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Insight: Unable to copy it, China tries building own jet engine

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Can you show up the pic of 10-15 your plane standing in the line having the your indigenous Engine? If no then ship up. if couple of plane fine the engine for testing that dosen't means its done.

Welll Canada, Russia, US , France, Europe

Since when my country is not considered as in Europe?

WS-10 program had troubles, for sure, but it seems that this was the past situation before 2011. We should now admit the obvious.

And, just for your information, some pictures -

J-11B from 22th escadron of 8th division from chinese navy, with WS-10H (H stands for Naval version)...

h7ZvW.jpg


J-11B from I don't know which escadron, I've noted in the comment of this photo that engines are all WS-10A...

mt93j.jpg


J-11B from 32th division of PLA Air Force...

uqDPW.jpg


yrmNU.jpg


jMRQP.jpg


And other pictures of J-11BS with WS-10 are coming...

:coffee:
 
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Can you show up the pic of 10-15 your plane standing in the line having the your indigenous Engine? If no then ship up. if couple of plane fine the engine for testing that dosen't means its done.

I don't have a lot of pictures on J-11BS, planes from Shenyang are not really my favorite...

D4XCS.jpg


IOw4S.jpg


Lrlim.jpg


sSU1I.jpg


wAxk2.jpg


:coffee:
 
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Source?



The only achievement they've achieved was the Indian Air force saying "neigh" to the LCA.

When did this happen? Last I heard they were planning to raise six sqdrns. Ohh may be in your land, CPC filters out success stories of adversaries.
 
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ws-10 engine doesnt count. U can't scrub off the al-31H sticker with your own and pass it off as indigenous..
 
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ws-10 engine doesnt count. U can't scrub off the al-31H sticker with your own and pass it off as indigenous..

If you knew anything about the construction of an engine, then you would know that its is virtually impossible to copy a turbofan engine.

While you can copy the shape, It is nigh-on impossible to figure out the manufacturing process used to make this shape.

WS-10A:

Compressor: 3 fan and 9 compressor stages
Combustors: annular
Turbine: 1 high-pressure and 2 low pressure stages

Al-31:

Compressor: 4 fan and 9 compressor stages
Combustors: annular
Turbine: 2 single-staged turbines

Not exactly a copy heh?
 
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If you knew anything about the construction of an engine, then you would know that its is virtually impossible to copy a turbofan engine.

While you can copy the shape, It is nigh-on impossible to figure out the manufacturing process used to make this shape.

WS-10A:

Compressor: 3 fan and 9 compressor stages
Combustors: annular
Turbine: 1 high-pressure and 2 low pressure stages

Al-31:

Compressor: 4 fan and 9 compressor stages
Combustors: annular
Turbine: 2 single-staged turbines

Not exactly a copy heh?

CHina got a licence to produce those.. now they are indiscriminately producing them violating all norms.. anyways, they haven't perfected it yet. Thats why J-10s fly with al-31 engines cause ws-10 stops randomly during a fast ascent by the fighter.

anyways, it will take a decade for china to come out with reliable engines..
 
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ws-10 engine doesnt count. U can't scrub off the al-31H sticker with your own and pass it off as indigenous..

WS-10 & Al-31 are both different.

Do your research before you open up.

ws-10 engine doesnt count. U can't scrub off the al-31H sticker with your own and pass it off as indigenous..

WS-10 & Al-31 are both different.

Do your research before you open up.
 
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WS-10 & Al-31 are both different.

Do your research before you open up.



WS-10 & Al-31 are both different.

Do your research before you open up.

It seems you know all details about Chinese engine ?

They never reveal officially any real specs about their engines they how would you know both are different ????
 
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WS-10 & Al-31 are both different.

Do your research before you open up.



WS-10 & Al-31 are both different.

Do your research before you open up.

Leadership: Why Russia Has China By The Engines

May 21, 2012: China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. One of these unsuccessful efforts is becoming a major embarrassment, to the point where government officials are complaining about it openly. While the Chinese government tries to control news of leadership conflicts, they often allow arguments to go public when it is believed some public debate might do some good. Such is the case with the uneven effort to manufacture military jet engines in China. The basic problem is the inability of the state controlled aviation company (Aviation Industry Corporation of China) to master the most advanced manufacturing and quality control techniques. The problem is the inability of state-run firms to operate as efficiently as their privately owned counterparts in the West. The public debate points to the continued inability to even achieve the lower (than in the West) manufacturing standards of Russia, whose state-run firms (during the Soviet period) were also never able to match Western standards. Some Chinese officials urge privatizing the engine manufacturers, but many others oppose that on political (not wanting to admit defeat) or practical (losing direct control of a key military industry) grounds. Meanwhile, the manufacturing bureaucrats cannot cope, even after many years of effort and much money spent. While some 20 percent of Chinese warplanes now use Chinese made engines, 80 percent do not and that is something the government has not been able to keep secret.

In the last decade China has poured much money and leadership effort into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese encountered many of the same problems the Russians did in the beginning. Developing the necessary engine design and construction skills is difficult. But China has several advantages. First, they knew of the mistakes the Russians had made and so were able to avoid many of them. Then there was the fact that China had better access to Western manufacturing technology (both legally and illegally). Finally, China was, unlike the Soviets, able to develop their engine manufacturing capabilities in a market economy. This was much more efficient than the command economy that the Soviets were saddled with for seven decades. But the state owned engine manufacturers have been unable to develop the entrepreneurial spirit that works so well in the West (and other, privately owned, segments of the Chinese economy).

The Chinese consider the locally designed and built J-10 aircraft and WS-10A engine part of the learning process and they do learn from their mistakes. But jet engines for combat aircraft are very complex, and China is encountering more problems than they expected. Solutions have not kept up with new problems.

