Indonesia Defence Forum

[Gundala]

LOL we have derailed from topic. Like I said there are some history being tailored to suit one side where the other side do the same so it become blury. But the fact remain; after the war Israel took over Palestine land, some might argue its their right after getting attacked first as war prize for being the winner but that debatable as well. So lets end this by being agree to disagree

 

[Indos]

7 Vietnamese fishing vessels are captured in Natuna sea

 

[antonius123]

Well.. in that case where's the Palestinian state then...? hmm..?
Regardless, you can't just come to someone else's land and suddenly claim 30%, 50%, or 90% of them, and force the inhabitants to accept it.

Someone else land? whose land was it?
It was under British Mandatory, hence the authority of governance belong to British.

Of course it matters! Supported by whose people exactly...? If it's supported only by the invading people then it's nothing but occupation.. Did the native Palestinian people supported the creation of an Israeli state in their land..?

Where doest it matter?
If you learn the history of Israel establishment, they never invaded any teritorry during the establishment, so there should be no occupation. If British transfer their authority/governance on Palestinian Land to Israel governance, it did not violate any law.

Which native Palestinian people you refer? Jews they accepted Israel state, if Moslem Arab could not accept then what should be the solution? then it should remain under Brittish Mandatory, or there should be 2 nation state on the land: Jewish state as aspired by Jews, and Arab state as requested by Moslem or Arab countries; but Arab did not accept any, they just refuse Jewish state in the middle east and perhaps would eradicate Jews there if possible.

Nonsense.. One can help Jews without having to support a Jewish state, no different to one helping Muslim without supporting Saudi Arabia, or helping a Chinese without supporting PRC or Taiwan..

But what kind of help that Arab countries did at that time?

 

[Whizzack]

Not directly related to us but... for reference regarding CAATSA

https://twitter.com/x/status/1338546737884098560

a brief review of the document :
- ...for knowingly engaging in a significant transaction... :
What counts as a significant transaction? is it contract value? if so what's the limit? USD 10 mil / 100 mil /1 B? or is it the strategic value of the arms (LoRAD, FIghter jets, etc) ? I'm wondering if we can avoid CAATSA when buying less valuable / less strategic arms like APCs, IFVs, artillery pieces, light arms, etc... Afterall our Marines are really fond of their Russian gears, and was planning on getting more BMP-3Fs, BT-3Fs... Also whether we can do modernization / upgrade of existing arms (ex Flanker fleet).

- ...imposing sanctions on the Republic of Turkey's Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB)... :
What is this SSB actually? Is it a government branch of Turkey? Is it a holding company of defense industries? a SOE? a private defense firm or company? an export-import company? if it turns out to be just a defense or export-import firm, then perhaps one can just create a shell company headed by someone of little significance and tasked to do all the importings from Russia...

- ... The sanctions include a ban on all US export licenses and authorizations to SSB, and an asset freeze and visa restrictions to SSB's president and other officers... :
The sanctions seems to be very limited in scope, only to SSB, it's president and officers... no trade sanctions, banking/financial sanctions, arms embargo , etc... So if it's someone that has no assets in the US, nor travels to the US, or have any business links in the US, then the sanctions will not affect that person much right..?

 

[Whizzack]

Someone else land? whose land was it?
It was under British Mandatory, hence the authority of governance belong to British.

The land of the native Palestinians of course, who else..?
First of all, it's not "British Mandatory" it's "British Mandate"... Do you even understand what it means..?
It means that after WW1 the British has the responsibility to administer the territory as mandated by the League of Nations until such time that the territory become stable enough for self-rule... It was never a British territory or colony to begin with, it's not their right to give away...

Where doest it matter?
If you learn the history of Israel establishment, they never invaded any teritorry during the establishment, so there should be no occupation. If British transfer their authority/governance on Palestinian Land to Israel governance, it did not violate any law.

Yes, they didn't invade at first, because they first came as immigrants and later as refugees to Palestine... only later, especially after WW2 that they began to forcefully seize more territories around them. Btw the British didn't handover anything to the Jews or Zions or Arabs... they just left when the territory became chaotic by ending the mandate and handing it over to the UN... there were no rights of determinations, or votes, or referendum or anything for the Palestinians.

if Moslem Arab could not accept then what should be the solution?

