Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

This is what bothers me. How come they managed to buy SU-35 (24 of them!) after all that. After Rafale/SCALP fiasco they still didn't bother to purchase U.S. jets.

Maybe we should do the same

Just proceed with the old $1.1b deal to get 11 SU-35, and convert the budget for 32 F-16V (was it $4.5b?) to get SU-35 instead. We go full Russian

Now this is interesting, Russian news agency TASS said that the Russians started producing SU-35s for Egypt in May 2020. Now the first 5 of them arrived already in August 2020. If this news is valid, then the production line for SU-35 is probably rather empty now. If we want to switch TNI-AU to be totally independent of U.S. made jets/missiles/parts then maybe this is the right time.

CAATSA (hopefully) won't last forever and looking at the current geopolitical climate, we might probably see a future where the U.S. will have less and less close allies in Europe. Maybe go full Russian would be much better for us (TNI-AU) than all the other alternatives.

Sorry, but you will be hard pressed to find a lot of people on this section that would support buying Russian. It's been talked and debated time and time again and it all comes down to the same conclusion.

The TNI AU should not be buying Russian Jets, or any Russian equipment for that matter because:

(i) We are not Vietnam, our infrastructure is geared towards US jets.

(ii) Russian aircraft is now considered somewhat inferior to their Chinese counterparts as a result of Chinese reverse engineering and evaluations from Russian equipment that they bought.

(iii) The quality of Russian aftersale support is piss poor, and it was designed that way as a business strategy. They will not want to set up an MRO unless you pay even more money (think twice-thrice the amount needed for buying the initial jets) and even then, the levels of services is still limited. Don't believe me? Ask the Malaysians.

(iv) As a result of those aforementioned reasons, the costs and liability of transitioning to an all-Russian equipped Air Force is too high and would take far too long to reach IOC/FOC.

(v) The end-user themselves (the TNI-AU) does not want Russian fighters. The push for Russian and non-American fighters comes from interest parties within the parliament and MenHan, not from the TNI-AU.

 

[JCMan]

kalau ada yang bilang ga kordinasi sama kaveleri dlm proses pembuatan harimau itu salah besar. mulai dr tahap spesifikasi sampai design dan testing mereka (kav) ikut involved. mindset bagus leo dr harimau kemudian mending beli leo dari pada harimau itu yang salah karena leo dan harimau ga bisa di bandingin apel ke apel ga on par beda kelas pula beda tupoksi nya maklum doktrin kav kelamaan pake scorpi sekali pegang mbt semua di samaain seperti istilah track vichle = tank nah mind set seperti itulah yg di manfaat kan oleh pihak tertentu kemudian di jadikan klaim yg saya rasa sepihak juga bahwa kav or pusenkav ga mau harimau..tapi bila dikatakan keputusan pembuatan harimau sarat politik juga gasalah cb pemirsa dan nitizen sekalian kilas balik saja bagaimana riwayat asal mula dan ide awal pembuatan medium tank jangan setengah atau dpt berita sepotong langsung di amin kan saja agar berat ilmu nya ga timpang regard

Agreed, sooner or later people will realize that the person in question is plainly full of sh*t, because anyone who keep spinning things and spewing bullcr*p will eventually contradict themselves.

Any person with an ounce of intellect can see through the mumbo jumbo of hearsay and unsubstantiated "I heard from some guy in some position or office that this or that is true" that he kept spewing. The guy basically built his entire facade of supposed credentials around how he knows things because he's in the loop, had alleged connections with some vague brass or industry insiders, etc etc but all that he can show for it are (biased) opinions that suits certain agendas.

Sure, the guy may or may not had actual experience, but the habbit of spinning or skewing things to fit his agendas gets old REAL quick. People will soon notice this, no doubt about it.

He might have taken all of us for fools who will just swallow some hearsay news about the Harimau no question asked, but some of us actually followed the MMWT program closely enough to be able to tell the nonsense from the truth.

