Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

From ToT point of view, I am with you that we never received technologically benefit from previous procurement. My mind is always on, whatever the best for Indonesia. The challenge herewith is F5 replacement should be conducted in a short moment since F-5 E/F Tiger II last flight on 28 April 2016. Almost 4 years ago. In addition, IAF eager to boost air force capabilities clearly seen from sizing up the class of its fighter from F5 to Su35, to minimize more the threat, from lighter fighter to heavyweight fighter. This heavy class has fewer options in its class (Rafale/Typhoon/Eagle/F-35/Super Hornet). Our air force prefers Su35 on the first shopping list spree, regardless of its maintenance cost. Then capabilities will overcome economically point of view. But ToT point of view here I believe had a significant factor why Su35 procurement still yet done since contract worth of US$ 1,14 miliar (Rp 15,57 triliun) signed on 14 Februari 2018. Latest we must obey the law, Law Number 16 of 2012 concerning the Defense Industry. In article 43 paragraph 5 letter e the Law explains, every procurement of Defense and Security Equipment Tools (Alpalhankam) from abroad must be included with the purchase, local content and a minimum offset of 85 percent where the local content and / or offset is at least 35 percent.

https://nasional.tempo.co/read/7456...gotot-tot-pembelian-sukhoi-su-35/full&view=ok

https://www.cnnindonesia.com/nasional/20170823151837-20-236724/mengintip-jeroan-sukhoi-su-35

https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/news/...t-pembelian-11-jet-sukhoi-tak-kunjung-selesai

My best bet here is, Su35 still come after this. But Russia will give something like ToT arrangements perhaps in any model or any kind of ToT, to fulfill our law mandate.

That's not true actually, the Air Force's first pick was the Viper as they foubd it easier to work with and maintain. The "actual" wish list also included the Strike Eagle and SHornet as alternatives as they share certain components. The pick for the Su-35 is very much a "political" one.

If the Air Force really wanted more Flankers they'd have asked for the Su-30SM over the Su-35. Our current Flanker fleet does not share parts with the Su-35

 

[mejikuhibiu]

Indonesia believes that Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act(CAATSA) was had inconsistencies, due to the case of India S-400 weapon procurement and strong signal by US Secretary of Defense James Mattis signaling to exempt Indonesia, Vietnam and India from CAATSA sanctions, along with Senate and House of Representatives Armed Forces Committee from Oklahoma, senator Jim Inhofe to put in Indonesia exempt in National Defense Authorization Act 2019. Procurement of SU35 held long before CAATSA, and the key factor here is the consideration that US needs Indonesia as a strategic partner of US geopolitics nowadays. In addition as a balancing counteract, Indonesia strongly willing to procure some US military equipment. This reason is very clear indeed.

So welcome SU35. (And) Welcome F16 viper. Both of you have the same Indonesia bread from now. Win-Win-Win. Everybody is happy.

As long we buy stuff much more from US than Russia in this case f16v. Its doesnt matter to them.. That why we need to buy huge number of f16v..to balance it.. if we buy much more from russia we will get CAATSA from U.S.. trump is only want surplus in all trade.. its economic matter now.

 

[san.geuk]

What bugging me, where is the idea to buy su35 come from?, with no commonality with su27/30, no ToT, not a favorite from the user, TNI AU prefer Falcon or even back years ago some rumors they interested in eurothypoon,
The mindef can use these drawbacks againts the deal, since the procurement againts the law, no significant beneficial for our defence others than some subjective claims Made by fanboys,
If the USA can't dictate us so does the Russian can't dictate us also, we should chose the most beneficial for our country

 

[Chaplin009x]

https://m.merdeka.com/peristiwa/dirayu-as-tni-au-tak-akan-berpaling-dari-sukhoi-su-35.html
clarify, who's called a Russian fanboy

 

[Kansel]

Indonesia 'Paksa' Cina Ajari Bikin Roket
Reporter:
Zacharias Wuragil
Editor:
Zacharias Wuragil
Minggu, 23 Februari 2020 08:41 WIB

roket di tanah air. Sebuah kesepakatan sudah terjalin dan diteken pada akhir tahun lalu berupa transer teknologi yang diberikan Cina atas kompensasi izin perairan yang diberikan pemerintah Indonesia.

