Interesting

[Jf Thunder]

lol…. that reply was for Syed ali haider not you lol….

oh wow, you tagged me so i thought it was referring to me LOLLZZZ

 

[Dubious]

OMG, so we are here to hide EVERY STRAND OF HAIR we find?, well those even peek out of the Hijab you know.
i want a verse from the Quran from the point two you rasied please

So you think transparency is fine as long as a piece of cloth sits on the head? For what purpose is that transparent cloth?

 

[Jf Thunder]

So you think transparency is fine as long as a piece of cloth sits on the head? For what purpose is that transparent cloth?

to cover the head? i for one cannot get the point that someone would get attracted by hair LOLLZZZ, i mean even dudes have hair, i think covering the head is just a sign of respect, like even men should wear the prayer cap before praying, so i think its a sign of respect, I THINK

 

[Dubious]

Everything becomes offensive when it is done outside the cultural norms. That is why I said, covering face is perfectly fine in certain Arab countries (or Afghanistan) because it falls withing their cultural norms but not in the countries where it does not fall within the cultural norms. I have lived good 5 years in States, and have been to Canada, Korea and many other places. I have not seen half naked women on the streets or in the parks or the shopping malls so clearly this kind of attire is not as common as many of us wish to believe. In fact I remember American families complaining about girls coming to public swimming pool in two piece bikini.

What I am saying is also a cultural norm....Veil was a cultural norm in Europe...Until people started labeling it as oppressive....It wasnt a cultural norm for 2-3 yrs but 100 plus!

Women didnt change from then to now, we still have hair, eyes, legs, arms and all.....yet the attitude towards modesty and nudity changed drastically...Where an actress is paid extra to show herself nude...but one who gets a covered role wouldnt be paid that much? and it is a cultural norm to have such scenes in movies...but is it modest?

We have weird cultural norm...once upon a time homosexuality was not a cultural norm now they have rights of all sorts....but is that right?


We have soo many things which are nothing to do with culture but rather are transgression on part of human nature yet they are incorporated as cultural norms.....my question is not regarding what is in or not but IF it is right?!

I have been to many countries in Europe from North (Scandinavian to South Europe) ...

As for not seeing half naked...well, mostly I see American tourists wearing shorts in Summer here in Europe..You can tell they are American from their accent and constant complaining about things and of course not to forget how often they end up walking in the wrong direction (not all of course)

It was in medieval times but today we are not living in that time. Things change with time and smart and relevant are those who adapt. This does not mean I am advocating one go naked on the roads by the way.

But we are the same people....Not all mutations are good and worth adapting...

And in this "forward speed" in no time people will be walking down naked...yet wearing medieval gowns on their special day (wedding, ball dances, graduation) ...I wonder why?

You are generalizing too much. It is probably true for lots of South Asian men but not for every man. According to my own wife, she never noticed Americans or Malaysians gazing her and she, by the way, is a beautiful lady who prefers western attire.

Yes I meant South Asian men....And no not all men....I have met some really lovely men from the White community who care about my izzat and respects my culture...And in return I respect theirs....As I always believe respect is earned and not something given off freely!

I call it excessiveness i.e. Israaf.

hmmm.....Well, I love garments and gowns are my fav....I also noticed my Western colleagues appreciate it....(In Pakistan Anarkali ka fashion chala tha and kameez came to your feet) well I wore a few and EVERY woman in the whole institute appreciated it....Its women nature...

Nobody gets turned on just by looking at some skin even lots of skin for that matter or you'll see everybody walking with .... on the sides of the pools and beaches. We are living in cities and not in jungles.

Again I am not talking about every man...and mind you I have seen (rather some colleagues pointed it out).... even on public transport or just walking down the road...

i know i am right as i am being bashed by you and also by Khala jee, people from both extremes are bashing hence i am walkign on the middle path which makes me automatically right

No one is bashing you...if you call a discussion as a bashing exercise...maybe you are not ready for one

 

[syedali73]

to cover the head? i for one cannot get the point that someone would get attracted by hair LOLLZZZ, i mean even dudes have hair, i think covering the head is just a sign of respect, like even men should wear the prayer cap before praying, so i think its a sign of respect, I THINK

Well as per Quran, females must cover their hairs and the purpose wont be served by donning a see-through dupatta. @Akheilos is right.

