Information Pool & Analysis on Pakistan's AF Aspiration for Su-35 / Su-35S - FLANKER-E

[nadeemkhan110]

Sir, if those 80 F-16s of IAF are projected against 80 F-16s of PAF, than those 80 F-16s of IAF will be falling like a free fall object falling from sky.

in same way if 40 Su-35 of PAF are perojected against 40 Super Su-30 of IAF, than those 40 Su-35 will be falling like a free fall object falling from sky..

yeah like that

 

[Donald Trump]

what abut su-1245 ???????????

You mean this one?

 

[zebra7]

To understand that, in short and not to direct the thread to somewhere else, you can how US dictates the ALLY STATES when it comes to her interest. In-case of Pakistan, US is already beating the drum that we have double crossed them so the Question suits in this situation that whether India can do that to overcome the Master thing. You know what I mean so you have to read the history and after all, it was quoted to the one that understands well what is this term Master where it says US.

Sir, don't mind you comment makes me laugh specially Double crossed U.S -- LOL, is this the reason now U.S is now punishing you for your double cross of the Taliban, haqanni network in afghanistan.

Lets get to the point strainght about your mentioning the term Master -- Can you give some of the reasons and the examples, which makes you think that U.S is the master of the India, and India is not following its independent policies. You must be aware of the fact, that India was the member of NAM, and not the signatory of the CEATO, NATO or Warsaw Pacts.

The US offers are like Indian Dreams comes True thing here as India knows the quality of US Weapons so this situation alone (geopolitics and China, Russia & Pakistan rivalry) created an opportunity for India here to go shopping and especially the platform which was inferior till few years back (F-16) is now loved by India as for production line etc.

Quality of US weapons ?? against whom French/European or Russian but what about the cost, the customization options, no fear of spares supply stopped during war and the COST.

Dreams come true for what.

1. F-16 and F-18 -- it might be the dream come true weapon of some countries, but for the country like India, which can buy weapons from any country of the world bar China have the dream of F-16 HE HE give me a break sir, but nobody in In India is interested in F-16. And for F-18 SH, it could only be possible if IAF starts searching for the alternative to the Rafale, and since this is not happening here, so no F-18 either.

2. C-17, C-170 -- Those were for the transportation fleet needs for the IAF and to ease the pressure from the ageing old Soviets AN transport fleet, and one of the important factor, which is the capability to transport artillery to the mountaneous border front, so attach it with the M777 guns deal and that includes the Chinook helli deal also.

3. P-8i -- Since Russian don't have the alternative to the ASR platform such as P-8i, we go for the U.S which is much needed for the anti-Sub role and since there is a threat from the subs of PN and PLAN is growing in the region.

Here is something which you might not know, and I am adding it

Indo- Japan - U.S Fish hook seabed survillence network SOSUS

Very simple, even if I am unaware, an attempt to contain and corner the China, Russia as well as Pakistan in current situation, one can easily understand what happened in past and exactly history is repeating itself. The history is all there and nothing is hidden though depends who narrates what.

Well there is no relationship between the comment you are answering, I said it was the Pakistan who is already the signatory of the LSA, BECA, and CISMOA and India signed the deal LEMOA which is different from the LSA, and it gives India equal access to use the U.S bases, and the use of the Bases of India is already mentioned CASE TO CASE, unlike LSA, which gives the U.S to use the Pakistani Bases, but didn't gave Pakistani forces the access to the U.S bases around the world.

In first place, why would French leak it as you say so.

I would like to post the comment of an Defence expert PSK

1) The DCNS oriorietary data data, running to 22,400 pages, includes 4,457 pages on underwater sensors, 4,209 pages om above-water sensors, 4,301 pages combat management systems, 493 pages on torpedo launch systems, 6,841 pages on communications systems and 2,138 on navigation systems. This data caters to the Scorpene SSK, Mistral-class LPD & Fremm-class FFGs, & NOT JUST ABOUT SCORPENE SSK ONLY. Hence very few PDF documents have been shared by THE AUSTRALIAN newspaper so far, despite the voluminous data reportably available to it.

2) Secondly, the fact that the data has been redacted indicates that the newspaper first shared it with the Australian ASIS & based upon the latter’s advice, the redaction was done.