The more untruths came out from him, the easier it can be debunked and the faster he will get exposed. Cheers!

 

[JCMan]

Sorry, but you will be hard pressed to find a lot of people on this section that would support buying Russian. It's been talked and debated time and time again and it all comes down to the same conclusion.

The TNI AU should not be buying Russian Jets, or any Russian equipment for that matter because:

(i) We are not Vietnam, our infrastructure is geared towards US jets.

(ii) Russian aircraft is now considered somewhat inferior to their Chinese counterparts as a result of Chinese reverse engineering and evaluations from Russian equipment that they bought.

(iii) The quality of Russian aftersale support is piss poor, and it was designed that way as a business strategy. They will not want to set up an MRO unless you pay even more money (think twice-thrice the amount needed for buying the initial jets) and even then, the levels of services is still limited. Don't believe me? Ask the Malaysians.

(iv) As a result of those aforementioned reasons, the costs and liability of transitioning to an all-Russian equipped Air Force is too high and would take far too long to reach IOC/FOC.

(v) The end-user themselves (the TNI-AU) does not want Russian fighters. The push for Russian and non-American fighters comes from interest parties within the parliament and MenHan, not from the TNI-AU.

Yeah, I heard that the Chinese were so unimpressed with how inferior the Su-35 are compared to their indigenous fighters that they actually decided to buy them fully knowing that the Russian's export models were of lower capability than their own domestic ones, imagine that! Mind boggling stuff indeed..

I reckon the US will also buy the JF-17 because they also think that it was inferior to the F-16 in every aspect!

 

[Nike]

Yeah, I heard that the Chinese were so unimpressed with how inferior the Su-35 are compared to their indigenous fighters that they actually bought them, imagine that! Mind boggling stuff indeed..

China still not matured at several key technology especially high end turbofan engine used for fighter, even after spending dozen Billion US Dollar for such development but still they keep improving lately. They keep improving their defense industry by acquire many other country platform (the best one) as many as possible and use them for learning stuff not as key platform to outperform their main competitor.

Su 35 will not be the China main combatant platform, their J 10 and J11 will be, and with J 20 and J31 being matured they Will have a whole league Airforce even above the Russian in several key indicator.

 

[JCMan]

China still not matured at several key technology especially high end turbofan engine used for fighter, even after spending dozen Billion US Dollar for such development but still they keep improving lately. They keep improving their defense industry by acquire many other country platform (the best one) as many as possible and use them for learning stuff not as key platform to outperform their main competitor.

Su 35 will not be the China main combatant platform, their J 10 and J11 will be, and with J 20 and J31 being matured they Will have a whole league Airforce even above the Russian in several key indicator.

That's not the point, the point is if indeed the statement "Russian aircrafts are now considered somewhat inferior to their Chinese counterparts" is true, then why did China bought the Su-35 with full understanding that the Russians will supply them with export models (which is of lesser capability than the domestic variants) because Russia themselves would have predicted China to try and reverse engineer the planes?

People reverse engineer technologies which are superior than their own, not the ones which are inferior than theirs.

 

[Chestnut]

*Yawn*

Original interview:
https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/d...7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g

English translation:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/detail-ihmutuec7501376.d.html?from=wap&fbclid=IwAR0Zimt46_KUVu7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g


Highlights:

- The SU-35 serves as an excellent benchmark for the Chinese military to gauge the effectiveness of their own development vs international standards.

- Su-35 is very maneuverable, possibly the most maneuverable fighter in the PLAAF

- The N035E is an excellent PESA radar. It's pretty much the best PESA radar you can practically develop.

- However, it's substantially weaker than the current generation of Chinese AESAs.

- The N035E radar has some interesting features, for example it is capable of detecting a target at extended ranges (350km) if it's only required to scan a small area (about the size of the HUD). This is not particularly useful without AWACS cueing.

- ESM/ECM systems are not as good as the J-16s. If the J16 were to be rated a 10/10, the Su-35 would be an 8.5/10 on ESM and 8/10 on ECM performance.

