INS Kamorta vs TCG Heybeliada

[Neptune]

Both seem to be good surface combatants with ASW role in primary. However both are classified as corvettes despite having frigate specifications. I wonder to know publics view on this. Thanks.

(F511) TCG Heybeliada:

(P26) INS Kamorta :

It says it's gonna commissioned by this months. Indian members can provide better information than I could, I believe.

For detailed specs of both ships:

INS Kamorta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

TCG Heybeliada (F-511) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


@Penguin @Aeronaut @Dillinger @Hyperion @Ayush @jarves

 

[Guynextdoor2]

I Loooooooooooooooooveeeeeeeeeeeee Turkey!!!!!!!!!

 

[holysaturn]

Good match but while p-28 is more tilted to a antisubmarine role the Heybeliada is a more balanced ship with surface to surface warfare weaponry too.
1. Heybeliada carries anti ship missiles(harpoon) the p-28 does not(although club is mentioned in some cases,the lack of deck VLS proves otherwise).
2.Heybeliada carries only light weight mk46 torpedoes while p-28 carries NSTL light weight torpedo+sea hake or black shark heavy heavy weight torpedo or varunastra.
3.For cueing the heavy weight torpedo a more powerfull and bigger sonar is need HUMSA NG and it also carries a towed array sonar from atlas eletronik but presence of a towed sonar suite in Heybeliada is not clear.
4.Kamorta also carries RBU-6000 anti submarine rockets and ak-630 CIWS while Heybeliada doesnt have a equivalent.
5.RAM and barak are good matches,but the smart-s is more powerfull than revathi radar(may be replaced in future classes by ashwini aesa naval variant).
6.Last two kamorta class will have composite super structureswhich provides higher stealth and lower weight,not clear what Heybeliada super structure is made of.
7.CODAG propulsion of Heybeliada is superior to CODAD of p-28.

Conclusion,for surface warfare Heybeliada is better but p-28 wins in ASW for which it was primarily designed for.

 

[Archie]

Good match but while p-28 is more tilted to a antisubmarine role the Heybeliada is a more balanced ship with surface to surface warfare weaponry too.
1. Heybeliada carries anti ship missiles(harpoon) the p-28 does not(although club is mentioned in some cases,the lack of deck VLS proves otherwise).
2.Heybeliada carries only light weight mk46 torpedoes while p-28 carries NSTL light weight torpedo+sea hake or black shark heavy heavy weight torpedo or varunastra.
3.For cueing the heavy weight torpedo a more powerfull and bigger sonar is need HUMSA NG and it also carries a towed array sonar from atlas eletronik but presence of a towed sonar suite in Heybeliada is not clear.
4.Kamorta also carries RBU-6000 anti submarine rockets and ak-630 CIWS while Heybeliada doesnt have a equivalent.
5.RAM and barak are good matches,but the smart-s is more powerfull than revathi radar(may be replaced in future classes by ashwini aesa naval variant).
6.Last two kamorta class will have composite super structureswhich provides higher stealth and lower weight,not clear what Heybeliada super structure is made of.
7.CODAG propulsion of Heybeliada is superior to CODAD of p-28.

Conclusion,for surface warfare Heybeliada is better but p-28 wins in ASW for which it was primarily designed for.

Kamorta class was designed keeping Anti Submarine warfare in mind

Indian Navy no longer intends to induct Anti Sub frigates
Kamorta class Will Replace the similarly sized Godawari class Frigates in Anti Sub role

 

[Penguin]

"However both are classified as corvettes despite having frigate specifications"

Destroyers (DD or DDG)

A destroyer is currently the largest type of surface combatant currently under construction for world navies. Destroyers have steadily grown in size (now 5,000 to 10,000 tons), expense (nearly US$700 million apiece) and capability. Generally, a destroyer is considered to be a ship that has all of the sensors (including a sophisticated phased-array radar), combat systems, and weapons needed to operate in a high-threat environment. A number of world navies are currently building ships that, while called frigates, more accurately represent destroyers in size and capability. Examples include the Spanish F-100, the German F-124, and the Dutch De Zeven Provincien classes (all are highly capable ships displacing over 5,000 tons and carrying phased-array radars).