If there was a vote or a referendum and the majority of the Palestinian refused the creation of Israel or the partition, then in my personal opinion, the best solution would be to create a state of Israel in Europe, in territories taken from Germany.. After all it's the Germans that did the genocide... and most of the Jews were of European origin.

But what kind of help that Arab countries did at that time?

I don't know what help the other (non-Palestinian) Arabs gave them, but the Palestinians gave them shelter when they were refugees.. and the Palestinian well being is all that matters here, after all it is the Palestinian territory that's under Israeli occupation and not Saudi Arabian, or UAE, or Iraq, etc... btw the official UN term for Palestine territory is the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), that in itself is already self explanatory of the current status of Palestine, no matter how much you or Israel wants to sugarcoat it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Well.. I think I have derailed this thread far enough... This is the Indonesian thread, not Palestine, or Israel, nor middle east history... The only reason it was posted here is because there were news that we were considering recognizing Israel... But our MOFA has confirmed that it's not true, at least until the 2-state solution is realized, so there's nothing else to discuss regarding this matter now...

Indonesia Denies in Talks with Israel

Indonesia denies Israeli media claims of normalizing ties with Israel and thus reaffirming their unwavering support for Palestine.

jakartaglobe.id

 

[Gundala]

7 Vietnamese fishing vessels are captured in Natuna sea

Vietnam? I thought we already settled overlapping EEZ with them, or is it just some fisherman nakal?

 

[antonius123]

The land of the native Palestinians of course, who else..?
First of all, it's not "British Mandatory" it's "British Mandate"... Do you even understand what it means..?
It means that after WW1 the British has the responsibility to administer the territory as mandated by the League of Nations until such time that the territory become stable enough for self-rule... It was never a British territory or colony to begin with, it's not their right to give away...

Let set aside semantic play at the moment.

The question is: "who is the native Palestinian?" arab or jews, and why? Because newly immigrating Jews could also claim they are native Palestinian also as their ancestor was coming from that land who left their land/property behind due to war/oppression/etc.

Furthermore: the fate of the land could not be based on nativity; all the settler have same right to decide. Same like Singapore when she was founded, majority of the people were not native, but all the settler tried to decide their fate and formulated it into a nation concept called Singapore.

Although not British Colony, it was under British Mandate. You know what it means?
That means under british governance/rule, not under Arab nations; that means Palestinian land doesnt belong to Arab nations but was "empty".

Yes, they didn't invade at first, because they first came as immigrants and later as refugees to Palestine... only later, especially after WW2 that they began to forcefully seize more territories around them. Btw the British didn't handover anything to the Jews or Zions or Arabs... they just left when the territory became chaotic by ending the mandate and handing it over to the UN... there were no rights of determinations, or votes, or referendum or anything for the Palestinians.

What do you mean those immigrants/refugee seize more territories around them? Becoming immigrant doesnt mean they have to attack, rob and occupy someone property. The notion that Jews immigrant looting native arab houses is baseless accusation. As new immigrant you can land on shelters, work for money and later on buy house/properties. Same like arabs immigrated to palestine land thousand years ago and became settler, doesn't mean they rob Jew's house.

This false notion reside and some of our fellows, and become the false foundation for them to judge.

British did not hand over to Jews, but intended so.
In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain the Mandate for Palestine under terms which included the Balfour Declaration with its promise to the Jews, and with similar provisions regarding the Arab Palestinians.

So based on this, later on UN proposed UN Partition Plan for Palestinian land that allow Jewish State and Arab State on the land.

If there was a vote or a referendum and the majority of the Palestinian refused the creation of Israel or the partition, then in my personal opinion, the best solution would be to create a state of Israel in Europe, in territories taken from Germany.. After all it's the Germans that did the genocide... and most of the Jews were of European origin.

Referendum regarding Israel fate can only be done on Israel citizen.
We can't run referendum on non Israel citizen (current Palestinian country), for the fate of Israel nation.
Israel people want Israel state, and we never heard any rebellion inside Israel demanding referendum.