3) Now, how did the data reach the Australian newspaper & why? This is the most interesting part, because it has NOTHING to do with DCNS’ Shortfin Barracuda design (since the RAN will go not with SUBTICS or F-21 HWTs, but with ther CMS from Lockheed Martin & HWTs from Honeywell). Apparently there was a DCNS employee (a retired officer of the French Navy) who was retrenched after the JV between DCNS & NAVANTIA was dissolved in the previous decade, with DCNS then promoting its own CM-2000 Scorpene SSK design & NAVANTIA of Spain promoting its S-80 Scorpene design. The retrenched officer reportedly became a consultant & was actively involved in promoting the S-80 Scorpene SSK for the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) & it was the TNI-AL that wanted comparative data for both contenders at that time (especially since neighbouring Malaysia operates two CM-2000 Scorpenes), the S-80, CM-2000, & the Class 209/Type 1400 SSK were being proposed by Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME), before making a final decision. The TNI-AL in December 2011 awarded DSME a US$1.1 billion contract for the construction of the three Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs. At around the samne time, the local Indonesian agent & the retrenched DCNS employee who were promoting the S-80 Scorpene from NAVANTIA probably got in touch with Australian authorities to promote this design for RAN. That’s how the design/performance data package data ended up in Australia & some local Asutralian consultant is the most probable source/supplier of this data to the newspaper. All this will surface in the coming days.

For Scorpene, @PARIKRAMA knows well that what is my opinion about this leak and India's bonuses in the same and to what extent, it becomes the blessing whereby it is said as What If India Played It by looking at the penalty, discounts and upgrades, which is totally a different extent from my end that you did not get it.

I understand what you are reffering, and you are ignoring the simple fact that it was not leaked from anywhere from the India, and there was no such information to get panic thus, there is nothing which India or IAF could take advantage for the cost of the Rafale, because those informations are not sensitive, rather it is the information which DCDN gave to those parties who are interested in Scorpean Subs to show their technical Specification.

Rafale thing, we are still waiting indeed and everyone is at the opinion and I repeat that let the deal be done. Rest about loosing India, I don't know in which capacity you claim because, everyone is committed to her own national interests. Every deal for every nation becomes complex, with things behind the curtain, being mother of the deals along with crossed fingers.

You didn't got my point. To avoid the derailment of the thread, just few keywords

Rafale F3R -- AMCA -- Scorpean --- Nuclear Reactor -- UAE --- M88 engine --- AURA --- nEURON

 

[surya kiran]

Nop !!!! Pakistan Air Force has no interest in F-35 platform. And US F-22 Raptor is not for sale.

Bhai, sarcasm. Itna seriously na lo.

LOL Just like India has genuine interest in Rafale, but is unable to sign the deal.

You better get used to the idea that Pakistan is going to become a frequent Russian hardware buyer.

I like it how Indians get frustrated by these news reports. It is a very positive sign.

Yas yas. Su-35, PakFa, Akula class...everything is Pakistani genuine wish. Rafale, Su-30, Akula class is negotiation. Understand the difference.

Its not frustration, actually, its entertainment!

 

[帅的一匹]

I doubt Russia will sell Su35 to Pakistan, highly unlikely.

 

[fatman17]

This is a non starter

 

[araz]

Sir, this is really interesting scenario with numerous possibilities, so if French get a boot in India by US, then they will be more open to Pakistan and Rafales and other weapons systems can be made available to Pakistan on favourable terms. Though Pakistan will go for Rafale or not is altogether a different issue.

The loss of the Rafal deal would be a great loss to the French. They have a few more deals on going with the Kuwaiti AF but after that if there are no new deals then their aviation Industry is likely to suffer huge job losses. So it is in their interest to keep the Indians engaged. Their problem is that their products are too expensive and the US can provide better. From the point of view of sections both are equally problematic.
Frankly the French Pakistan equation is unlikely to be on the cards as there is very little that other vendors do not offer at a reasonable rates.

 

[Super Falcon]

Sir, don't mind you comment makes me laugh specially Double crossed U.S -- LOL, is this the reason now U.S is now punishing you for your double cross of the Taliban, haqanni network in afghanistan.

Lets get to the point strainght about your mentioning the term Master -- Can you give some of the reasons and the examples, which makes you think that U.S is the master of the India, and India is not following its independent policies. You must be aware of the fact, that India was the member of NAM, and not the signatory of the CEATO, NATO or Warsaw Pacts.




Quality of US weapons ?? against whom French/European or Russian but what about the cost, the customization options, no fear of spares supply stopped during war and the COST.

Dreams come true for what.

1. F-16 and F-18 -- it might be the dream come true weapon of some countries, but for the country like India, which can buy weapons from any country of the world bar China have the dream of F-16 HE HE give me a break sir, but nobody in In India is interested in F-16. And for F-18 SH, it could only be possible if IAF starts searching for the alternative to the Rafale, and since this is not happening here, so no F-18 either.

2. C-17, C-170 -- Those were for the transportation fleet needs for the IAF and to ease the pressure from the ageing old Soviets AN transport fleet, and one of the important factor, which is the capability to transport artillery to the mountaneous border front, so attach it with the M777 guns deal and that includes the Chinook helli deal also.

3. P-8i -- Since Russian don't have the alternative to the ASR platform such as P-8i, we go for the U.S which is much needed for the anti-Sub role and since there is a threat from the subs of PN and PLAN is growing in the region.

