabia is their patron and provide us oil at rock bottom prices so they don't dare say anything. Why the west, which is leading the WOT, is not saying or doing anything is open to question and ponder. The rest of the funding is coming from poppy cultivation which then gets exported world wide right under the noses of the ISAF. But that fact is never highlighted. It is very easy to blame everybody's favorite fall guy Pakistan. That Pakistan has been a victim more than anyone else nobody highlights anymore.

Who are these Taliban really? They are the second generation of the refugees from Afghanistan who were placed in Pakistan at the west's behest during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Whose policy was it to make them religious fanatics? The west and the CIA, so that they could be motivated to raise arms in struggle against the atheist Soviets. Then without a proper exit strategy the west abandoned them here in Pakistani refugee camps ... all 2.5 to 3 million of them. These very Haqqanis have been invited to the White House to pay tribute for their services against the Soviets.

Pakistan did whatever it did, in Afghanistan, in pursuit of establishing geographical depth for its armed forces against an Indian aggression. For that a friendly Afghanistan was needed. In that pursuit it totally ignored the aspect of what was good for Afghanistan and its people. That is where we got it wrong because in that single minded pursuit we transgressed the interests of the afghans. From there on the rest is history.

Now the current issue with Iran.

Jaish-e-Adl is supposed to be operating from Pakistani territory. But allowing them to come and leave Iran is Iran's fault in the first place. They are in an extremely inhospitable terrain in Baluchistan if they are really there. It is not possible to track them down in that terrain without a huge force. Which with Zarb-e-Azb going on and BLA in Baluchistan itself (funded by CIA, India and supplied by Khad) is not possible at the moment.

Now if Iran is truly Pakistan's friend then it would understand Pakistan's problem. Then it would coordinate with Pakistani authorities to nab these miscreants. As a friend It would first do more on its side of the border and not allow them to come inside Iran and if the miscreants manage to come in then they would be prevented from leaving Iran again.

The problem is that they are not likely to hide out in any single place. Its a damn big and rugged terrain. Just like the BLA keep constantly changing their location. If Iran wants pursuit inside Pakistan then it should be a joint action. Pakistan has no problems with that. SOPs can easily be ironed out.

But what happens instead? Iranian border guards kill 1 and injure 3 FC (Rangers) personnel and then hold a nearby town hostage for several hours. Then they go back and 6 or 7 hours later resort to indiscriminate mortar fire on the Pakistani side.

Curious that India is helping Iran build a new seaport that is supposed to be used for supply to Afghanistan as an alternative to Pakistan.

 

[halupridol]

Just for your information, I have Phd. from one of the most prestigious universities in the world.
I mention that because if people like you and F117 think that "there is no shortage of idiots on this forum", you should be aware that not everyone who disagrees with you can easily be classed as "idiot".
I am not trying to boast, just giving you fair warning in case *you* end up looking like an idiot.

yeh Phd kis chiriya ka naam hae....hum toh anpadh gawar hae saab,,,
anyway ur analysis is excellent

There is no need for these dramatic public statements by the Iranians. I do not care for the threatening tone here. Something is fishy; I wonder if RAW has acquired some prominent Iranians as assets.

The whole thing just smells of Indian underhanded trouble-creating tactics....

Before Iran starts warning us, they should take a deep breath and repeat three times "Pakistan has nuclear weapons."
Then they can go back to diplomacy with a clear head.

I now remember reading about some very friendly meetings between Shia clerics from Iran and Hindu holy men from India. The Ayatullahs will curse Sunnis, but then will treat polytheists with the utmost respect. Very strange.

It is clear what is happening, just because of the timing (which can't be coincidence).
Some people in the Iranian security establishment have decided to act as proxies for India in their 4th/5th generation war against Pakistan.
So be it!

 

[Max Pain]

Letting Israeli Air Force use our airspace will be a reasonable option.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Uzair Shafiq [Босс]]

Instead of all the above actions, you could simply control terrorist scum in border area.. no?

You know you cant do that when your reserve's have depleted and you are helping flood victim's/ Zarb-e-Azb/Indian chawalian/Kashmir. ._.

 

[Max Pain]

RIP to the dead.

The reaction from the Pakistani members is mind blowing!!! from the calls of killing Iranian soldiers to the nuking of Tehran!!!!

As it appears there is a great deal of anti Iranian sentiment and hatred amongst the Pakistani members, I always taught that the majority of Pakistanis held positive view of Iran.

and we always did through every thick and thin,
put a leash on your soldiers, allies aren't easily found these days, better be nice to the few that already are in your "allies" list.

 

[Max Pain]

Bibi, I believe the govt of Pakistan and PA support those covertly regardless of what they say publicly.

yeah you believe in a lot of things,
pity not all of em are correct,
but yeah you can believe.