I don't know what help the other (non-Palestinian) Arabs gave them, but the Palestinians gave them shelter when they were refugees.. and the Palestinian well being is all that matters here, after all it is the Palestinian territory that's under Israeli occupation and not Saudi Arabian, or UAE, or Iraq, etc... btw the official UN term for Palestine territory is the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), that in itself is already self explanatory of the current status of Palestine, no matter how much you or Israel wants to sugarcoat it.

Can you back this with credible source?

Well.. I think I have derailed this thread far enough... This is the Indonesian thread, not Palestine, or Israel, nor middle east history... The only reason it was posted here is because there were news that we were considering recognizing Israel... But our MOFA has confirmed that it's not true, at least until the 2-state solution is realized, so there's nothing else to discuss regarding this matter now...

Indonesia Denies in Talks with Israel

Indonesia denies Israeli media claims of normalizing ties with Israel and thus reaffirming their unwavering support for Palestine.

jakartaglobe.id

We are discussing on why Indonesia must view Israel as the collonialis nation. You can put this discussion somewhere else which you think more suitable anyway.

 

[waz]

Brothers stick to Indonesian news please. You can discuss Palestine on other threads.

 

[Indos]

Vietnam? I thought we already settled overlapping EEZ with them, or is it just some fisherman nakal?

Nope, we havent settled the dispute yet. I suspect it is due to overlapping claim, not necessarily intruding our EEZ in purpose.

 

[182]

KRI Klewang 625 (1)
by KKIP | Dec 2, 2020 | Artikel | 0 comments

Bagian 1

Bicara soal perkembangan kapal perang, Indonesia tidak kalah dengan negara-negara lain. Salah satu yang menjadi kebanggaan Indonesia adalah KRI Klewang 625 yang dibuat oleh PT Lundin.
KRI Klewang 625 ini merupakan tipe Kapal Cepat Rudal (KCR) Trimaran (tiga lunas/trimaran). Kapal ini dipersenjatai misil antikapal C-705 berdaya jelajah 120 km, juga dipersenjatai dengan meriam otomatis Type 730.
Selain itu KRI Klewang 625 juga dilengkapi sistem Sewaco modern, dan diproyeksikan akan menjadi kekuatan pemukul TNI AL yang handal dan menakutkan di lautan, karena mampu menginduksi panas dan sulit dideteksi oleh radar lawan.

Spesifikasi
Bicara soal spesifikasi, kapal yang dibuat di Banyuwangi memiliki spesifikasi yang luar biasa.

1. Panjang
Untuk panjang efektif 60,7 meter sedangkan untuk panjang keseluruhan (length overall) mencapai 63 meter. Untuk panjang kapal sendiri bila di permukaan air (length on waterline) 61 meter.

2. Water Draft.
Untuk water draft sendiri 1,2 meter.

3. Beam Overall
Beam overall 16 meter

4. Bobot
Untuk bobot keselurunan mencapai 219 ton. Sedangkan untuk berat bobot mati dari kapal ini 53,1 GT.

5. Kecepatan
Bicara soal kecepatan maksimum mencapai tiga puluh lima knot.

6. Mesin
Menggunakan empat unit mesin penggerak pokok. Mesin utama 4x MAN 1800 marine diesel engine nominal 1.800 PK [3]+ 4x waterjet MJP55. Dengan adanya empat mesin ini mampu menembus ombak setinggi enam meter.

7. Jangkauan
Untuk jangkauan sendiri range 2.000 nm (mill laut).

8. Persenjataan
Seperti yang dijelaskan di atas, persenjataan sendiri KRI Klewang 625 misil antikapal C-705 dan meriam otomatis Type 730 (7 laras kaliber 30 mm), Untuk C-705 sendiri memiliki spesifikasi singkat sebagai berikut:

9 .Hulu ledak: 110 Kg HVDT-H high explosive.
10. Mesin: motor roket.
11. Propellant: solid fuel.
12. Kecepatan: High sub sonic.
13. Jangkauan: 75 – 80 Km
14. Pemandu : Radar/TV/Infrared
15. Bahan Pembuatan Kapal
Kapal cepat dengan struktur utama terbuat dari konstruksi sandwich dengan lapisan kulit (face skin) dari komposit serat karbon (CFRP) yang lebih ringan daripada konstruksi metal.

