Indonesia Defence Forum

[Nike]

Battalion 9 and Battalion 5 Indonesian Marine Corps, doing long March in combat gear as part of daily exercises. Lampung, Yesterday, 17 February 2015. In a day, can travel at much around 30 km with 30 kg's loads of equipment, logistic and gear.

 

[initial_d]

What is the current status of KFX/IFX?? For me, if the spesification of KFX/IFX are below F 35, we should canceled it instead, and invest on buying true gen 5 fighter like pakfa, thats just my oppinion though

 

[Nike]

What is the current status of KFX/IFX?? For me, if the spesification of KFX/IFX are below F 35, we should canceled it instead, and invest on buying true gen 5 fighter like pakfa, thats just my oppinion though

what made a fighter is fifth gen or not? their stealthy characteristic? their weapon suite? their electronic counter measure?

 

[initial_d]

what made a fighter is fifth gen or not? their stealthy characteristic? their weapon suite? their electronic counter measure?

I think the combination of all, participating on KFX would be crucial and benefitting indonesia if indonesia planning on developing 6th gen fighter, if not, i am not sure the true bennefit on joining the korean KFX

 

[Nike]

I think the combination of all, participating on KFX would be crucial and benefitting indonesia if indonesia planning on developing 6th gen fighter, if not, i am not sure the true bennefit on joining the korean KFX

the benefit to join KFX programme

1. to get know how about how to designing and building a modern fighter
2. to get a proper learning on how to running and managing an ambitious project such as KFX/IFX project
3. KFX itself not an inferior fighter at all, thus their capability will be put between the most modern of F-16 block 52 ++ and F-35 fighter who had been known to have excellent electronic warfare suit and ECM capability, combining them with excellent maneuverable design
4. to get a closer relationship with South Korea, and we all know South Korea has a robust defense industry and not to mention they have an excellent technological engineering capability capable to match a much larger and well established defense industry like US and Russia
5. South Korea is not a large Nation, and their National interest is doesn't clash with us at all. And the most important thing is they can't dictate what Indonesia must to do in this project. When you suggest us to bought Pak-Fa, i don't thing the Russian will gladly share their know how about building Pak-Fa to Indonesian side they must be want to dictate us to bought their armament and platforms.


One thing, how you can build Sixth gen fighter even you can't build a decent fighter before? please to enlighten me

 

[initial_d]

Tha

the benefit to join KFX programme

1. to get know how about how to designing and building a modern fighter
2. to get a proper learning on how to running and managing an ambitious project such as KFX/IFX project
3. KFX itself not an inferior fighter at all, thus their capability will be put between the most modern of F-16 block 52 ++ and F-35 fighter who had been known to have excellent electronic warfare suit and ECM capability, combining them with excellent maneuverable design
4. to get a closer relationship with South Korea, and we all know South Korea has a robust defense industry and not to mention they have an excellent technological engineering capability capable to match a much larger and well established defense industry like US and Russia
5. South Korea is not a large Nation, and their National interest is doesn't clash with us at all. And the most important thing is they can't dictate what Indonesia must to do in this project. When you suggest us to bought Pak-Fa, i don't thing the Russian will gladly share their know how about building Pak-Fa to Indonesian side they must be want to dictate us to bought their armament and platforms.


One thing, how you can build Sixth gen fighter even you can't build a decent fighter before? please to enlighten me

thats why i ask, do indonesia really need co developping 5th gen fighter that at the time KFX Roll out, american will release its 6th gen fighter, and have to compete with mature russia and china 5th gen fighter, its obvious that indonesia will never developed its own fighter....better straight buying it from america, russia or china, its more feassible to developed new generation medium helicopter and cargo plane or ucav rather than a fighter

 

[Indos]

@initial_d

Making our own platform (design/air frame) means we can develop and upgrade it into what ever we like (whether we make it ourselves or just buy it (avionics/engine) from Russia/France, etc that can give us chances to get TOT of turbofan, radar, etc ). It also will make more room for other defense industries beside PT DI, like PT LEN and others to develop and grow by benefiting from this project, since we do have freedom in our own version based on the previous agreement (thats why the code name is IFX). Beside that our engineers need R&D process so badly to improve their knowledge that can be applied not only in fighter development. One of the lacking of our defense industry is that their R&D program which is so small compare to major western countries.

By seeing your post, it seems to me that you have some doubt about your own people my friend. The thing that matter here is that some people believe that we can be on par with them in the future thus they have positive point of view about their own nation, and in other hand some people lack confident whether their nation can be something in the future. For me, F-35 hasnt yet been a proven jet fighter, similar like Pakfa. And it is to soon to see whether 6 gen fighter is better than 5 gen since it is unmanned one, the change that I think is too drastic.