 

[Jf Thunder]

What I am saying is also a cultural norm....Veil was a cultural norm in Europe...Until people started labeling it as oppressive....It wasnt a cultural norm for 2-3 yrs but 100 plus!

Women didnt change from then to now, we still have hair, eyes, legs, arms and all.....yet the attitude towards modesty and nudity changed drastically...Where an actress is paid extra to show herself nude...but one who gets a covered role wouldnt be paid that much? and it is a cultural norm to have such scenes in movies...but is it modest?

We have weird cultural norm...once upon a time homosexuality was not a cultural norm now they have rights of all sorts....but is that right?


We have soo many things which are nothing to do with culture but rather are transgression on part of human nature yet they are incorporated as cultural norms.....my question is not regarding what is in or not but IF it is right?!

I have been to many countries in Europe from North (Scandinavian to South Europe) ...

As for not seeing half naked...well, mostly I see American tourists wearing shorts in Summer here in Europe..You can tell they are American from their accent and constant complaining about things and of course not to forget how often they end up walking in the wrong direction (not all of course)



But we are the same people....Not all mutations are good and worth adapting...

And in this "forward speed" in no time people will be walking down naked...yet wearing medieval gowns on their special day (wedding, ball dances, graduation) ...I wonder why?



Yes I meant South Asian men....And no not all men....I have met some really lovely men from the White community who care about my izzat and respects my culture...And in return I respect theirs....As I always believe respect is earned and not something given off freely!



hmmm.....Well, I love garments and gowns are my fav....I also noticed my Western colleagues appreciate it....(In Pakistan Anarkali ka fashion chala tha and kameez came to your feet) well I wore a few and EVERY woman in the whole institute appreciated it....Its women nature...



Again I am not talking about every man...and mind you I have seen (rather some colleagues pointed it out).... even on public transport or just walking down the road...


No one is bashing you...if you call a discussion as a bashing exercise...maybe you are not ready for one

so now let us end this discussion with the fact that i was right, as i have taken the middle path while you and the other dude were wrong

Well as per Quran, females must cover their hairs and the purpose wont be served by donning a see-through dupatta. @Akheilos is right.

learn to look at the "rooh" of the verse, according to the Quran slavery is allowed, but when you look at the "rooh" you wil se it is discouraged

 

[syedali73]

learn to look at the "rooh" of the verse, according to the Quran slavery is allowed, but when you look at the "rooh" you wil se it is discouraged

Instruction are pretty clear in this regard hence finding other or favorite interpretations would be unwarranted.

 

[Jf Thunder]

Instruction are pretty clear hence finding other or favorite interpretations would be unwarranted.

well damn, ok well a not so transparent dupatta would do, ok? happy.
i changed m view because of your strong argument

 

[Dubious]

to cover the head? i for one cannot get the point that someone would get attracted by hair LOLLZZZ, i mean even dudes have hair, i think covering the head is just a sign of respect, like even men should wear the prayer cap before praying, so i think its a sign of respect, I THINK

lolz...That is sooo like some of my relatives in Pakistan....who actually think its a must to cover the head when adhaan is going on but then remove it after athaan...


Allah Ta'ala says: "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts from sin and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their headcovers over their necks and bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women (i.e., their sisters in Islam), or their female slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants free of physical desires, or small children who have no sense of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah altogether, O you Believers, in order that you may attain success.[An-Nur, 24:31]


The word zeenah in the aayah above, literally means "adornment", and includes both (a) that which Allah has adorned, i.e., the woman's natural and/or physical beauty, and (b) that with which they adorn themselves, i.e., jewelry, eye shadow, attractive clothing, hand dye, etc. Soorat An-Nur spells out specifically the commands concerning the fact that a woman's natural beauty and her adornments are to be concealed from strangers except by (1) What may show due to accidental or uncontrollable factors such as the blowing of the wind, etc., and (2) What has been exempted (see explanation at end of this section). Allah also says:

O Prophet, Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their outer garments about themselves (when they go out). That is better so that they may be recognised and not molested. And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Al-Ahzaab, 33:59]


The word khumur (pl. of khimar) refers to a cloth which covers the head (including the ears), hair, neck and bosom. The esteemed mufaasir (Quranic interpreter) Al-Qurtubi explains: "Women in the past used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends over their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar."

