Indonesia Defence Forum

[Raduga]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1266599820627554304

this is their best effort ??? lol , looks like who killed captain alex level of CGI .

 

[striver44]

wow I don't know that wakaliwood is now under TNPB's paycheck

 

[nufix]

Yup, of course the design will be owned by both. I believe both government and PTDI is not stupid so if government invest majority of the development there will be deal that need to be agreed by both parties. I believe the name of the plane will not be R80 and will be likely RN 80 something. What we just hear is only previous planning from PT RAI about its cooperation scheme with PTDI and we havent heard about the final deal between RAI and DI (government). If the government pay most of the development cost and also PTDI involved in designing, prototyping, and production, it will be clear that R80 will become PTDI own project but there will be some percentage of stake will be owned by RAI on the program.

The deal between RAI and several national airline is just an MOU or LoI (Letter of Intend), not a contract yet.

N250 design look like not competitive enough after the testing was done and it needs redesign to better compete with ATR 42 that means more time needed for redesigning and money for prototyping. Somehow our DI planner change mind and prefer to build N219 starting in 2004 although the money for making a prototype only can be gotten in 2014, 10 years later, through LAPAN budget. By the way, your family member who are ex DI and now working in EADS can explain it better if you try to ask him.

In my opinion, the reason we should support this program is because the one who made the preliminary design are our best designers, that include Ilham Habibie and many of his friends who are previously working in Boeing and Airbus after DI get financial trouble. They also have experience in N 250 and N2130 design. According to what I read, many of them come back because of nationalism and also respect to Habibie, their former boss and the one who build our aerospace industry. Getting RAI and DI together will give much benefit for our young designers in DI for transfer of knowledge and experience. Beside that, I think we need to have second aerospace company which are private owned in order to improve our aerospace industry further.

Can you give a reference to the plan of a shared product ownership? Because in the presentation you gave there, it is said that the cooperation with PTDI is a B2B cooperation with PTDIs with government support limited to facilitating production and not funding or anything close to that. Even in 2017 RAI stated that the foreign investors will bear the cost of the development and not the government and in 2019, RAI stated that the project will be financed through crowdfunding.

Regarding deal, be it LoI or the actual contract, my question is why RAI did that unilaterally. I have never heard anything about PTDI taking part in the LoI signing. If, as you said, PTDI is going to take shared product ownership with RAI, then PTDI should be involved in such important event because it will also guarantee the ROI for PTDI.

I did ask not only my family member but also other ex PTDI engineers. They have quite a big community in northern german cities and bayern and their concern is whether or not to continue using N250. It is fine if they want to improve N250, but why the new design uses "R" designation and not the usual "N"? Designation indicates product ownership the way Su or MiG designation does.

However, I am very supportive of the continuation of this project. The market situation seems quite promising for turboprop small-medium passenger planes. But like I said, RAI should make it clear with their business planning since I have seen a lot of twists in the last 5 years. Also, RAI repeatedly issued statement that the plane will fly by 2018, then 2020, then 202x and so on. That is very bad for investors and customers. They should really hire foreign business planers really since apparently, we lack business planners for aircraft industries. Even PTDI was and is still full of foreign employees even if some people dont like to admit that.

Regarding some ex PTDI employees' motive to comeback, I cannot confirm if nationalism and respect are the true reason why some of them came back, but from my conversations, some of them stated that EADS or Boeing dont really have jobs for them anymore. Many of those who went to work for EADS and Boeing are aircraft structure designers, electronic engineers etc. who are specialized in making new planes and most "new" planes from Boeing and Airbus these days are just revitalization of older generation planes such as A330 Neo or B737 NG. So there is a lack of jobs for them and many did not want to do retraining so that they can join maintenance instead. Some of them went to Embraer, some of them chose to join RAI.

 

[striver44]

Proyek Drone Gantikan Pesawat R80 dan N245 dalam PSN

30 Mei 2020



Drone Elang Hitam (image : Tempo)

Jokowi Hapus Proyek Pesawat R80 Habibie, Fokus Pengembangan Drone

Pemerintah akan menindaklanjuti 89 proyek yang masuk dalam Program Strategis Nasional (PSN) di tahun 2020 hingga 2024. Jumlah proyek diambil berdasarkan usulan sebelumnya yang mencapai 245 PSN.

Menko Perekonomian Airlangga Hartarto menyebut 89 proyek tersebut diharapkan bisa segera terealisasi berdasarkan dukungan dari pihak-pihak terkait. Sejumlah proyek itu diklasifikasikan dapat membantu pertumbuhan ekonomi dalam negeri.