Frigates (FF or FFG)

A frigate is a medium-sized surface combatant (between 2,000 and 5,000 tons) that is either suited for one specific role (anti-submarine warfare or anti-air warfare), or has lesser all-around capabilities than a destroyer. A frigate may be less capable than a destroyer, but is still a relatively sophisticated and expensive (averaging around US$325 million apiece) platform. A frigate is generally the smallest surface combatant that can conduct extended blue-water missions in a high-threat environment.

Corvettes (FS)

Corvettes are fast (around 25 knots or better), well-armed ships that displace between 700 and 2000 tons. A corvette is generally not intended for extended ocean-going operations, and is best suited for regional operations. Corvettes are generally the smallest platforms capable of accommodating the sensors, weapons, and combat systems needed to operate in a medium threat environment. Corvettes are sometimes referred to as light frigates (FFLs). It can be assumed that the hull design for a corvette and that of an offshore patrol vessel are very similar. The differences will be in propulsion and outfitting. Corvettes will have higher speed and therefore less endurance and range than OPV, much greater armament, and less space for provisions and habitability.

What is the difference between Frigate and Destroyer
http://www.amiinter.com/nspd_sample.html

At 3,144 tonnes and considering its armement and sensor suite F22P is a Frigate, comparable to e.g. the Italian Lupo/Artigliere class, though the Type 53H3 (Jiangwei2) from which she derives displaces only 2,393 tons full load and with similar armement and sensors is considered a Light Frigate by many

TCG Heybeliada (F-511) displace 2300-2400 tons full load. Her armament is not more substantial than some of the larger (600-800 ton) FACs (which sometimes are also referred to as corvettes). You could say the same about sensors, with exception of SMART mk2 radar. IMHO Milgem/Ada straddled the boundary of large corvette and light frigate. The bigger TF100 with ESSM, now that's more like a frigate proper, if you consider ROLE rather than ship characteristics. GIven their intended escort role and operating area, Kamorta's a a bit larger.

 

[IND151]

Kamorta class was designed keeping Anti Submarine warfare in mind

Indian Navy no longer intends to induct Anti Sub frigates
Kamorta class Will Replace the similarly sized Godawari class Frigates in Anti Sub role

Thanks for Info.

 

[SrNair]

F-511 carry armaments for surface warfare also.But P-28 used only for ASW.That is a difference

 

[notsuperstitious]

A better picture of Kamorta under construction

 

[Water Car Engineer]

sea trials

 

[Penguin]

Kamorta class was designed keeping Anti Submarine warfare in mind

Indian Navy no longer intends to induct Anti Sub frigates
Kamorta class Will Replace the similarly sized Godawari class Frigates in Anti Sub role

I suppose that's why the IN has a preference for twin hangar ships? With heavyweight ASW torps and RBU-6000?

GODAVARI CLASS
Displacement:
Standard:3,600 tonnes

Full load: 3,850 tonnes
Length:126.4 m (414 ft 8 in)
Beam:14.5 m (47 ft 7 in)
Draught:4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)

Brahmaputra class
Displacement:
Standard: 3,600 tonnes

Full load: 3,850 tonnes
Length:126.4 metres
Beam:14.5 metres
Draught:4.5 metres

Both P16 and 16A can accommodate 2 Sea King or HAL Chetak
Just like P15 and P15A and P17

Kamorta class
Displacement:2,500 - 3,100 tonnes
Length:109.1 m
Beam:13.7 m

i.e. significantly smaller, with only 1 Westland Sea King Mk.42B

 

[kaykay]

F-511 carry armaments for surface warfare also.But P-28 used only for ASW.That is a difference

I don't know why people here are ignoring Klub anti-ship cruise missiles. They are very potent against any surface fleet.

 

[Penguin]

I don't know why people here are ignoring Klub anti-ship cruise missiles. They are very potent against any surface fleet.

Because the P28 Kamorta class doesn't carry any! Their only missiles are 2x8 Barak SAM. To sink a ship, her heaviest weapon would be a) AShM from helicopter i.e. Sea Eagle from SH-3 or Uran from KA-28, or b) heavyweight torpedo. Like other IN ships they carry two twin 533mm DTA-53-11356 fixed torpedo tube launchers fitted amidships and fire the SET-65E/53-65KE torpedoes.533mm. The SET-65E is anti-submarine (active & passive homing torpedo to 8.1n miles; 15 km at 40 knots with a 205 kg warhead) and the Type 53-65 is anti-ship (passive wake homing torpedo to 10.3n miles; 19 km at 45 knots with a 305 kg warhead).

