Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

some cukong or classic embargo reason? or those russophile shift their suggestion to european?

None, just classic corruption.

Literally the biggest reason why so many people in the government are against US FMS deals is because of transparency. Everything in an FMS deal is specified by item and price. There's very little leeway for them to majorly corrupt the deal unless they did what that General did with the Apache funds and literally just steal the money. They just use terms like 'embargo', 'non-aligned', and 'diversification' as a smokescreen. The only diversification they want is diversifying their wallets.

That's why Kemenkeu likes the DSCA system and everyone else hates it.

 

[Lasa-X]

meanwhile kfx predicted cost per unit 130 MiO usd more than f35 (100 MiO in 2019) , if this prediction true, then sokor made a huge mistake not to make multinational fighter program

Meet the K-FX: South Korea's Own Unique Stealth Fighter?

Not so fast.

nationalinterest.org

.

Imho the only mistake Sokor made is inviting Indonesia to join FX project.

 

[Cromwell]

Always have, the Su-35 deal involved a lot of companies that are close to the administration. What does that tell you about it?

I just hate that deep rooted corruption here. We will never get things straight if we continue being like this

 

[Cromwell]

what's is more important and political than the president himself and his mod?

Interests, interests stand above political tools.

 

[san.geuk]

I just hate that deep rooted corruption here. We will never get things straight if we continue being like this

Interests, interests stand above political tools.

too much accommodate business interest against upcoming adversary, meanwhile upnorth they creating platform like peanut swarming in front of our yard

 

[san.geuk]

Imho the only mistake Sokor made is inviting Indonesia to join FX project.

that's another mistake, but they should not to ambitious in this program, even the US who mature enough in their aviation industry build f35 through jsf program funded by several countries, if turkey joint s.korea and Indonesia, at least cost burden will be lesser, apparently s.korea too egoistic to accept turkey offer 50:50 cost sharing, and now they suffer their because their own pride

 

[Fl0gger]

Credit to original uploader

 

[Nike]

 

[Raduga]

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are those chinese oerlikon ?

 

[Fl0gger]

Yes they are chinese oerlikon

 

[Gundala]

meanwhile kfx predicted cost per unit 130 MiO usd more than f35 (100 MiO in 2019) , if this prediction true, then sokor made a huge mistake not to make multinational fighter program

Meet the K-FX: South Korea's Own Unique Stealth Fighter?

Not so fast.

nationalinterest.org

.

I have posted about this issue before. What Korea need the most from us is "market/buyer" to bring the economic scale down to acceptable level thus making the cost of the fighter cheaper. It will cost more per-airframe compare to F-35 and the only thing that KFX has more is range and speed. I predict KFX will cost around the price of Rafale.

For us we have to buy 48-60 block 1 fighter that is unproven, Sokor can handle this risk cuz they have F-35 and other advance fighter. How about us? We simply cant afford the risk. One of the reason I support our govt to reduce the KFX purchase down to 16. We can simply buy more if its turn out good.

India's teja, rafale, gripen, even eurofighter are few example how the fighters can be expensive if they dont meet decent economic scale (total fighter sales). Now imagine if we Individually making indigenous fighter, I cant even imagine how much its going to cost per-fighter. What we have with Sokor is great plan but with poor execution (cost and benefit wise). I personally prefer we pay more but get so much more or just simply dont do it at all.

US who mature enough in their aviation industry build f35 through jsf program funded by several countries

Coba kita lihat dari perspective yg berbeda. F-35 in other perspective is to promote US world domination/hegemony thru US private company jet program funded/build/support by many countries. Europeans now see this, their homegrown european made fighters simply cant compete with the F-35 price and capabilities thus slowly killing their own aviation industry. Perhaps thats why some of them are now trying to develop their own Gen-6 fighters wihtout the involvement of any US companies. Even German and France wanted to reduce US content in their military products to 0. Trying to shake US hegemony inside their own products?