Here is something which you might not know, and I am adding it

Indo- Japan - U.S Fish hook seabed survillence network SOSUS

Well there is no relationship between the comment you are answering, I said it was the Pakistan who is already the signatory of the LSA, BECA, and CISMOA and India signed the deal LEMOA which is different from the LSA, and it gives India equal access to use the U.S bases, and the use of the Bases of India is already mentioned CASE TO CASE, unlike LSA, which gives the U.S to use the Pakistani Bases, but didn't gave Pakistani forces the access to the U.S bases around the world.





I would like to post the comment of an Defence expert PSK

1) The DCNS oriorietary data data, running to 22,400 pages, includes 4,457 pages on underwater sensors, 4,209 pages om above-water sensors, 4,301 pages combat management systems, 493 pages on torpedo launch systems, 6,841 pages on communications systems and 2,138 on navigation systems. This data caters to the Scorpene SSK, Mistral-class LPD & Fremm-class FFGs, & NOT JUST ABOUT SCORPENE SSK ONLY. Hence very few PDF documents have been shared by THE AUSTRALIAN newspaper so far, despite the voluminous data reportably available to it.

2) Secondly, the fact that the data has been redacted indicates that the newspaper first shared it with the Australian ASIS & based upon the latter’s advice, the redaction was done.

3) Now, how did the data reach the Australian newspaper & why? This is the most interesting part, because it has NOTHING to do with DCNS’ Shortfin Barracuda design (since the RAN will go not with SUBTICS or F-21 HWTs, but with ther CMS from Lockheed Martin & HWTs from Honeywell). Apparently there was a DCNS employee (a retired officer of the French Navy) who was retrenched after the JV between DCNS & NAVANTIA was dissolved in the previous decade, with DCNS then promoting its own CM-2000 Scorpene SSK design & NAVANTIA of Spain promoting its S-80 Scorpene design. The retrenched officer reportedly became a consultant & was actively involved in promoting the S-80 Scorpene SSK for the Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) & it was the TNI-AL that wanted comparative data for both contenders at that time (especially since neighbouring Malaysia operates two CM-2000 Scorpenes), the S-80, CM-2000, & the Class 209/Type 1400 SSK were being proposed by Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME), before making a final decision. The TNI-AL in December 2011 awarded DSME a US$1.1 billion contract for the construction of the three Class 209/Type 1500 SSKs. At around the samne time, the local Indonesian agent & the retrenched DCNS employee who were promoting the S-80 Scorpene from NAVANTIA probably got in touch with Australian authorities to promote this design for RAN. That’s how the design/performance data package data ended up in Australia & some local Asutralian consultant is the most probable source/supplier of this data to the newspaper. All this will surface in the coming days.




I understand what you are reffering, and you are ignoring the simple fact that it was not leaked from anywhere from the India, and there was no such information to get panic thus, there is nothing which India or IAF could take advantage for the cost of the Rafale, because those informations are not sensitive, rather it is the information which DCDN gave to those parties who are interested in Scorpean Subs to show their technical Specification.



You didn't got my point. To avoid the derailment of the thread, just few keywords

Rafale F3R -- AMCA -- Scorpean --- Nuclear Reactor -- UAE --- M88 engine --- AURA --- nEURON

Mr zebra 7 I don't know and understand what you saying US punishing Pakistan on supporting Taliban to give you answer your mouth will be shut forever

1 where. We're you when these haqqani having white house vvip tour why don't you criticise them now criticise us

2 USA took their work from Taliban's and haqqanis and leave them on us and US sitting 10000 miles in usa it has no direct relationship with Afghanistan but Pakistan has Pakistan will decide which groups are in their interests

Why don't you open your mouth in 90s when with these Taliban's USA doing nothing

Top of it tel me which policy of USA india has denied since modi govt in power

USA Has decided to **** you and at the end leave you to he eaten by China and pakistan due to traitors hip you do to Asia continent allowing US free interference in Asian waters

The loss of the Rafal deal would be a great loss to the French. They have a few more deals on going with the Kuwaiti AF but after that if there are no new deals then their aviation Industry is likely to suffer huge job losses. So it is in their interest to keep the Indians engaged. Their problem is that their products are too expensive and the US can provide better. From the point of view of sections both are equally problematic.
Frankly the French Pakistan equation is unlikely to be on the cards as there is very little that other vendors do not offer at a reasonable rates.