Kepala Pusat Teknologi Roket di Lembaga Penerbangan dan Antariksa Nasional (Lapan), Sutrisno, pada Jumat 21 Februari 2020. Saat itu Sutrisno baru saja menerima kunjungan Menteri Ristek Bambang Brodjonegoro dan jajaran pimpinan Lapan di kantornya di Rumpin, Kabupaten Bogor.

Sutrisno menerangkan, pemerintah Cina butuh masuk perairan Indonesia untuk kepentingan pelacakan trayek satelitnya. Sempat menawarkan kompensasi teknologi lain, Sutrisno mengungkapkan kalau Beijing akhirnya setuju memenuhi permintaan transfer teknologi roket selama lima tahun ke depan.

“Jadi ini bukan beli lisensi ya, tapi transfer teknologi lewat kerja sama antar negara,” katanya sambil menjelaskan pembelian lisensi bisa sangat mahal dan belum tentu ada negara yang bersedia untuk teknologi roket.

Peluncuran roket Cina, Long March-5 Y2, di Wenchang, Hainan, Cina, 2 Juli 2017. (REUTERS)

Adapun kerja sama transfer teknologi, dijelaskannya, berupa pemberian pelatihan, pengadaan material dan peralatan, melakukan desain manufaktur. Termasuk uji di bawah supervisi ahli roket Cina yang dilakukan di negeri itu maupun di Indonesia.

Menurut Sutrsino, kerja sama akan sangat bermanfaat bagi peneliti roket Indonesia yang disebutnya masih mengembangkan teknologi asal 1960-an. Indonesia sangat membutuhkan kerja sama atau tranfer teknologi dari negara lain yang selama ini tidak pernah didapat untuk pengembangan roket.

Sebagai ilustrasi, dia membandingkan, kemampuan roket diameter 450 mm milik Lapan yang masih berdaya jangkau kurang dari 100 kilometer. Sementara Cina janji mengajari membuat roket baru yang dua tingkat dengan diameter yang sama dan mampu terbang sampai 200 kilometer ke batas atmosfer.

Menristek Bambang Brodjonegoro saat berkunjung dan melihat roket RX 450 di Pusat Teknologi Roket, Lembaga Penerbangan dan Antariksa Nasional, di Rumpin, Kabupaten Bogor, Jumat 21 Februari 2020. TEMPO/WURAGIL.

“Yang roket Cina itu untuk meng-improve roket 450 kita...dan akan ada pengalaman dan hal baru. serta memantapkan apa yang sudah kita lakukan selama ini,” kata Sutrisno.

Roket berdaya jangkau 200 kilometer disebutnya bisa digunakan sebagai roket sonda untuk mempelajari karakter di lapisan atmosfer. Harapannya kemampuan nanti bisa dikembangkan untuk roket sonda 300 kilometer dan seterusnya hingga bisa membuat roket peluncur satelit sesuai roadmap teknologi roket yang sudah dibuat tiga tahun lalu untuk 25 tahun ke depan.


https://tekno.tempo.co/read/1311007/indonesia-paksa-cina-ajari-bikin-roket

I'm more into Su-34,Shornet or Rafales rather than Su 35, maritime strike fighter is needed.

 

[umigami]

Sukhoi deal hangs in balance amid US pressure
Marchio Irfan Gorbiano (The Jakarta Post)
Jakarta / Wed, February 26 2020 / 12:14 am

​

In February 2018, Indonesia and Russia signed a US$1.14 billion purchase contract for 11 Sukhoi jet fighters. It has been two years since the deal was made under then-defense minister Ryamizard Ryacudu and still no shipments have arrived from Moscow.

The billion-dollar deal is reportedly in limbo, with Moscow and analysts pointing to pressures from the United States as the primary reason why Jakarta is dragging its feet in finalizing the purchase.

The State Palace stopped short of confirming the claim, but admitted that a non-technical issue had hampered the process.

Presidential Chief of Staff Moeldoko said the government was still considering a number of issues regarding the deal. "Please wait as there are other factors [to be considered]. It is not just business-to-business, but there are other factors also," he told reporters on Tuesday.

When asked if US lobbying and the fact that President Joko "Jokowi" Widodo was slated to meet with his US counterpart, Donald Trump, next month were part of the considerations, Moeldoko said, "Other factors could be many things."