"Dari 245 proyek baru yang memenuhi kriteria sebanyak 89 proyek. Dengan demikian, 156 proyek belum direkomendasikan karena itu masih membutuhkan dukungan kementerian teknis dan perlu kelengkapan dan perlu memenuhi kriteria yang ditetapkan sebagai PSN di mana presiden harapkan ada dampak kepada masyarakat, terhadap pertumbuhan ekonomi dan terkait dengan pengembangan sosial ekonomi," kata Airlangga dalam konferensi persnya, Jumat (29/5).

Menariknya, dari 89 proyek tersebut salah satunya berkaitan dengan pengembangan drone yang secara otomatis menghapus rencana proyek pengembangan pesawat R80 dan N245.

Diketahui, dua proyek tersebut merupakan program pengadaan pesawat dalam negeri. R80 digarap PT Regio Aviasi Industri, milik mantan Presiden BJ Habibie dan putranya, Ilham Akbar Habibie.
Sedangkan N245 digarap PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) bersama Lembaga Penerbangan dan Antariksa Nasional (LAPAN).
"Kemudian terkait dengan 3 proyek drone. Di mana 3 proyek terkait pengembangan drone itu sebagai pengganti proyek yang dikeluarkan antara lain R80 dan N245," jelasnya.
Bukan tanpa sebab, Airlangga beralasan bahwa pengembangan drone dianggap lebih sesuai dengan keadaan saat ini ketimbang realisasi kedua proyek tersebut.
"Sehingga dialihkan menjadi teknologi drone yang dianggap lebih cocok dengan situasi saat sekarang dan pengembangannya sudah dimulai oleh PTDI," jelasnya.
Di sisi lain juga ada proyek seperti pembangunan infrastruktur di sejumlah daerah yang juga masuk dalam 89 PSN.
"Jadi yang 2020-2024, yang proyeknya yang terkait jalan-jembatan, bandara, kawasan industri, termasuk kawasan industri di Brebes, bendungan-irigasi, tanggul laut, program lahan untuk sawah," jelasnya.
Sebelumnya, Presiden Jokowi meminta para menterinya meninjau kembali 245 usulan PSN. Dia ingin mereka bisa menyaring program-program yang dianggap bermanfaat dan memiliki prospek ke depan.
Jokowi mengkhusukan agar memilih proyek yang mampu membantu pemulihan perekonomian. Terlebih pasca munculnya dampak yang ditimbulkan akibat COVID-19.
"Terkait dengan usulan 245 PSN (Program Strategis Nasional baru saya minta untuk betul-betul dilihat di lapangan, dihitung dikalkulasi secara rinci mana yang direkomendasi dan mana yang tidak direkomendasi," kata Jokowi dalam sambutannya di ratas Evaluasi Proyek Strategis Nasional Untuk Pemulihan Ekonomi secara virtual, Jumat (29/5).
(Kumparan)

 

[LtMaverick]

MSSR is not really an active surveillance radar like SMART-L , specifically they are SSR radar , if the enemy turn off their transponder , they would not get tracked in radar screen ....

but based in this german forumer opinion about trs-4d , i think they were enough for a frigate role , since some member here also taught about destroyer procurement rumour , that one is going to have an better sensor all around anyway.
View attachment 636327
"hm, I thought TRS-4D comes to an island like that? Long-range room surveillance radar is currently the standard, the new thing is that modern "short-range" radars actually allow very long ranges today, which is why you can theoretically done it also without SMART-L and co. could get along."

you were right about the thing , the german forumer in marinearchive.de taught me the same thing , it's probably for "redudancy" aspect .
View attachment 636328
"Thanks for the link, as

far as I know, the system should be located in both islands in order to be redundant. For this I find only this picture on the net, in which you can see that TRS-4D antennas are also available in the island:"
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Germanys-F125-Special-Forces-and-Stabilization-Frigates-05119/
"Another contributor to availability is the dual redundancy /" two island ”principle, ensuring that key items are present in at least 2 different locations in case of breakdown or battle damage. The superstructure itself is split into two larger pyramidal deckhouses, as a partial reflection of this principle."

yeah basically just another precautionary motive from them

 

[Jatosint]

Proyek Drone Gantikan Pesawat R80 dan N245 dalam PSN

30 Mei 2020



Drone Elang Hitam (image : Tempo)

Jokowi Hapus Proyek Pesawat R80 Habibie, Fokus Pengembangan Drone

Pemerintah akan menindaklanjuti 89 proyek yang masuk dalam Program Strategis Nasional (PSN) di tahun 2020 hingga 2024. Jumlah proyek diambil berdasarkan usulan sebelumnya yang mencapai 245 PSN.