Just as anticipated is the lead ship of the Project 28 Kamorta class of four anti-submarine warfare corvettes. With an aim of 90 per cent indigenisation in the class’s manufacture at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd (GRSE) shipyard in Kolkata, efforts made by the Indian Navy towards its national goal of indigenisation and self-reliance isn’t just a castle in the air. The brand new ASW platforms will stealthily seek and destroy lurking enemy submarines. While the Kamorta will enter service next month, the remaining three ships are to be delivered progressively until 2016. The Kamorta class corvettes also mark many firsts including introduction of the ‘rail-less helo traversing system’ to handle a helicopter on board the ship, foldable hangar door, use of indigenous DMR 249A steel and carbon fibre reinforced plastic (CFRP) superstructure integrated with the steel hull of the ship. Besides reducing the overall top weight, this provides the ship with improved stealth features and reduces life cycle maintenance costs. The ship’s hull form is efficient with excellent sea-keeping and manoeuvrability characteristics having an overall length of 109 metres. The ship can cut through the sea at a very high speed of 25 knots. Hull of the ship is built with warship grade high tensile indigenous steel. The ship’s advanced stealth features will make her less susceptible to detection and help in effective deployment of soft kill measures. The ships will be fitted with complete indigenous state-of-the-art weapons and sensors, including a medium-range gun, torpedo tube launchers, rocket launchers and close-in weapon system. These ships are also equipped with a bow-mounted sonar and are capable of deploying a helicopter, adding considerable punch to the ship’s anti-submarine capability. These ships also feature an advanced Integrated Platform Management System for controlling and coordinating the propulsion, auxiliary and power generation equipment.

World Waits For 2 New Frontline Indian Warships - SP's Naval Forces

The Kamorta-class corvettes, with more than 80 percent indigenous content, are capable of fighting in a NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) environment. The 109 metres long, 12.8 metres wide ship with an approximate displacement capacity of 3,000-tons can achieve a maximum speed of 25 knots. The ship powered by four 3888 KW diesel engines at 1,050 rpm has an endurance to cover nearly 3,450 nautical miles at 18 knots and can carry a helicopter on board. Each ship can accommodate 17 officers and 106 sailors. The anti-submarine warfare capability is largely achieved due to the low signature of radiated underwater noise. The ship having indigenous weapon and sensor suites is equipped with super-rapid gun mounting, anti-aircraft guns, torpedo launcher, rocket and chaff launchers. The ship fittings include early warning, navigation, fire control radars and under-water sensors with integrated communication and electronic warfare systems

India Launches 2nd Home-built P28 Anti-Submarine Corvette

 

[Penguin]

Both seem to be good surface combatants with ASW role in primary. However both are classified as corvettes despite having frigate specifications. I wonder to know publics view on this. Thanks.

The problem here is that corvette, frigates destroyuers indicate roles/capabilities, not ship dimensions. In ww2 frigates were of equal size to destroyers, but differed in a) endurance, b) top speed, c) focus on ASuW or ASW armament. A destroyer could have 4 boilers, and a similar sized frigate just 2 but more bunkerage. Destroyers would have heavyweight torpedoes and bigger main guns, frigates no torps and lighter but often faster firing high angle main guns weapons (AA role), which served them better as escorts.

 

[spectribution]

SIPRI

Transfers of major conventional weapons: sorted by supplier. Deals with deliveries or orders made for year range 2012 to 2012

Note: The ‘No. delivered/produced’ and the ‘Year(s) of deliveries’ columns refer to all deliveries since the beginning of the contract. Deals in which the recipient was involved in the production of the weapon system are listed separately. The ‘Comments’ column includes publicly reported information on the value of the deal. Information on the sources and methods used in the collection of the data, and explanations of the conventions, abbreviations and acronyms, can be found at URL <http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/at_data.html>. The SIPRI Arms Transfers Database is continuously updated as new information becomes available.

