Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

I also mentioned Taiwan, who has been F-16 operators since the 1990's and they were quoted $121 mil per aircraft. The deal was also very recent (Des 2019).

Keep in mind, that Taiwan's case is special in regards to it's unique security situation. So I generally avoid looking to its DSCA releases for comparisons.

 

[Gundala]

You said with only $2.2 billion of cash we could get 36 F16V (16 new + 20 used). I make a counter offer. With exactly the same amount of cash ($2.2 bil) we could get 44 SU-35 as the Russians would accept the remaining $2.2 bil (Rp 31T) as export commodity.

All 44 brand new SU-35. Complete with munitions/missiles. All combat ready.

Not only that, our economy also got boosted with Rp 31T worth of export commodity. Something that's really precious in this pandemic era.

Im affraid thats not going to happen. From what I see our AU Heavy fighter projection is only 2 SKA. WIth GSP already been approved from US means we have to balance the trade. Of all those P-8/Air tank/EWA what we need the most with limited budget is fighter platform. So there ya go, looks like its going to come down between hornet & viper.

Yes, the projection of how 6th gen fighter would be like should be taken into our consideration to just skip 5th gen. The good news is that there'll be more providers from different countries.

We still need to have 5th gen as learning curve tho. Those countries who rejected F-35 over European fighters jet are all in advanced level in terms of aviation industry, so they can afford to by pass the learning curve.

Our TNI-AU actually has a good plan by getting SU-35 in 2018 and having 3 sq of F16V by 2024. That will be enough to wait for the maturity/production of KFX. Our first batch Sukhoi will enter their retirement around 2030-2035, so they might be phased out and replace by KFX. Our network centric project with Greece will be done in 2024-2025. And from that year onward interoperability between assets will become important thus most likely side lining all the sukhoi slowly. Tho we can still do what Egypt does by using ground control system to manage the assets but still it will be faster if they can both interconnect with ground control and within the flight it self.

 

[¿Por qué?]

Let's take a look at Bahrain's DSCA for their brand new F-16V here :

Government of Bahrain – F-16V Aircraft with Support | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

It's worth $2.785 bil for 19 jets. It includes the engines. vulcan gun systems, all the radar systems (including AESA), the launchers, etc. No missiles, bombs, etc. You got $146 mil per aircraft.

Now let's take a look at Bahrain's DSCA for their F-16V upgrade (from block-40) here :

Government of Bahrain – Upgrade of F-16 Block 40 Aircraft to F-16V Configuration | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

It's $1.082 bil for 20 jets. It means $54 mil per aircraft.

I'm not sure where the $2.2 bil number for 16 new + 20 used is coming from.

Now let's compare it with Taiwan's DSCA for their 66 brand new F-16V below :

Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States (TECRO) – F-16C/D Block 70 Aircraft and Related Equipment and Support | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

It's worth $8 bil for 66 aircrafts. So it's $121 mil per aircraft. No missiles, etc but with many more equipment than Bahrain's.

Summary :
$146 mil per aircraft for Bahrain
$121 mil per aircraft for Taiwan.

 

[trishna_amṛta]

Im affraid thats not going to happen. From what I see our AU Heavy fighter projection is only 2 SKA. WIth GSP already been approved from US means we have to balance the trade. Of all those P-8/Air tank/EWA what we need the most with limited budget is fighter platform. So there ya go, looks like its going to come down between hornet & viper.

YES finally someone here who also see the connection with GSP. We may receive waiver for CAATSA but......

 

[umigami]

YES finally someone here who also see the connection with GSP. We may receive waiver for CAATSA but......

...but it's not for air assets (?)

 

[Gundala]

I'm not sure where the $2.2 bil number for 16 new + 20 used is coming from.

First of all we need to understand the how FMS & DCS works including their adv & disadv. DCSA and actual contract might be different for various reasons. Bahrain reduced their order to 16 and made some adjustments. Here is my post:

"Bahrain (2018) ; 16 Viper for $1.1 bil = @$69 mil. LM contract to build aircraft & support. But they also upgrade their 20 fighters of F16 block 40 to F16V for $1.082 bil which include new engines, avionics and an active electronically scanned array radar system."

Looking at the number those $1.1 bil is for manufactur and limited support only. That means no support contract, no training both pilot & technician, no spare parts. I assume those things went thru DCS.

Now check this out for comparison. Its Qatar F15-QA and Qatar is F-15 FIRST TIME user. Check out how much they pay for service contract, training, parts, infratructure etc.