16. Dek kapal
Secara internal, kapal memiliki tiga dek. Akomodasi pasukan hingga dua puluh sembilan orang, termasuk tim pasukan khusus menggunakan 1 buah RHIB X2K 11 meter yang mampu mencapai kecepatan 50 knot



KRI Klewang 625 (2)
by KKIP | Dec 7, 2020 | Artikel | 0 comments

Sumber Foto : Wikipedia

Bagian 2

Pembuatan Kapal
Proses pembuatan kapal ini menghabiskan dana sekitar seratus empat belas miliar yang diambil dari anggaran belanja modal devisa tahun anggaran 2009. Kapal ini menapaki sejarah baru industri kapal perang di Indonesia, karena untuk pertama kalinya dalamkelas trimaran menggunakan bahan komposit sandwich dengan serat karbon.



Kelebihan KRI Klewang 625
Salah
satu kelebihan yang paling menonjol dari Klewang 625 memiliki teknologi
Stealth yang tidak bisa dilacak oleh radar.Teknologi stealth ini juga
dimiliki pesawat terbang intai F-117 Night Hawk milik Angkatan Udara
Amerika Serikat.


Klewang 2 akan segera meluncur
Meski semua spesifikasi mumpuni, sayangnya Klewang 625 harus terbakar sebulan setelah peluncuran, sehingga kita tidak bisa melihat secara langsung bentuk fisik dari kapal ini. Meski begitu, sebentar lagi akan diluncurkan Klewang 2 yang akan menggantikan Klewang 625 dengan spesifikasi yang tidak jauh berbeda.

KKIP said soon, so folks get ready

 

[Whizzack]

Klewang 2 akan segera meluncur
Meski semua spesifikasi mumpuni, sayangnya Klewang 625 harus terbakar sebulan setelah peluncuran, sehingga kita tidak bisa melihat secara langsung bentuk fisik dari kapal ini. Meski begitu, sebentar lagi akan diluncurkan Klewang 2 yang akan menggantikan Klewang 625 dengan spesifikasi yang tidak jauh berbeda.

KKIP said soon, so folks get ready

Oh man! can't wait for this... I wonder if we will see Swedish subsystems (CMS, weapons) in it..? If not, any guess from where...? Not Chinese I hope...

 

[Gundala]

Bicara soal kecepatan maksimum mencapai tiga puluh lima knot.

35 knots!!!! That is the real Kapal Cepat Rudal!! But I have enough PhP for this baby. Hopefully she will hit the water soon to be tested.

Oh btw 705 for the missiles? Really? Im guessing we still have lots of them instock

 

[Whizzack]

Time for Rafale to shine..?

Will scars from US sanctions drive Indonesia to buy Rafale?

Indonesia needs new fighter aircraft, that much is clear, but its traditional appetite for buying both Russian and US hardware may have been supressed by fears of Washington's policy whims, potentially opening the door to France and the Dassault Rafale.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[182]

Ai-450 ER

Dimensions
Wingspan : 2.48 m

Weights
Max takeoff weight : 5500 grams
Max payload weight : 700 grams
Airframe
Material : Composite Fibeglass
Performance
Endurance : 60 – 70 minutes
Operation Attitude : max 1000 m ASL
Cruise Speed : 80 kmh
Propulsion : Electric Bushless Motors
Range : 60 km
Mapping Capacity : up to 4000 Ha/day
Communication
System Frequencies : 2.4 GHz Remote 900 MHz Telemetry
Range : 10 km
Sensor Option
High Resolution Imaging : Sony A5000
Perusahaan Pembuat : PT. Global Inovasi Informasi Indonesia


KKIP: another drone project? lets wait & see, more incoming drones next year guys

 

[Gundala]

Time for Rafale to shine..?

Will scars from US sanctions drive Indonesia to buy Rafale?

Indonesia needs new fighter aircraft, that much is clear, but its traditional appetite for buying both Russian and US hardware may have been supressed by fears of Washington's policy whims, potentially opening the door to France and the Dassault Rafale.

www.flightglobal.com

Yea specially after the turks sanction, some embargo phobia people might be triggered.
But to be honest Im not sure how our MoD going to come up with enough budget/resource to get the Rafale, and if its a mix of brand new/used one they going to have to dance around the regulation and domestic politics wave.