Other officials, including Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto, have been equally evasive when asked about details of the planned Sukhoi purchase.

Prabowo has declined to comment on the matter, saying the future of the deal would be disclosed to the public at a later date.

Last week, the minister met with Coordinating Political, Legal and Security Affairs Minister Mahfud MD and Coordinating Maritime Affairs and Investment Minister Luhut Pandjaitan to discuss the Sukhoi deal but none of the officials were willing to disclose the result of their discussions.

“We discussed potential territorial threats [...]. The others are secret, including arms purchases from other countries,” Mahfud said on Monday when asked about the meeting.

Indonesian Air Force spokesperson Fajar Adrianto told The Jakarta Post on Monday that whether or not the country would buy the Russian jet fighters was up to the defense minister. The minister's spokesman, Dahnil Simanjuntak, however, was quoted by detik.com as saying that the final decision lay with the President.

The US expressed its disappointment over the initial procurement in 2018. Washington has threatened countries before with its Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which can punish US partners for buying Russian-made military equipment, including aircraft.

However, Indonesia was spared from the CAATSA sanction threats when it purchased a plane last year as the US Congress, backed by former US secretary of defense Jim Mattis, gave the country a waiver. Experts, however, believe that the waiver will require Indonesia to reduce its reliance on Russian arms.
.....

Continue to Article

 

[Gaman]

What bugging me, where is the idea to buy su35 come from?, with no commonality with su27/30, no ToT, not a favorite from the user, TNI AU prefer Falcon or even back years ago some rumors they interested in eurothypoon,
The mindef can use these drawbacks againts the deal, since the procurement againts the law, no significant beneficial for our defence others than some subjective claims Made by fanboys,
If the USA can't dictate us so does the Russian can't dictate us also, we should chose the most beneficial for our country

... Our air force prefers Su35 on the first shopping list spree, regardless of its maintenance cost...

This is what I mean with IAF first list shopping in mind. Bugging my mind too. Political ? not quite strong enough driving in persistent to Su35. Internally and technically (of defense strategic) issue of IAF preferences itself is the main factor. But as we are at the external side, there is still a grey area here which leads us to conclude this as political as a reasonable factor. No one out of us here has exactly know whats going on here.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

This is what I mean with IAF first list shopping in mind. Bugging my mind too. Political ? not quite strong enough driving in persistent to Su35. Internally and technically (of defense strategic) issue of IAF itself is main factor.

This is more philosophical than political. Lots of people still remember the embargo. This cause people in the higher ups to never relied from a single source.

No matter what happens there's need to be a squadron or 2 that are able to fly when embargo hit.

 

[Nike]

KFX surely cant be our answer for "embargoes" problem, as long as the engines we are used and other sub components is come from foreign sources there is always the risk. Jakarta need to invest more on our defense sector and aviation industry. Need a to made PT DI into something like embraer or Canadian bombardier with their all local contractor to support such industry

 

[MacanJawa]

This is more philosophical than political. Lots of people still remember the embargo. This cause people in the higher ups to never relied from a single source.

No matter what happens there's need to be a squadron or 2 that are able to fly when embargo hit.

I agree, its like sidearms, extremely useful when your primary jammed

 

[Jatosint]

Sukhoi deal hangs in balance amid US pressure
Marchio Irfan Gorbiano (The Jakarta Post)
Jakarta / Wed, February 26 2020 / 12:14 am

​

In February 2018, Indonesia and Russia signed a US$1.14 billion purchase contract for 11 Sukhoi jet fighters. It has been two years since the deal was made under then-defense minister Ryamizard Ryacudu and still no shipments have arrived from Moscow.

The billion-dollar deal is reportedly in limbo, with Moscow and analysts pointing to pressures from the United States as the primary reason why Jakarta is dragging its feet in finalizing the purchase.

The State Palace stopped short of confirming the claim, but admitted that a non-technical issue had hampered the process.

Presidential Chief of Staff Moeldoko said the government was still considering a number of issues regarding the deal. "Please wait as there are other factors [to be considered]. It is not just business-to-business, but there are other factors also," he told reporters on Tuesday.

When asked if US lobbying and the fact that President Joko "Jokowi" Widodo was slated to meet with his US counterpart, Donald Trump, next month were part of the considerations, Moeldoko said, "Other factors could be many things."