- The IRST is also worse, due to the state of the Russian electronics/optics industry.

- The R-77 and R-73 can be used on China's older stock of Russian fighters (Su-27/Su-30MKKs).

- R-77/R-73 are unremarkable, and performance trails the Chinese PL-10 and PL-15 missiles.

- The Su-35 has an interesting feature, the "БОСЭС" or "Duel" which, if programmed with the capability of the opposing fighter, can automatically track the enemy in real time and recommend optimized decisions. It presents a good look into the Russian understanding of air combat modeling - and China may seek to do something similar for their 5th generation fights. (Coupled with advances in Chinese AI technology).

- The 117S engine is very good. It has 13% more dry thrust than the older AL-31F, which is already superior to the domestic WS-10.

- The Su-35s have some form of datalink capability, and have some level of integration into Chinese air defense networks.

- The Su-35 is giving China lots of experience with a super maneuverable thrust vectoring aircraft, and is influencing Chinese decisions on where to go with fighter development.

- They've learned quite a bit via dissimilar air combat training exercises with the Su-35.

- "the 117S engine is also the key subsystem for the first time after the introduction of the Su-35" - I think this means that the engine is the primary reason the Su-35 was bought.

- The officer's dream heavy 4.5th generation fighter would be a J-16 with 117S engines.

 

[JCMan]

*Yawn*

Original interview:
https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/d...7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g

English translation:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://mil.sina.cn/sd/2018-12-09/detail-ihmutuec7501376.d.html?from=wap&fbclid=IwAR0Zimt46_KUVu7lzkOy6OXCwaKc_jbkDrSlt_K9Qdn1WqMdPc7DTwlb24g


Highlights:

- The SU-35 serves as an excellent benchmark for the Chinese military to gauge the effectiveness of their own development vs international standards.

- Su-35 is very maneuverable, possibly the most maneuverable fighter in the PLAAF

- The N035E is an excellent PESA radar. It's pretty much the best PESA radar you can practically develop.

- However, it's substantially weaker than the current generation of Chinese AESAs.

- The N035E radar has some interesting features, for example it is capable of detecting a target at extended ranges (350km) if it's only required to scan a small area (about the size of the HUD). This is not particularly useful without AWACS cueing.

- ESM/ECM systems are not as good as the J-16s. If the J16 were to be rated a 10/10, the Su-35 would be an 8.5/10 on ESM and 8/10 on ECM performance.

- The IRST is also worse, due to the state of the Russian electronics/optics industry.

- The R-77 and R-73 can be used on China's older stock of Russian fighters (Su-27/Su-30MKKs).

- R-77/R-73 are unremarkable, and performance trails the Chinese PL-10 and PL-15 missiles.

- The Su-35 has an interesting feature, the "БОСЭС" or "Duel" which, if programmed with the capability of the opposing fighter, can automatically track the enemy in real time and recommend optimized decisions. It presents a good look into the Russian understanding of air combat modeling - and China may seek to do something similar for their 5th generation fights. (Coupled with advances in Chinese AI technology).

- The 117S engine is very good. It has 13% more dry thrust than the older AL-31F, which is already superior to the domestic WS-10.

- The Su-35s have some form of datalink capability, and have some level of integration into Chinese air defense networks.

- The Su-35 is giving China lots of experience with a super maneuverable thrust vectoring aircraft, and is influencing Chinese decisions on where to go with fighter development.

- They've learned quite a bit via dissimilar air combat training exercises with the Su-35.

- "the 117S engine is also the key subsystem for the first time after the introduction of the Su-35" - I think this means that the engine is the primary reason the Su-35 was bought.

- The officer's dream heavy 4.5th generation fighter would be a J-16 with 117S engines.

Ah great, a Chinese article about how superior their technological advancements are compared to peer nations. Thanks!