Its not just that, let me introduce to one of F-35 advanced feature ALIS (Autonomic Logistics Information System). You can check it out here
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/autonomic-logistics-information-system-alis.html

It sounds good for maintenance purposes right? But hold on a sec check out the bold word;
" ALIS integrates a broad range of capabilities including operations, maintenance, prognostics, supply chain, customer support services, training and technical data. A single, secure information environment provides users with up-to-date information on any of these areas using web-enabled applications on a distributed network "

There are some rumour that this sytems also store any mission information systems operated by any F-35 fighter who conected to ALIS. We know that F-35 featured great camera systems right? So any mission, any where in the world can be logged and see by the US? Another hegemony program by US? No formal confirmation information about this feature but surely something that we must be aware of.

 

[Nike]

I have posted about this issue before. What Korea need the most from us is "market/buyer" to bring the economic scale down to acceptable level thus making the cost of the fighter cheaper. It will cost more per-airframe compare to F-35 and the only thing that KFX has more is range and speed. I predict KFX will cost around the price of Rafale.

For us we have to buy 48-60 block 1 fighter that is unproven, Sokor can handle this risk cuz they have F-35 and other advance fighter. How about us? We simply cant afford the risk. One of the reason I support our govt to reduce the KFX purchase down to 16. We can simply buy more if its turn out good.

India's teja, rafale, gripen, even eurofighter are few example how the fighters can be expensive if they dont meet decent economic scale (total fighter sales). Now imagine if we Individually making indigenous fighter, I cant even imagine how much its going to cost per-fighter. What we have with Sokor is great plan but with poor execution (cost and benefit wise). I personally prefer we pay more but get so much more or just simply dont do it at all.

Coba kita lihat dari perspective yg berbeda. F-35 in other perspective is to promote US world domination/hegemony thru US private company jet program funded/build/support by many countries. Europeans now see this, their homegrown european made fighters simply cant compete with the F-35 price and capabilities thus slowly killing their own aviation industry. Perhaps thats why some of them are now trying to develop their own Gen-6 fighters wihtout the involvement of any US companies. Even German and France wanted to reduce US content in their military products to 0. Trying to shake US hegemony inside their own products?

Its not just that, let me introduce to one of F-35 advanced feature ALIS (Autonomic Logistics Information System). You can check it out here
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/autonomic-logistics-information-system-alis.html

It sounds good for maintenance purposes right? But hold on a sec check out the bold word;
" ALIS integrates a broad range of capabilities including operations, maintenance, prognostics, supply chain, customer support services, training and technical data. A single, secure information environment provides users with up-to-date information on any of these areas using web-enabled applications on a distributed network "

There are some rumour that this sytems also store any mission information systems operated by any F-35 fighter who conected to ALIS. We know that F-35 featured great camera systems right? So any mission, any where in the world can be logged and see by the US? Another hegemony program by US? No formal confirmation information about this feature but surely something that we must be aware of.

The only well known Aviation industry with long heritage to produce fighter Aircraft in Europe survived until today is Dassault, SAAB, BaE system, Airbus and Alenia Aermachi. The lack of commitment toward defense spending is the cause of decline European manufacturing industry to compete with US companies, with lack of order they can't compete competitively against US companies. Actually US government is very welcoming the more robust western European Aircraft industry manufacturer as in the past and until today they even let the European companies to bid for US program tender as more is merrier and competition spurs technology breakthrough actually, one of the successfull programme is BaE Harrier program for the Marines Corps and Navy, T45 Goshawk and other aircraft like C27 and C235. And BaE system is actually part team of competitive tender alongside Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin to defeat McDonnell Douglas team in around 1997-2000. Meanwhile at the same time the very same BaE system is developing Eurofighter Typhoon. Thus, the notion about US trying to impose hegemony over European manufacturing aircraft industry is very false to begin with, as they know deep down when competitor is dying, the competition will be lack and technology breakthrough will be very lacking and that's the last thing they expected.

About ALICE, when even layman such as your can read such article not to mention the European defense planner and other countries who actually involved in the program and co developing the ALICE programme itself and let their respective government to keep in touch with the progress, the pro and con and believe it still more countries is willing to touch and joint the F 35 programme than not.