I like to see Habibie philosophy on building plane which is to start directly from the most advance and if not because of IMF condition to us, we have already had a Boeing 737 competitor (N 2130) and ATR 72 rival (N-250) at 10-11 years ago (2004).

 

[initial_d]

@initial_d

Making our own platform (design/air frame) means we can develop and upgrade it into what ever we like (whether we make it ourselves or just buy it (avionics/engine) from Russia/France, etc). It also will make more room for other defense industries beside PT DI, like PT LEN and others to develop and grow by benefiting from this project, since we do have freedom in our own version based on the previous agreement (thats why the code name is IFX). Beside that our engineers need R&D process so badly to improve their knowledge that can be applied not only in fighter development. One of the lacking of our defense industry is that their R&D program which is so small compare to major western countries.

By seeing your post, it seems to me that you have some doubt about your own people my friend. The thing that matter here is that some people believe that we can be on par with them in the future thus they have positive point of view about their own nation, and in other hand some people lack confident whether their nation can be something in the future. For me, F-35 hasnt yet been a proven jet fighter, similar like Pakfa. And it is to soon to see whether 6 gen fighter is better than 5 gen since it is unmanned one, the change that I think is too drastic.

I like to see Habibie philosophy on building plane which is to start directly from the most advance and if not because of IMF condition to us, we have already had a Boeing 737 competitor (N 2130) and ATR 72 rival (N-250) in 2004.

Dont get me wrong, i do believe in the human resource of our nation, the industial, finance and political will of our country that i doubt. I just dont want the ifx will be like taiwanese ching kuo jet fighter that twice expensive but least capability, thr same happen with indian tejas..... i am just afraid the ifx are only became mercu suar project (i dont know the english word for it) among asean country, especially toward malaysia. In 2024 the price of f35 and pakfa surely will cheaper, i am afraid the ifx will double the price of those plane if not triple ( just like the jap f 2 that have 3 times price tag than f 16 and even more expensive than f 15) with less capability.....

 

[katarabhumi]

@initial_d

Kita tidak akan pernah masuk hitungan sampai kita bisa buat alutsista paling canggih dengan tangan sendiri.

Keep buying and suppose one day the maker embargoing us (again) or refuse to sell for some bogus reason, what can we do? ... way too late to start the fighter program when it happen bro. Mereka sudah generasi 6 kita generasi 1 aja boro2.

Knowing how to make fighter means we can improve it, develop it further, tailoring it to suit our needs and we have the advantage of secrecy since we have our own recipe.

Our goal right now is to be able to make our own fighter (of whatever gen) first, not to challenge the superpowers and have a race with them. Not today, not in a near future.

Superpowers will always sell a lesser version and save the best for themselves. If we still depending on buying, we can only have 6th gen when US or Russia or China already have 7th or even 8th gen, especially when we are not allied with them. But if we know how to make by ourselves, -with a strong will and hardwork- we can build our own on par with them.

I know it is not easy but it is not impossible either. Don't look at failed example but look at the successful ones. Have faith.

 

[initial_d]

@initial_d

Kita tidak akan pernah masuk hitungan sampai kita bisa buat alutsista paling canggih dengan tangan sendiri.

Keep buying and suppose one day the maker embargoing us (again) or refuse to sell for some bogus reason, what can we do? ... way too late to start the fighter program when it happen bro. Mereka sudah generasi 6 kita generasi 1 aja boro2.

Knowing how to make fighter means we can improve it, develop it further, tailoring it to suit our needs and we have the advantage of secrecy since we have our own recipe.

Our goal right now is to be able to make our own fighter (of whatever gen) first, not to challenge the superpowers and have a race with them. Not today, not in a near future.

Superpowers will always sell a lesser version and save the best for themselves. If we still depending on buying, we can only have 6th gen when US or Russia or China already have 7th or even 8th gen, especially when we are not allied with them. But if we know how to make by ourselves, -with a strong will and hardwork- we can build our own on par with them.

I know it is not easy but it is not impossible either. Don't look at failed example but look at the successful ones. Have faith.

It's nice theres a lot of people have positive thinking toward KFX/IFX, i hope i could be among those people too....i think we indonesian have to see and wait for 10 to 15 years or so, perhaps even more to see where this project will lead us to. For the moment i just rest my case on this one.