 

[Nike]

That's not the point, the point is if indeed the statement "Russian aircrafts are now considered somewhat inferior to their Chinese counterparts" is true, then why did China bought the Su-35 with full understanding that the Russians will supply them with export models (which is of lesser capability than the domestic variants) because Russia themselves would have predicted China to try and reverse engineer the planes?

People reverse engineer technologies which are superior than their own, not the ones which are inferior than theirs.

Because China only need the engine used for Su 35 not the whole platform system, aka Saturn AL41F in which came from development of Saturn AL31. In which the family machine had been used to powered Chinese J11 family in from of WS10A and being produced since 2010 or maybe earlier. Russian never allow China to bought only the engine so they offered the Su 35 as a whole package as Russian know China doesn't need Russian fighter anymore afterall.

That's why China never intended to buy Su 35 at large number, their attitude is different when compared the first time they are buying Su 27 and Su 30 in early 1990. And you should know where China put Su 35 squadron of their, they put it in Guangdong part of 2nd Aviation Division, Southern province of China where they only had to facing less complex supposed enemies of their like Vietnam or Taiwan and other ASEAN countries.

 

[Chestnut]

Ah great, a Chinese article about how superior their technological advancements are compared to peer nations. Thanks!

Considering how the Russians are/were having trouble developing the Felon due to their economy tanking, whilst the J-20 program worked out fine, there's not much of a point doubting so. You can see it plain as day.

Furthermore, as I recall you were the one who was saying how we should get the Su-35 based on that inaccurate article from Military Watch Magazine of supposedly Link 16 capable Flankers. But yet you are now admitting that...

Russian's export models were of lower capability than their own domestic ones

So essentially you're saying that not only should we get a dumbed down export model, we should get one that's already inferior AND exploited by the current notional threat?

Geez bro, as you said I might be a bloodsucking salesman with OBVIOUSLY no idea what I am talking about and CLEARLY have no connections or correspondence to the industry I worked in, and absolutely NOBODY I talked to here knows me outside of this so OBVIOUSLY they I can't confirm I am who I say I am; But at least I wouldn't go as far as suggesting we gimp ourselves in terms of capability for the sake of fanboyism.

That's just cringe my guy.

 

[JCMan]

Considering how the Russians are/were having trouble developing the Felon due to their economy tanking, whilst the J-20 program worked out fine, there's not much of a point doubting so. You can see it plain as day.

Furthermore, as I recall you were the one who was saying how we should get the Su-35 based on that inaccurate article from Military Watch Magazine of supposedly Link 16 capable Flankers. But yet you are now admitting that...



So essentially you're saying that not only should we get a dumbed down export model, we should get one that's already inferior AND exploited by the current notional threat?

Geez bro, as you said I might be a bloodsucking salesman with OBVIOUSLY no idea what I am talking about and CLEARLY have no connections or correspondence to the industry I worked in, and absolutely NOBODY I talked to here knows me outside of this so OBVIOUSLY they I can't confirm I am who I say I am; But at least I wouldn't go as far as suggesting we gimp ourselves in terms of capability for the sake of fanboyism.

That's just cringe my guy.

You took the words right off my mouth, why on earth would China reverse engineer "inferior" technologies that was downgraded even more in the monkey models that the Russians were selling for their export customers? I'm frankly dumbfounded. And here I thought China was the one supposed to own superior aircraft technologies.

 

[Chestnut]

Because reverse engineer does not always mean improve, my guy.

Sometimes, state actors buy equipment to reverse engineer in order to develop countermeasures against them. For example, how China likely learned how to defeat (and improve upon) the Russian SAP-518 ECM pod by reverse-engineering and developing their own for their J-16.

And if you don't want to use China, here's an article of when the US Navy bought Kh-31 missiles in order to test and reverse-engineer them in order to develop countermeasures against them for their ships.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...missiles-so-they-bought-real-ones-from-russia

Now, the Kh-31 is essentially useless and obsolete.

 

[Lasa-X]

Yeah, I heard that the Chinese were so unimpressed with how inferior the Su-35 are compared to their indigenous fighters that they actually decided to buy them fully knowing that the Russian's export models were of lower capability than their own domestic ones, imagine that! Mind boggling stuff indeed..