Hijab in The Al-Qur'an and Sunnah

 

[Jf Thunder]

lolz...That is sooo like some of my relatives in Pakistan....who actually think its a must to cover the head when adhaan is going on but then remove it after athaan...


Allah Ta'ala says: "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts from sin and not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent, and draw their headcovers over their necks and bosoms and not reveal their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women (i.e., their sisters in Islam), or their female slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants free of physical desires, or small children who have no sense of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah altogether, O you Believers, in order that you may attain success.[An-Nur, 24:31]


The word zeenah in the aayah above, literally means "adornment", and includes both (a) that which Allah has adorned, i.e., the woman's natural and/or physical beauty, and (b) that with which they adorn themselves, i.e., jewelry, eye shadow, attractive clothing, hand dye, etc. Soorat An-Nur spells out specifically the commands concerning the fact that a woman's natural beauty and her adornments are to be concealed from strangers except by (1) What may show due to accidental or uncontrollable factors such as the blowing of the wind, etc., and (2) What has been exempted (see explanation at end of this section). Allah also says:

O Prophet, Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their outer garments about themselves (when they go out). That is better so that they may be recognised and not molested. And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Al-Ahzaab, 33:59]


The word khumur (pl. of khimar) refers to a cloth which covers the head (including the ears), hair, neck and bosom. The esteemed mufaasir (Quranic interpreter) Al-Qurtubi explains: "Women in the past used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends over their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar."

Hijab in The Al-Qur'an and Sunnah

yeah got it, you may have won this battle, but you have not won the war, i will be back for this battle Khala and @syedali73, THIS IS FAR FROM over



what i was trying to say is that the requirements of modesty are similar for men and women,

 

[Dubious]

what i was trying to say is that the requirements of modesty are similar for men and women,

Yes 5 out of 6 are....1 is different ....

 

[Jf Thunder]

Yes 5 out of 6 are....1 is different ....

covering of the head? well Quran is silent about that, when i come to power i will take a "Fatwa" that men are also required to cover their heads, HENCE THE RIGHTS WILL BE EQUAL MUHAHAHAHA

 

[jericho]

to cover the head? i for one cannot get the point that someone would get attracted by hair LOLLZZZ, i mean even dudes have hair, i think covering the head is just a sign of respect, like even men should wear the prayer cap before praying, so i think its a sign of respect, I THINK

I don't know if you are a male/female, I also did not read all 13 pages of this thread to see where have the arguments reached, but just for that sentence, I can say that men do get attracted by hair or to be more specific, hairstyles, but not just the hair itself, its when the person is pretty and her hairstyle is nice, then yes

 

[syedali73]

well damn, ok well a not so transparent dupatta would do, ok? happy.
i changed m view because of your strong argument

The point is my friend, try to follow Islam as closely as possible and if you cant follow it exactly (for a variety of reasons), at-least admit you are making a mistake, and have niyyat that you'll improve. Allah is forgiving, he loves us 70 times (I bet it is far more than that) more than our mothers and I have yet to see a mother who would throw her child, however disrespectful he maybe, into fire. I don't want to go further deep into that because than we'll enter into my favorite subject 'tassawwuf' and this place is not appropriate to talk about those kind of things.

 

[Jf Thunder]

I don't know if you are a male/female, I also did not read all 13 pages of this thread to see where have the arguments reached, but just for that sentence, I can say that men do get attracted by hair or to be more specific, hairstyles, but not just the hair itself, its when the person is pretty and her hairstyle is nice, then yes

i am a dude, and the argument has come to the point where i was proved correct

The point is my friend, try to follow Islam as closely as possible and if you cant follow it exactly (for a variety of reasons), at-least admit you are making a mistake, and have niyyat that you'll improve. Allah is forgiving, he loves us 70 times (I bet it is far more than that) more than our mothers and I have yet to see a mother who would throw her child, however disrespectful he maybe, into fire. I don't want to go further deep into that because than we'll enter into my favorite subject 'tassawwuf' and this place is not appropriate to talk about those kind of things.

ok well, i will continue to fight with my class mates in Uni, i will not stop until i can prove women have equal rights than men, and maybe even more