Menko Perekonomian Airlangga Hartarto menyebut 89 proyek tersebut diharapkan bisa segera terealisasi berdasarkan dukungan dari pihak-pihak terkait. Sejumlah proyek itu diklasifikasikan dapat membantu pertumbuhan ekonomi dalam negeri.

"Dari 245 proyek baru yang memenuhi kriteria sebanyak 89 proyek. Dengan demikian, 156 proyek belum direkomendasikan karena itu masih membutuhkan dukungan kementerian teknis dan perlu kelengkapan dan perlu memenuhi kriteria yang ditetapkan sebagai PSN di mana presiden harapkan ada dampak kepada masyarakat, terhadap pertumbuhan ekonomi dan terkait dengan pengembangan sosial ekonomi," kata Airlangga dalam konferensi persnya, Jumat (29/5).

Menariknya, dari 89 proyek tersebut salah satunya berkaitan dengan pengembangan drone yang secara otomatis menghapus rencana proyek pengembangan pesawat R80 dan N245.

Diketahui, dua proyek tersebut merupakan program pengadaan pesawat dalam negeri. R80 digarap PT Regio Aviasi Industri, milik mantan Presiden BJ Habibie dan putranya, Ilham Akbar Habibie.
Sedangkan N245 digarap PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) bersama Lembaga Penerbangan dan Antariksa Nasional (LAPAN).
"Kemudian terkait dengan 3 proyek drone. Di mana 3 proyek terkait pengembangan drone itu sebagai pengganti proyek yang dikeluarkan antara lain R80 dan N245," jelasnya.
Bukan tanpa sebab, Airlangga beralasan bahwa pengembangan drone dianggap lebih sesuai dengan keadaan saat ini ketimbang realisasi kedua proyek tersebut.
"Sehingga dialihkan menjadi teknologi drone yang dianggap lebih cocok dengan situasi saat sekarang dan pengembangannya sudah dimulai oleh PTDI," jelasnya.
Di sisi lain juga ada proyek seperti pembangunan infrastruktur di sejumlah daerah yang juga masuk dalam 89 PSN.
"Jadi yang 2020-2024, yang proyeknya yang terkait jalan-jembatan, bandara, kawasan industri, termasuk kawasan industri di Brebes, bendungan-irigasi, tanggul laut, program lahan untuk sawah," jelasnya.
Sebelumnya, Presiden Jokowi meminta para menterinya meninjau kembali 245 usulan PSN. Dia ingin mereka bisa menyaring program-program yang dianggap bermanfaat dan memiliki prospek ke depan.
Jokowi mengkhusukan agar memilih proyek yang mampu membantu pemulihan perekonomian. Terlebih pasca munculnya dampak yang ditimbulkan akibat COVID-19.
"Terkait dengan usulan 245 PSN (Program Strategis Nasional baru saya minta untuk betul-betul dilihat di lapangan, dihitung dikalkulasi secara rinci mana yang direkomendasi dan mana yang tidak direkomendasi," kata Jokowi dalam sambutannya di ratas Evaluasi Proyek Strategis Nasional Untuk Pemulihan Ekonomi secara virtual, Jumat (29/5).
(Kumparan)

He said '3 drones programs'. Does anyone know what are the other two drones besides black eagle?

====================================================================

https://twitter.com/x/status/1266663530264027136

 

[striver44]

He said '3 drones programs'. Does anyone know what are the other two drones besides black eagle?

====================================================================

https://twitter.com/x/status/1266663530264027136

wulung and alap-alap maybe

 

[LtMaverick]

So I decide to find any Procurement from Indonesia on Defense.gov here some of early result i found, still research more stuff on it (correct me if i double post some pictures but on a different page), if y'all wanted to add up or give some explaination of what things about the procurement, feel free

Spoiler: Defense.gov Indonesia Procurement

Modernized ACES II Electronic Sequencer for the Ejection Seat (Probably for F-16 EMLU?)

AMRAAM Production (Program Obsolences? what does it mean?)

AMRAAM ToT? or New Modification for the Existing Product

F-100-PW Series (Refurbished -220E Engine for the F-16 EMLU?)

2 Different ScanEagle articles (So is it Modification from previous 6 one or add up in total to 14 unit?)

Apache Technical Lifecycle and Support Services and TNI AD/Army Technical Support Services (Anyone care to explain both?)

Sidewinder Production

Javelin Lifecycle Support Services and Unspecified Article(Maintenance Purpose or something? and it could be another production for Javelin?)

LANTIRN/SNIPER/IRST Articles
(It has been talked earlier but can anyone explain, Does it mean more Sniper Procurement for Indonesia and also did this article covered whole production of that 3 things for different country? i.e: Indonesia bought Sniper Pod Only but it's combined with Belgium who bought LANTIRN and IRST)

CAD/PAD For Ejection Seat (Might be for the F-16 EMLU)

Apache Support Services Production (Is It Production For Spareparts?)