Deal for 36 IAF JETS won't matter to French anything since modi asking them to sell in lesser price

French can double it with UAE Kuwait and Qatar orders india is not important RAFALE deal us over atleast on paper2 years has passed not a single screw officialy put on IAF order

Times have changed india has no future with Russia all policies india following is against Russian interest and top of it they are joining hands to US to destroy china which is biggest importer of Russian arms

India denied MIG 35, MI 28 and submarines from Russia

So Russia selling to Pakistan now sooner you see impact grow up india is not end of the world india is mostly in position to dictate Russia they have better economy than india

i dont think russia would give su-35 to pakistan because its more advanced than what indians have currently... india will threathen them in some way or the other and it will fall out, i think!

 

[zebra7]

Mr zebra 7 I don't know and understand what you saying US punishing Pakistan on supporting Taliban to give you answer your mouth will be shut forever

1 where. We're you when these haqqani having white house vvip tour why don't you criticise them now criticise us

2 USA took their work from Taliban's and haqqanis and leave them on us and US sitting 10000 miles in usa it has no direct relationship with Afghanistan but Pakistan has Pakistan will decide which groups are in their interests

Why don't you open your mouth in 90s when with these Taliban's USA doing nothing

Top of it tel me which policy of USA india has denied since modi govt in power

USA Has decided to **** you and at the end leave you to he eaten by China and pakistan due to traitors hip you do to Asia continent allowing US free interference in Asian waters

Brother read the whole narrative, and all the discussion I was having with our rech and dev member @The Eagle. Read his comment for which I replied.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

Is it true?

nah just a hype train

 

[zebra7]

Deal for 36 IAF JETS won't matter to French anything since modi asking them to sell in lesser price

French can double it with UAE Kuwait and Qatar orders india is not important RAFALE deal us over atleast on paper2 years has passed not a single screw officialy put on IAF order

Just a little correction -- 189 Rafale for IAF, Prospects for 40 Rafale-M for Carriers for Indian Naval Aviation, 6 Scorpean Subs, 2 Nuclear Reactor, Collaboration on QRSAM, Stealth UAV's is not a small deal buddy.

Times have changed india has no future with Russia all policies india following is against Russian interest and top of it they are joining hands to US to destroy china which is biggest importer of Russian arms

LOLZ Did you considered S-400, Super Sukhoi, Additional MKI, 144 FGFA, Akula Subs, Stealth Frigates, MI-37, MTA which will cross 40 Billion Mark. Why excited with few U.S-indo deal, but remember those were not available with the Russian such as P8i, and C-17, C-170 and Chinook are related to M777 and mountaneous warfare specific.

India denied MIG 35, MI 28 and submarines from Russia

Denied MIG-35 ?? It took part in MMRCA and failed against 4 other competitor, MI28 -- ??, and Which Russian Subs -- ??

So Russia selling to Pakistan now sooner you see impact grow up india is not end of the world india is mostly in position to dictate Russia they have better economy than india

Good Luck then, and BTW even North Korea has shown interest in SU-35 and S-400 and they are seeking those weapons from Russia, but good question is whether Russia is ready to sell them or not ??

 

[Zarvan]

This is a non starter

Well a senior military officer is in Russia to discuss SU-35 and other defense equipment

 

[aamirzs]

Both Russian Su-35, Su-37 Jets

https://sputniknews.com/military/20160908/1045073021/pakistan-russia-negotiating-fightersu-jets.html

 

[SQ8]

Both Russian Su-35, Su-37 Jets

https://sputniknews.com/military/20160908/1045073021/pakistan-russia-negotiating-fightersu-jets.html

THe Su-37 is not even a production aircraft. So this sort of makes the entire news seem suspect or at least incomplete.

It wont happen anyway so it is better to focus on probables rather than two minute side discussions between officials.

 

[SrNair]

I am betting here that if India chooses any US fighter jet like F16/F18 then Pakistan in all probability will get Su35 under a line of credit arrangement for a 20year low interest loan...

Russia will play smart surely and will tell India since you can buy American fighters so Pakistan can surely buy Russian flankers... And there won't be any restriction of engines , weapons etc..

They will term all other relations with India is still strategic but will open the pathway to Pakistan defence market. Then the onus is on Pakistan how to widen it further. Bcz you folks can get much more with strengthening of economy and paying some hard cash to Russians..

@waz
What you think about this bro

You are absolutely right .But problem is the institutional mentality .PAF is far better than us in F 16 ,since they are using those for decades .And for us F 16 wont be much worth in battle field against PAF .
Similar case is also happens when they Su 35 .We are best in using Su series on par or even better than Russians .

But all these talks would deliver the real results only when Pakistan can economically handle the Russians .
Russians wont invest in a loss case.If selling to the Pakistanis wont give enough results and instead if that cause several other billion deals from India .then they will back off.

Its all about economy .

the problem here is sir russians services after sale and parts supply is not good . we do not want another problem after USA .

Russians are not that reliable ,your next neighbour Iran is best example.
We also faced such issues.Fact is we created all these complex criteria for MMRCA because of the infeasibility and cost of Russian Su series.