And then there's China not wanting, for a long time, to admit that its own engine development efforts have consistently come up short. For example, two years ago China announced that it was replacing the engines in its J-10 fighter, installing Chinese made WS-10A in place of the Russian made AL-31FN. But last year China quietly ordered several hundred more Russian AL-31FNs. No more talk of using the WS-10A on a large scale.

The Chinese claim the WS-10A is superior to the AL-31F, even though the WS-10A copied a lot of the Russian technology. The Chinese say they have improved on that. But those improvements were often things the Russians already had in the works, like increasing the basic AL-31 lifetime from 900 to 1,500 hours and, most recently, 2,000 hours. Meanwhile the Chinese have failed to master some of the basic manufacturing techniques for high-performance jet engines. Recently Chinese officials publicly made an issue of the Chinese company's inability to master the skills needed to manufacture turbine blades for high-performance jet engines. The reality is that the WS-10A has some serious, and unpredictable, reliability problems, which are becoming obvious. China believes it will be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five years, which implies that Chinese engine manufacturers still have a way to go. It may take longer.

For years China has imported two Russian engines, the $3.5 million AL-31 (for the Su-30, and the local clone, the J11 and Chinese designed J-10) and the $2.5 million RD-93 (a version of the MiG-29's RD-33) for the JF-17 (an F-16 type aircraft developed in cooperation with Pakistan). But in the meantime Chinese engineers thought they had managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL-31 engine. This Chinese copy, the WS-10A, is part of a program that has also developed the WS-13, to replace the RD-93 as well. While the Chinese have been able to build engines that are durable, they are still having problems with reliability and that's a killer with fighter jet engines, where failure in combat can be fatal.

Russian sales of AL-31 jet engines to China have surpassed a thousand, with the addition of several new orders in the past year. This is because China wants to expand its fleet of modern jet fighters (J-10 and J-11) and keep pilots in the air often enough to develop and maintain combat skills. That wears out engines faster. Another reason for the continued orders is persistent Chinese difficulties in developing jet engine manufacturing capabilities. China has been especially keen on freeing itself from dependence on Russian high-performance jet engines for its top-line jet fighters. That has not been happening.

With an increase in orders from the Russian Air Force, the Russian manufacturer of the AL-31 has had to boost production this year by over a third. The Russians also appear confident that the Chinese are not going to solve their engine manufacturing problems any time soon. This can be seen in how China openly (and unsuccessfully) protested restrictions Russia wants on the use of AL-31FN engines. Russia wants guarantees that the AL-31FNs will only be used to power Chinese warplanes and that none of them will be disassembled to assist Chinese engineers in perfecting the illegal Chinese clone of the AL-31FN, the WS-10A. China has been stealing Russian military tech for years, especially since the end of the Cold War. Back then Russia could no longer afford to buy new military gear, and it was only orders from China and India that kept many Russian defense firms in business. With many more orders from the Russian military, the Russian manufacturers feel able to play hardball with China. Russia has China by the engines and is squeezing.
 
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It seems you know all details about Chinese engine ?

They never reveal officially any real specs about their engines they how would you know both are different ????

No, am not an expert on engine and chinese ones, but i do know its not an exact copy of russian engine. That is for sure. heck their exhaust nozzle are different leave aside the inner design.

They may have learned a lot from the russian engine, but WS-10 is not an exact copy.

Do your own research on net and see the pics of both engines, compare them and then try to read whatever is known about these both engines and then infer are they both exactly same or have difference in them.
 
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^ refer the above article.. it does say WS-10 is not an identical copy... but also do notice how recent orders for the 'inferior' al-31FH have exponentially increased.. notwithstanding the complete unreliability of ws-10 engines..
 
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Leadership: Why Russia Has China By The Engines[/url]

Strategy page ??

Anyway, with the current new pics of J-11s coming with WS-10s and J-10B prototype being tested with WS-10 suggest something else, may be they have not gone into mass production, but Chinese do seem pretty confident to have so many new production models and prototypes getting tested on the engine which others say is not worth it.
 
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The problem with the fighter engines are with the engine blades. And most countries new to the building and developing engines have the similar problems. It is the main reason why I think it was Euro Fighter or The Rafale were planning to give the blade technology with the sale. So I am guessing China must have solved the problem with the design or there may still be problems with it.
 
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If you knew anything about the construction of an engine, then you would know that its is virtually impossible to copy a turbofan engine.

While you can copy the shape, It is nigh-on impossible to figure out the manufacturing process used to make this shape.

WS-10A:

Compressor: 3 fan and 9 compressor stages
Combustors: annular
Turbine: 1 high-pressure and 2 low pressure stages

Al-31:

Compressor: 4 fan and 9 compressor stages
Combustors: annular
Turbine: 2 single-staged turbines

Not exactly a copy heh?

Just only need one point to see that these are two different engines - Bypass ratio.

:coffee:
 
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^ refer the above article.. it does say WS-10 is not an identical copy... but also do notice how recent orders for the 'inferior' al-31FH have exponentially increased.. notwithstanding the complete unreliability of ws-10 engines..

More orders for Al-31s don't means that WS-10 is not working. China has hundreds of jets already installed with Al-31s, its producing more and more newer jets, thus they not only have to bring in new WS-10s, but they also need engines for the older fleet. That is where combination of both come into play. They order more AL-31s to keep replacing their older jet engines, but add them to new jets being produced which are critical for their modernization as they can't stop manufacturing planes to wait and let WS-10s get mass produced, which will take time.

So, they are getting WS-10s in new J-11Bs, testing it with J-10B and getting AL-31s to equip J-10s which they are producing in numbers, plus new prototypes get tested with WS-10 too.

Its a mix game, but China will need a few more years when they can truly start mass producing these engines in different variants.
 
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