" Kontrak pertama yang belum diumumkan, didapat Boeing pada 2019 untuk mendukung manajemen program F-15QA, pemeliharaan, dan pelatihan para awak f-15QA senilai 240 juta dolas AS untuk lima tahun. "

" Kontrak kedua, senilai 68 juta dolar AS di mana Boeing akan memberikan dukungan pemeliharaan dan logistik kepada QEAF selama pelatihan pra-pengiriman F-15QA yang akan dimulai awal tahun depan."

"Kontrak yang ketiga, didapatkan Boeing pada November tahun ini senilai 500 juta dolar AS. Boeing akan memberi QEAF suku cadang dan dukungan logistik di dalam negeri setelah pesawat F-15QA dikirim ke Qatar."

Boeing dapat kontrak 808 juta dolar AS untuk pelatihan dan dukungan F-15QA

That whooping numbers you got from DCSA (F16V) might be coming from whole package with different total airframe.

What Im trying to say that Bahrain numbers if it include parts & logistics might add another $300+ mil or so. But Bahrain new Viper can give us a hint on how much is the base price without the parts/logistics contract. This is one of the reason (budget wise) "sometime" we didnt take this kind of contract, for any other time ini bs ngilangin "lapak" harwat oknum yg tdak bertanggung jwab.

Now looking at Qatar F-15 we all know roughly how much we have to pay if we want to introduce new fighter platform into our TNI-AU. I bet most of us know its expensive but have no idea how expensive it is. Oh btw those numbers is for 36 brand new F-15. This is one of the reason in this current pandemic situation its wise not to introduce new platform and stick to F16V.

 

[¿Por qué?]

Im affraid thats not going to happen. From what I see our AU Heavy fighter projection is only 2 SKA. WIth GSP already been approved from US means we have to balance the trade. Of all those P-8/Air tank/EWA what we need the most with limited budget is fighter platform. So there ya go, looks like its going to come down between hornet & viper.

Well, that's not really the point I was making though. I said F-16V is an expensive aircraft in the earlier post, and pointed out in that post using comparison with our own SU-35 deal that even with the $2.2 bil for Bahrain, which I still have doubt about the number, we still see value for money in our own double engine aircraft deal (more birds, brand new, missiles, etc).

First of all we need to understand the how FMS & DCS works including their adv & disadv. DCSA and actual contract might be different for various reasons. Bahrain reduced their order to 16 and made some adjustments. Here is my post:

"Bahrain (2018) ; 16 Viper for $1.1 bil = @$69 mil. LM contract to build aircraft & support. But they also upgrade their 20 fighters of F16 block 40 to F16V for $1.082 bil which include new engines, avionics and an active electronically scanned array radar system."

Looking at the number those $1.1 bil is for manufactur and limited support only. That means no support contract, no training both pilot & technician, no spare parts. I assume those things went thru DCS.

Now check this out for comparison. Its Qatar F15-QA and Qatar is F-15 FIRST TIME user. Check out how much they pay for service contract, training, parts, infratructure etc.

" Kontrak pertama yang belum diumumkan, didapat Boeing pada 2019 untuk mendukung manajemen program F-15QA, pemeliharaan, dan pelatihan para awak f-15QA senilai 240 juta dolas AS untuk lima tahun. "

" Kontrak kedua, senilai 68 juta dolar AS di mana Boeing akan memberikan dukungan pemeliharaan dan logistik kepada QEAF selama pelatihan pra-pengiriman F-15QA yang akan dimulai awal tahun depan."

"Kontrak yang ketiga, didapatkan Boeing pada November tahun ini senilai 500 juta dolar AS. Boeing akan memberi QEAF suku cadang dan dukungan logistik di dalam negeri setelah pesawat F-15QA dikirim ke Qatar."

Boeing dapat kontrak 808 juta dolar AS untuk pelatihan dan dukungan F-15QA

That whooping numbers you got from DCSA (F16V) might be coming from whole package with different total airframe.

What Im trying to say that Bahrain numbers if it include parts & logistics might add another $300+ mil or so. But Bahrain new Viper can give us a hint on how much is the base price without the parts/logistics contract. This is one of the reason (budget wise) "sometime" we didnt take this kind of contract, for any other time ini bs ngilangin "lapak" harwat oknum yg tdak bertanggung jwab.

Now looking at Qatar F-15 we all know roughly how much we have to pay if we want to introduce new fighter platform into our TNI-AU. I bet most of us know its expensive but have no idea how expensive it is. Oh btw those numbers is for 36 brand new F-15. This is one of the reason in this current pandemic situation its wise not to introduce new platform and stick to F16V.

I still have doubts man. I mean just compare the new price that you quoted ($69 mil) and the upgrade price from block-40 ($54 mil). You only need another $15 mil to buy the new one. Surely one of the numbers is incorrect. We both agree with the upgrade number ($54 mil), and it's indeed stated as much in the DSCA. So my guess is that the $69 mil is probably the one that is incorrect.