 

[Nike]

Norway is in process to replace their Leopard 2A4 NO with new MBT, i am in favor to acquire such used articles.

 

[LtMaverick]

So I decide to find any Procurement from Indonesia on Defense.gov here some of early result i found, still research more stuff on it (correct me if i double post some pictures but on a different page), if y'all wanted to add up or give some explaination of what things about the procurement, feel free

Spoiler: Defense.gov Indonesia Procurement

View attachment 636672
Modernized ACES II Electronic Sequencer for the Ejection Seat (Probably for F-16 EMLU?)

View attachment 636675 View attachment 636676 View attachment 636695 View attachment 636703
AMRAAM Production (Program Obsolences? what does it mean?)

View attachment 636705
AMRAAM ToT? or New Modification for the Existing Product

View attachment 636678
F-100-PW Series (Refurbished -220E Engine for the F-16 EMLU?)

View attachment 636681 View attachment 636682
2 Different ScanEagle articles (So is it Modification from previous 6 one or add up in total to 14 unit?)

View attachment 636677 View attachment 636683 View attachment 636704
Apache Technical Lifecycle and Support Services and TNI AD/Army Technical Support Services (Anyone care to explain both?)

View attachment 636684 View attachment 636687
Sidewinder Production

View attachment 636685 View attachment 636694
Javelin Lifecycle Support Services and Unspecified Article(Maintenance Purpose or something? and it could be another production for Javelin?)

View attachment 636680
LANTIRN/SNIPER/IRST Articles
(It has been talked earlier but can anyone explain, Does it mean more Sniper Procurement for Indonesia and also did this article covered whole production of that 3 things for different country? i.e: Indonesia bought Sniper Pod Only but it's combined with Belgium who bought LANTIRN and IRST)

View attachment 636696
CAD/PAD For Ejection Seat (Might be for the F-16 EMLU)

View attachment 636697
Apache Support Services Production (Is It Production For Spareparts?)

Part 2

Spoiler: Defense.gov Indonesia Procurement Pt.2

C4ISR (Might Be Training or Something? if someone wants to explain what happened)

F-100-PW series Proficiency Training for Ground Crew

 

[GraveDigger388]

Oh, almost two thousand pages in this thread

 

[Indos]

He said '3 drones programs'. Does anyone know what are the other two drones besides black eagle?

====================================================================

https://twitter.com/x/status/1266663530264027136

3 drone related program maybe, so the other two program maybe relates to the development of subsystem of Black Eagle UAV like flight control and mission system (PT LEN), and SAR Radar (Lapan).

Oh, almost two thousand pages in this thread

I still remember when the old members celebrate the moment we reach 1000 pages some years ago

 

[Indos]

Ini jdi konflik suku/etnis.

What western countries that likely will help easiky to make indigenous engine? Are brits or american (like generaln eletric sweden and turk havr license GE engine), likely we can first on turbojet for missile as engine for missile not need to be very2 good (missile fly once and destroyed)
What if ukraine made engine? Turks use it sucesefuy in their drone

Both American and British IMO. Currently it is much easier for employer to get employee through online platform, there is head hunting companies as well to get targeted people, and with the popularity of Linkedin I think it will not be to difficult to do the research about the potential people. Indian Muslim participating with their cruise missile program can also be a viable option since due to the brotherhood feeling maybe they will be more open to reveal the secret and join the Indonesian turbo jet engine program. Ukraine is the last resort if we cannot attract talent from Western countries and USA. If we just rely on our engineers, it can be quite long to do the catch up. PTDI in the N 250 program also use some Westerners while after 2000 they use all locals.

Yup, the first start should be engine program for our own cruise missile program.

PTDI still has office in Seatle, USA. We can use it for recruitment process.

 

[striver44]

Leopard 2PL in Polish Army Service. it's interesting that they used a similar cut design with us for their AMAP armor.
without the additional armor for the skirt. (something we could do for the other half of our Leo 2A4 fleet)

and oh i forgot to mention i like the camo, I think better than ours.

 

[Being-Art]

Leopard 2PL in Polish Army Service. it's interesting that they used a similar cut design with us for their AMAP armor.
without the additional armor for the skirt. (something we could do for the other half of our Leo 2A4 fleet)

and oh i forgot to mention i like the camo, I think better than ours.[emoji23]

yea, but Polish dislike it, so they prefer to buy K2 Black Panther from South Korea with a license as K2PL "Wilk" (sorry Out of Topic), although the upgrade process of Leo 2A4 to Leo 2PL is still ongoing