Other officials, including Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto, have been equally evasive when asked about details of the planned Sukhoi purchase.

Prabowo has declined to comment on the matter, saying the future of the deal would be disclosed to the public at a later date.

Last week, the minister met with Coordinating Political, Legal and Security Affairs Minister Mahfud MD and Coordinating Maritime Affairs and Investment Minister Luhut Pandjaitan to discuss the Sukhoi deal but none of the officials were willing to disclose the result of their discussions.

“We discussed potential territorial threats [...]. The others are secret, including arms purchases from other countries,” Mahfud said on Monday when asked about the meeting.

Indonesian Air Force spokesperson Fajar Adrianto told The Jakarta Post on Monday that whether or not the country would buy the Russian jet fighters was up to the defense minister. The minister's spokesman, Dahnil Simanjuntak, however, was quoted by detik.com as saying that the final decision lay with the President.

The US expressed its disappointment over the initial procurement in 2018. Washington has threatened countries before with its Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA), which can punish US partners for buying Russian-made military equipment, including aircraft.

However, Indonesia was spared from the CAATSA sanction threats when it purchased a plane last year as the US Congress, backed by former US secretary of defense Jim Mattis, gave the country a waiver. Experts, however, believe that the waiver will require Indonesia to reduce its reliance on Russian arms.
.....

Continue to Article

It is F/A-18's silhouette, not Su-27/30
It is also definitely not Hawk's silhouette, it looks like Nanchang Q-5

 

[Gaman]

This is more philosophical than political. Lots of people still remember the embargo. This cause people in the higher ups to never relied from a single source.
No matter what happens there's need to be a squadron or 2 that are able to fly when embargo hit.

I agree, its like sidearms, extremely useful when your primary jammed

Yup. Correct. Embargoes are one thing in main consideration. As a useful choice from the opposite side. So let's play on the same field with both of them in the rivalry.

 

[V3NOM12]

All of this maybe came from thingking that "do not put all your egg in one basket" so we diversify our source of alutsista.
But instead of continuing Su-27/30 we choose to get Su-35 that has no commonality with Su-27/30 (or maybe litle). Or can we just exchanged our Su-27/30 to become all Su-35? Just like Russia offer to Malaysia? Need more money of course

 

[Ruhnama]

Indonesia believes that Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act(CAATSA) was had inconsistencies, due to the case of India S-400 weapon procurement and strong signal by US Secretary of Defense James Mattis signaling to exempt Indonesia, Vietnam and India from CAATSA sanctions, along with Senate and House of Representatives Armed Forces Committee from Oklahoma, senator Jim Inhofe to put in Indonesia exempt in National Defense Authorization Act 2019. Procurement of SU35 held long before CAATSA, and the key factor here is the consideration that US needs Indonesia as a strategic partner of US geopolitics nowadays. In addition as a balancing counteract, Indonesia strongly willing to procure some US military equipment. This reason is very clear indeed.

So welcome SU35. (And) Welcome F16 viper. Both of you have the same Indonesia bread from now. Win-Win-Win. Everybody is happy.

At least we are in better condition than our turkish arkadas they expelled from f35 (but with recent event turkish now agaon

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will it affect our cooperation with turkey considering the situation in libya ??

Ah.. so the malaysia have very strength relation with turkey (kl summit etc, tfx plan) and we join UAE front? After that malaysia and indonesia have skirmish supported by a county far away in mid east?

Likely we dont care abt mid east, libya haftar, afrin, kurd, qatar,

UAE lbh berfulus tpi turki lbh joss teknonya (selama saya main di forum mrk)

 

[Nike]

At least we are in better condition than our turkish arkadas they expelled from f35 (but with recent event turkish now agaon

Ah.. so the malaysia have very strength relation with turkey (kl summit etc, tfx plan) and we join UAE front? After that malaysia and indonesia have skirmish supported by a county far away in mid east?

Likely we dont care abt mid east, libya haftar, afrin, kurd, qatar,

UAE lbh berfulus tpi turki lbh joss teknonya (selama saya main di forum mrk)

Turkish base tech is not much different from us, considering they are inheritor of ottoman and got Independence since the end of WW I, their achievement in technology is not much, even South Korean is more matured. Talking about their close relationship with Germany and NATO member in the past....