 

[Indos]

@initial_d

Kita tidak akan pernah masuk hitungan sampai kita bisa buat alutsista paling canggih dengan tangan sendiri.

Keep buying and suppose one day the maker embargoing us (again) or refuse to sell for some bogus reason, what can we do? ... way too late to start the fighter program when it happen bro. Mereka sudah generasi 6 kita generasi 1 aja boro2.

Knowing how to make fighter means we can improve it, develop it further, tailoring it to suit our needs and we have the advantage of secrecy since we have our own recipe.

Our goal right now is to be able to make our own fighter (of whatever gen) first, not to challenge the superpowers and have a race with them. Not today, not in a near future.

Superpowers will always sell a lesser version and save the best for themselves. If we still depending on buying, we can only have 6th gen when US or Russia or China already have 7th or even 8th gen, especially when we are not allied with them. But if we know how to make by ourselves, -with a strong will and hardwork- we can build our own on par with them.

I know it is not easy but it is not impossible either. Don't look at failed example but look at the successful ones. Have faith.

The air frame and design (maneuverability + Stealth) has the potency to be not less that F-22 or F-35. Engine/avionics/missile can be taken from many vendors and we can get good TOT from that (or even joint production) if the tender process is good. It is a good thing that we have signed strategic defense agreement with Russia and Japanese that allow TOT to happen to our defense industries. So we have many choices. Dont forget this plane is designed to fly together with a group of drone that is controlled by the pilot, so it is already a revolutionary jet fighter. In my opinion, 6 gen fighter is something that is not a USA only who can define it, maybe USA choose the wrong way, who knows...? and beside that the development is so premature, and that robotic plane can have the potential to be hacked.

This project can also improve and boost our nation mentality. Every revolutionary act is first taken from mentality changing, similar like the way we can beat Dutch long time ago (militarily + diplomacy). It also boost the spirit of young people like us to be the best in our own specialty and field. Together with God we should be braver

 

[Nike]

Tha
thats why i ask, do indonesia really need co developping 5th gen fighter that at the time KFX Roll out, american will release its 6th gen fighter, and have to compete with mature russia and china 5th gen fighter, its obvious that indonesia will never developed its own fighter....better straight buying it from america, russia or china, its more feassible to developed new generation medium helicopter and cargo plane or ucav rather than a fighter

Rather than just buying off the shelf like you suggested, i thing it will not fit Indonesian grand strategic for long term. After KFX been finished in near future, Indonesia will develop their own fighter design. That's why in parallel with KFX project we had envisioned about IFX thus we can made our own version of KFX. Indonesia as a big country with large economy and bright future surely has a potential need to develop Indigenous fighters as our late President Yudhoyono has said, Indonesia must out perform what Armed forces around us had. In theory, Indonesia need around 11 Squadron of fighter to protect our boundaries as has been mandated by MEF programme and 11 squadron is comprised of around 176 fighter. And that's just the most Minimum requirement we need to protect our vast Air space.

And the higher ups in Air Force has stated to made a credible forces in which capable to perform to protecting our Air Space sufficiently and at the same time capable to projecting our power in and around our region to protect our National Interest at least we need around twice more larger than what had been stated in MEF and that's around 22 Squadron of high performance fighter. And we need a credible air defense industries to maintain and sustain such a forces, and if we just continuing to bought off the shelf technologies we will be stuck like what we had today forever. Just look what Pakistan and China doing, they can maintain large Air Force is because they had innovated and capable to sustaining their Air defense industries and made their own design and chain supply for the most critical items needed to maintain an Air force.

Dont get me wrong, i do believe in the human resource of our nation, the industial, finance and political will of our country that i doubt. I just dont want the ifx will be like taiwanese ching kuo jet fighter that twice expensive but least capability, thr same happen with indian tejas..... i am just afraid the ifx are only became mercu suar project (i dont know the english word for it) among asean country, especially toward malaysia. In 2024 the price of f35 and pakfa surely will cheaper, i am afraid the ifx will double the price of those plane if not triple ( just like the jap f 2 that have 3 times price tag than f 16 and even more expensive than f 15) with less capability.....

You made a wrong assumption about Taiwan and Japanese case. Ching Kuo is at her inception was one of the best fighter in the region, on par with the latest version of F-16 US Air Force had with advanced avionic and ECM system. But China is capable to made their own and innovating the design of Flanker into J-11 with so many variants and made Ching Kuo deemed obsolete by today standard. F-2 fighter of Japanese is one of the best fighter more capable than the basic version of Japanese F-15J, the first of this kind in the world to fielding AESA radar system and capable to launching hypersonic AShM ( @Nihonjin1051 , please educate my friend here about F-2 fighter) a feat even the America need almost a decade to follow. And Japanese is not wrong when designing and fielding F-2 as their experience will be recorded and the production line can be altered to made a more advanced version of fighter such as F-35 like the US has proposed to Japan.