Source: SIPRI Arms Transfers Database

Information generated: 08 April 2014




Supplier/ Year Year(s) No.
recipient (R) No. Weapon Weapon of order/ of delivered/
or licenser (L) ordered designation description licence deliveries produced Comments





Russia

R: India (4000) R-73/AA-11 Archer SRAAM (1996) 1997-2012 (3230)

50 3M-54 Klub/SS-N-27 Anti-ship MI/SSM (2003) 2012 (10) For Kamorta (Project-28) frigates

(600) 9M311/SA-19 Grison SAM (2005) 2012 (200) 9M311 (SA-N-11) version; for Kashtan CIWS on 1 Gorshkov aircraft-carrier and 3 Talwar (Project-1135) frigates

(100) 9M317/SA-17 Grizzly SAM (2006) 2012 (50) 9M317 (SA-N-12) version; for Talwar frigates

40 RVV-AE/AA-12 Adder BVRAAM 2006 2012 (40) $22 m deal; for MiG-29K combat aircraft

(250) Igla-S/SA-24 Portable SAM 2008 2008-2012 (250) $26 m deal; delivery 2008-2012

It has anti ship missile. Model is old , shows it with 100mm gun, actually has 76mm SRGM, also 8 tube cell is between the 2 RBU 6000 mortars.

Because the P28 Kamorta class doesn't carry any! Their only missiles are 2x8 Barak SAM. To sink a ship, her heaviest weapon would be a) AShM from helicopter i.e. Sea Eagle from SH-3 or Uran from KA-28, or b) heavyweight torpedo. Like other IN ships they carry two twin 533mm DTA-53-11356 fixed torpedo tube launchers fitted amidships and fire the SET-65E/53-65KE torpedoes.533mm. The SET-65E is anti-submarine (active & passive homing torpedo to 8.1n miles; 15 km at 40 knots with a 205 kg warhead) and the Type 53-65 is anti-ship (passive wake homing torpedo to 10.3n miles; 19 km at 45 knots with a 305 kg warhead).

World Waits For 2 New Frontline Indian Warships - SP's Naval Forces


India Launches 2nd Home-built P28 Anti-Submarine Corvette

On the last picture check behind gun (notice box shaped 76mm) to see 8 cell VLS.

 

[Penguin]

SIPRI

Transfers of major conventional weapons: sorted by supplier. Deals with deliveries or orders made for year range 2012 to 2012

Note: The ‘No. delivered/produced’ and the ‘Year(s) of deliveries’ columns refer to all deliveries since the beginning of the contract. Deals in which the recipient was involved in the production of the weapon system are listed separately. The ‘Comments’ column includes publicly reported information on the value of the deal. Information on the sources and methods used in the collection of the data, and explanations of the conventions, abbreviations and acronyms, can be found at URL <http://www.sipri.org/contents/armstrad/at_data.html>. The SIPRI Arms Transfers Database is continuously updated as new information becomes available.

Source: SIPRI Arms Transfers Database

Information generated: 08 April 2014




Supplier/ Year Year(s) No.
recipient (R) No. Weapon Weapon of order/ of delivered/
or licenser (L) ordered designation description licence deliveries produced Comments





Russia

R: India (4000) R-73/AA-11 Archer SRAAM (1996) 1997-2012 (3230)

50 3M-54 Klub/SS-N-27 Anti-ship MI/SSM (2003) 2012 (10) For Kamorta (Project-28) frigates

(600) 9M311/SA-19 Grison SAM (2005) 2012 (200) 9M311 (SA-N-11) version; for Kashtan CIWS on 1 Gorshkov aircraft-carrier and 3 Talwar (Project-1135) frigates

(100) 9M317/SA-17 Grizzly SAM (2006) 2012 (50) 9M317 (SA-N-12) version; for Talwar frigates

40 RVV-AE/AA-12 Adder BVRAAM 2006 2012 (40) $22 m deal; for MiG-29K combat aircraft

(250) Igla-S/SA-24 Portable SAM 2008 2008-2012 (250) $26 m deal; delivery 2008-2012

This akcnowledged. As sidenote, I discussed the possibility that it is actually launched from those 533mm torpedo tubes (see another thread on the forum) rather than from VLS

Model is old , shows it with 100mm gun, actually has 76mm SRGM, also 8 tube cell is between the 2 RBU 6000 mortars.

On the last picture check behind gun (notice box shaped 76mm) to see 8 cell VLS.

No, the models shows 76mm Oto which is licenced produced in India. There is no VLS between the 2 RBU-6000. Rather, there is a barrier between them, for when they are each firing over a different bow. Much in the same way as on the Delhi and Shivalik and Kolkata classes. The RBU's auto-reload from a below deck magazine (hence the square in the aireal pic)

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