I reckon the US will also buy the JF-17 because they also think that it was inferior to the F-16 in every aspect!

Hahahahahahaaaa

 

[Nike]

Anggaran Kemenhan Rp 136,9 T, Ini Daftar Belanja Prabowo 2021
Cantika Adinda Putri, CNBC Indonesia
NEWS

14 August 2020 18:58

Foto: Menteri Pertahanan Letnan Jenderal TNI (Purn) Prabowo Subianto hadir secara langsung dalam Sidang Tahunan MPR RI dan Sidang Bersama DPR RI dan DPD RI di ruang sidang MPR RI, Jakarta, Jumat (14/8/2020). (BPMI Sekretariat Presiden)

Jakarta, CNBC Indonesia- Menteri Keuangan Sri Mulyani Indrawati menjelaskan soal anggaran Kementerian Pertahanan yang mencapai Rp 136,9 triliun dalam RUU APBN Tahun Anggaran 2021.

Sri Mulyani menjelaskan anggaran tersebut diperuntukan untuk kebutuhan pemenuhan alat utama sistem pertahanan (alutsista) serta perawatannya. "Itu sesuai dengan prioritas Kemenhan dan melihat tidak deviasi besar (peningkatan anggaran)," ujar Sri Mulyani dalam penjelasan Nota Keuangan dan RAPBN 2021, Jumat (14/8/2020).

Meski demikian, dia mengatakan ada concern terhadap akses belanja alutsista yang sesuai dengan spesifikasi Kemenhan yang berperan dalam penyerapan anggaran. Namun, kebutuhan alustsisa sebagian akan dipenuhi dengan peningkatan produksi dalam negeri.


"Anggaran Kemenhan juga untuk industri strategis dan mendukung kepastian dan mendukung dalam negeri," ujar Sri Mulyani.

Pada dasarnya, Presiden Jokowi sudah meminta agar sebagian kebutuhan persenjataan di RI bisa dipenuhi oleh industri dalam negeri.



Baca:
Jokowi Ajukan Anggaran Kementerian Prabowo Rp 136,9 T di 2021


Seperti dikutip dari Buku Nota Keuangan II Beserta RAPBN TA 2021, anggaran kementerian yang dipimpin Letnan Jenderal TNI (Purn) Prabowo Subianto itu lebih tinggi dari yang pertama kali diusulkan dalam Kerangka Ekonomi Makro dan Pokok-Pokok Kebijakan Fiskal Tahun 2021 yang mencapai Rp 129,3 triliun.

Adapun anggaran Kemenhan yang diajukan Jokowi untuk belanja tahun anggaran 2021, meningkat 18,76% dari belanja Kemenhan pada tahun anggaran 2019 yang mencapai Rp 115,35 triliun.

Untuk diketahui, anggaran belanja Kemenhan dari tahun 2016 hingga tahun 2021 mengalami fluktuasi. Dari anggaran belanja tahun 2016 ke anggaran belanja tahun 2017 meningkat 19,6%. Kemudian anggaran tahun 2017 ke 2018 turun 9,04%. Sementara anggaran belanja Kemenhan dari tahun 2018 hingga ke tahun 2019 dan 2020 meningkat.

"Pada 2016 sebesar Rp 98,1 triliun. Pada 2017 Rp 117,3 triliun, pada 2018 menurun menjadi Rp 106,7 triliun. Kemudian kembali meningkat untuk anggaran tahun 2019 yang sebesar Rp 115,4 triliun. Outlook 2020 Rp 117,9 triliun dan RAPBN 2021 Rp 136,9 triliun," demikian tertera dalam Buku II Nota Keuangan beserta RAPBN Tahun 2021, dikutip CNBC Indonesia, Jumat (14/8/2020).