Btw, that's great info that you share regarding the cost to introduce 36 brand new F-15 platform ($808 mil) for Qatar. I really thought that it would require something like $1 bil - $2 bil to do it. It's rather good news for me.

So Qatar basically have to add $23 mil for each jet. I assume the number to add per jet will go down the more we add the jets. It means we have to make sure that if we want to introduce the new platform it will be for at least 4 squadrons for the next > 30 yrs. So choosing the best future development for the new platform is a must. I think it's still feasible for us.

 

[Raduga]

Intermezzo news , italy are set to build a new naval destroyer/cruiser with length over 175 meter and weighing 10.000 tons to replace their old two durand de la penne class .

https://news.yahoo.com/italy-plans-destroyers-2028-delivery-100000315.html

it's not italian if their ship doesn't have more than one or two Oto Melara cannon .

 

[Nike]

Intermezzo news , italy are set to build a new naval destroyer/cruiser with length over 175 meter and weighing 10.000 tons to replace their old two durand de la penne class .

https://news.yahoo.com/italy-plans-destroyers-2028-delivery-100000315.html
View attachment 687960
it's not italian if their ship doesn't have more than one or two Oto Melara cannon .

Italian offered us their Frigates design and Durand De la penne ships

 

[HellFireIndo]

Intermezzo news , italy are set to build a new naval destroyer/cruiser with length over 175 meter and weighing 10.000 tons to replace their old two durand de la penne class .

https://news.yahoo.com/italy-plans-destroyers-2028-delivery-100000315.html
View attachment 687960
it's not italian if their ship doesn't have more than one or two Oto Melara cannon .

Fantastique, fit for KRI Irian's legacy

 

[¿Por qué?]

Interesting project.

===================

UK to drive down Typhoon operating costs to match F-16
By Craig Hoyle20 July 2017

The UK Royal Air Force is to enhance the capability of its Eurofighter Typhoons by using money saved via a new in-service support model for the multirole type.

Dubbed the Typhoon total availability enterprise, or Tytan, the new, 10-year arrangement between the RAF and industry partners BAE Systems and Leonardo is expected to reduce the Typhoon's per-hour operating cost by 30-40%. This should equate to a saving of at least £550 million ($712 million), which "will be recycled into the programme", according to BAE Systems Military Air & Information managing director Chris Boardman.

Introduced one year ago at RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire and RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland, the Tytan framework is already delivering savings, and attracting "phenomenal" interest from other programmes, including Lockheed Martin's F-35, Boardman says. His goal is for the initiative to eventually result in the Typhoon having a per-hour operating cost "equivalent to a [Lockheed] F-16".

"You can't reduce cost by just using the same system," Boardman says. "We need to get more for less if we're going to push forward."
UK-specific initiatives already introduced via the Tytan contract include increasing the intervals between scheduled major maintenance activities, which will increase aircraft availability and reduce repair bills. Deep maintenance initially scheduled after every 400 flight hours has previously been extended to a 500h interval, and is expected to be stretched further to 750h.

Now in an advanced stage of assessment before being adopted, the "fundamental changes" will "stop things being taken apart, parts being consumed and people's time being consumed on maintenance activity that is not necessary under the current regime", Boardman says. This will involve industry taking "more risk and accountability" on required service intervals and parts ordering, he adds. BAE has previously embarked on a similar model with the Royal Saudi Air Force, he notes.

UK to drive down Typhoon operating costs to match F-16

The UK Royal Air Force is to enhance the capability of its Eurofighter Typhoons by using money saved via a new in-service support model for the multirole type.

www.flightglobal.com

 

[Kansel]

Do not forget we are very strapped on cash . Even 15 % DP from the whole budget could put a very big strain on our finance .

Hahahah i know what you're meant by that 15% DP

 

[Ravager]

Hahahah i know what you're meant by that 15% DP

Let them dream some more . It isn't right time for a " bantingan " as yet

 

[umigami]

Let them dream some more . It isn't right time for a " bantingan " as yet

How LOW something can be considered "bantingan" anyway?
For me, even Palcon Gurun can't be considered "bantingan" anymore at this point!!

 

[Ravager]

How LOW something can be considered "bantingan" anyway?
For me, even Palcon Gurun can't be considered "bantingan" anymore at this point!!

Without some DP at the point of reservation even those meager " falkon buluk " were only a distant dream and fantasy ....
Some people still underestimating on how much slow and tedious our beuracracy are working to slowing our progress on all front is .....
And make a note ! Our beuracracy speed today were allready increased as much as 200 % compared to soeharto era ....