 

[Gundala]

The only well known Aviation industry with long heritage to produce fighter Aircraft in Europe survived until today is Dassault, SAAB, BaE system, Airbus and Alenia Aermachi. The lack of commitment toward defense spending is the cause of decline European manufacturing industry to compete with US companies, with lack of order they can't compete competitively against US companies. Actually US government is very welcoming the more robust western European Aircraft industry manufacturer as in the past and until today they even let the European companies to bid for US program tender as more is merrier and competition spurs technology breakthrough actually, one of the successfull programme is BaE Harrier program for the Marines Corps and Navy, T45 Goshawk and other aircraft like C27 and C235. And BaE system is actually part team of competitive tender alongside Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin to defeat McDonnell Douglas team in around 1997-2000. Meanwhile at the same time the very same BaE system is developing Eurofighter Typhoon. Thus, the notion about US trying to impose hegemony over European manufacturing aircraft industry is very false to begin with, as they know deep down when competitor is dying, the competition will be lack and technology breakthrough will be very lacking and that's the last thing they expected.

About ALICE, when even layman such as your can read such article not to mention the European defense planner and other countries who actually involved in the program and co developing the ALICE programme itself and let their respective government to keep in touch with the progress, the pro and con and believe it still more countries is willing to touch and joint the F 35 programme than not.

Im talking about jet fighter technology, not transport. Harrier got thru simply because they dont have the technology nor other nations at that time. Like I said I just want us to look from different perspective. It would be naive saying US base company not willing to take the opportunity to become worldwide leader thru F-35 while still serving nation interest as well. You said US welcoming other competition? It is simply marketing/propaganda service. No company want competition, not even a Nation period. Dominance to preserve nation interest is the main objective in every nation. But no one can avoid tit for tat in business.

Fact is in the next 5 years F-35 at least could be the cheapest yet the most advanced single engine in the world. Nothing can come close, not even Rafale/grippen. Once you "control" the global supply chain of F-35 that spread all over the world serving each own nation interest then you control them in a way. If that is not trying to push hegemony then please allow me to rephrase it. Its a dang good business!!

And about ALIS ; well European def planner and their respective country are there for the best interest of their nation. I do believe you are right, they must have seen the pro and con and still getting the F-35. Then again each nation value their pro and con differently to the best of their interest, and we would also be naive if we are saying there are no political pressure from US to get the F-35 program going in a first place right? Sometime it takes layman to see things clearer from different perspective.

I dont say this in oppose to US world dominance in every sector they possibly can because they are half way there now. I think the world need US, history told us how one super power country lead by dictator can do to WWII. As for F-35, even with that ALIS I still think its one of the must have fighter in our inventory.

 

[umigami]

Sorry @Jatosint , lu jarang muncul jafi gw post twit lu disini gak papa ya?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1302591300328325120

 

[Raduga]

there we go ....

Austria hopeful of Indonesia buying 15 Typhoon jet fighters

It was pointed out that buying Austrian Typhoons would violate Law No. 16/2012 on the defense industry.

www.thejakartapost.com

Austria hopeful of Indonesia buying 15 Typhoon jet fighters Novan Iman Santosa The Jakarta Post PREMIUM Jakarta / Mon, September 7, 2020 / 07:21 am New fighter: The first Austrian military fighter jet Eurofighter Typhoon lands at the military airport in the small Styrian village of Zeltweg on July 12, 2007.(Reuters/Leonhard Foeger)

http://alert5.com/2020/09/07/austri...th-indonesia-for-the-sale-of-15-eurofighters/

Austria will enter negotiations with Indonesia for the sale of 15 Eurofighters
Posted on September 7, 2020
Austria’s Defense Minister Klaudia Tanner has officially responded to Indonesia’s request to buy 15 Eurofighters from her country.


Tanner said she had directed the General Staff to prepare for negotiations with Jakarta.
She said the “exit from the Eurofighter system” is the declared goal and the sale is in the best interest of taxpayers.
Two options are available for the sale to proceed. First, the Eurofighter consortium will have to issue a end user certificate to Indonesia and Austria will sell the jets directly to Indonesia. Alternatively, Airbus will buy back the planes, upgrade them and sell them to the South East Asian nation instead.