 

[Aepsilons]

The Mitsubishi F-2 a similar engine as the F-16 Block 50 variant, however, there are great capabilities of the F-2, which was designed as a multirole fighter to cover maritime domain. For one, the F-2 has a service ceiling of 59,000 feet (vs the F-16, which has a ceiling of only 50,000 feet) -- thus the F-2 has better situational awareness cability. Lastly, the F-2 is armed with AESA, whereas the F-16 blocks are not. In addition, the F-2 are more maneuverable than the F-16 variants , have greater payload capability , and are armed to the teeth with MItsubishi AAM-4 , AAM-5 as well as the XASM-3s

And Japanese is not wrong when designing and fielding F-2 as their experience will be recorded and the production line can be altered to made a more advanced version of fighter such as F-35 like the US has proposed to Japan.

Yes, of course.

Tha
thats why i ask, do indonesia really need co developping 5th gen fighter that at the time KFX Roll out, american will release its 6th gen fighter, and have to compete with mature russia and china 5th gen fighter, its obvious that indonesia will never developed its own fighter....better straight buying it from america, russia or china, its more feassible to developed new generation medium helicopter and cargo plane or ucav rather than a fighter

There is nothing wrong in developing greater experience in fielding and designing an indigenous fighter. For example, look at the Koreans' success in the T-50 (similar capability with F-16, yet at the fragment of the cost). Developing developmental experience is the basis for future abilities. Indonesia's cooperation with Seoul in regards tot he KFX project will benefit Indonesia in the future when the country decides to build its own fighter. Besides, let us not forget the benefits of having an independent military arms industry.

 

[Nike]

Indonesian Navy mulls Chinese 30 mm CIWS fit for corvettes, LPDs

Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
17 February 2015

The Indonesian Navy (TNI-AL) is exploring the possibility of equipping its Kapitan Pattimura (Parchim I)-class corvettes and Makassar-class landing platform dock (LPD) ships with the Chinese-developed Type 730 close-in weapon system (CIWS), a source close to the TNI-AL informed IHS Jane's on 18 February.

This follows the installation of a Type 730 CIWS turret on a Kapitan Pattimura-class ship, KRI Sultan Thaha Syaifuddin . IHS Jane's understands that state-owned shipyard PT PAL has recently completed installation of the turret and will soon begin integrating a radar sensor into the system before commencing live-firing trials.

" Sultan Thaha Syaifuddin is the first vessel to be used as [a] trial for the Chinese system," said the source, adding that the 14 other ships-in-class will also be likely to receive the weapons if it is deemed suitable.

Indonesian Navy mulls Chinese 30 mm CIWS fit for corvettes, LPDs - IHS Jane's 360

@cnleio , we had more than 18 vessels to be fitted with this CIWS, tell us more about PLAN experience with them?

@Nihonjin1051 thanks for your explanation

 

[Aepsilons]

the benefit to join KFX programme

1. to get know how about how to designing and building a modern fighter
2. to get a proper learning on how to running and managing an ambitious project such as KFX/IFX project
3. KFX itself not an inferior fighter at all, thus their capability will be put between the most modern of F-16 block 52 ++ and F-35 fighter who had been known to have excellent electronic warfare suit and ECM capability, combining them with excellent maneuverable design
4. to get a closer relationship with South Korea, and we all know South Korea has a robust defense industry and not to mention they have an excellent technological engineering capability capable to match a much larger and well established defense industry like US and Russia
5. South Korea is not a large Nation, and their National interest is doesn't clash with us at all. And the most important thing is they can't dictate what Indonesia must to do in this project. When you suggest us to bought Pak-Fa, i don't thing the Russian will gladly share their know how about building Pak-Fa to Indonesian side they must be want to dictate us to bought their armament and platforms.


One thing, how you can build Sixth gen fighter even you can't build a decent fighter before? please to enlighten me

If i may interject. I would also like to say that out of the nations in ASEAN, it is only Indonesia that has the initiative to co-develop its own defense platforms with another great power (South Korea) instead of merely purchasing foreign military inventory. The Indonesian military industry is a developing one and their strides and gains in naval, air and ground is notable as well. In the future i would like to see an Indonesia that builds its weapons platforms.