Dalam RAPBN tahun 2021, pendapatan BLU Kementerian Pertahanan ditargetkan sebesar Rp 3,093 triliun, turun 2,6% dari proyeksi tahun 2020 sebesar Rp 3,170 triliun.

Target tahun 2021 itu disusun berdasarkan pertimbangan masa transisi dari penerapan program lama ke program baru serta akibat adanya pandemi Covid-19 yang berpengaruh besar pada penurunan jumlah pasien sehingga berdampak terjadinya penurunan pendapatan
rumah sakit.

Mengutip dokumen Kerangka Ekonomi Makro dan Pokok-Pokok Kebijakan Fiskal Tahun 2021 yang bertajuk Percepatan Pemulihan Ekonomi dan Penguatan Reformasi, anggaran Kemenhan digunakan untuk mendukung pencapaian target prioritas pembangunan nasional di bidang pertahanan.

Adapun program-program Kemenhan antara lain porgram penggunaan kekuatan, program modernisasi alutsista dan non alutsista dan sarana prasarana pertahanan, program pembinaan sumber daya pertahanan, dan program profesionalisme dan kesejahteraan prajurit.

"Selain itu, alokasi rupiah murni juga ditujukan untuk penyelesaian proyek/kegiatan yang ditunda/terhambat akibat adanya pandemi Covid-19 di TA 2020," tulis dokumen tersebut.



Baca:
Jokowi Buka-bukaan Soal Food Estate yang Dipimpin Prabowo


Dalam dokumen ini, disebutkan beberapa sasaran output strategis Kemenhan pada 2021. Salah satunya, adalah dukungan pengadaan alat utama sistem senjata TNI (alutsista) sebanyak 5 paket.

Kemudian, dukungan pengadaan munisi kaliber kecil sebanyak 1 paket, dukungan pengadaan atau penggantian kendaraan tempur sebanyak 12 unit, hingga KRI, KAL, Alpung dan Ranpur/Rantis Matra Laut sebanyak 14 unit.

"Dukungan pengadaan/penggantian pesawat udara dan lainnya sebanyak 4 unit," tulis dokumen tersebut.

https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/news/...han-rp-1369-t-ini-daftar-belanja-prabowo-2021

 

[¿Por qué?]

Sorry, but you will be hard pressed to find a lot of people on this section that would support buying Russian. It's been talked and debated time and time again and it all comes down to the same conclusion.

The TNI AU should not be buying Russian Jets, or any Russian equipment for that matter because:

(i) We are not Vietnam, our infrastructure is geared towards US jets.

(ii) Russian aircraft is now considered somewhat inferior to their Chinese counterparts as a result of Chinese reverse engineering and evaluations from Russian equipment that they bought.

(iii) The quality of Russian aftersale support is piss poor, and it was designed that way as a business strategy. They will not want to set up an MRO unless you pay even more money (think twice-thrice the amount needed for buying the initial jets) and even then, the levels of services is still limited. Don't believe me? Ask the Malaysians.

(iv) As a result of those aforementioned reasons, the costs and liability of transitioning to an all-Russian equipped Air Force is too high and would take far too long to reach IOC/FOC.

(v) The end-user themselves (the TNI-AU) does not want Russian fighters. The push for Russian and non-American fighters comes from interest parties within the parliament and MenHan, not from the TNI-AU.

Thanks for the long and detailed reply. But all of these still don't answer our problem in purchasing U.S. made jets/missiles/parts.

Heck, even if we buy European jets like Rafale we might end up having the same problem as Egyptians had. Never mind Eurofighter.

 

[Indos]

Agreed, sooner or later people will realize that the person in question is plainly full of sh*t, because anyone who keep spinning things and spewing bullcr*p will eventually contradict themselves.

Any person with an ounce of intellect can see through the mumbo jumbo of hearsay and unsubstantiated "I heard from some guy in some position or office that this or that is true" that he kept spewing. The guy basically built his entire facade of supposed credentials around how he knows things because he's in the loop, had alleged connections with some vague brass or industry insiders, etc etc but all that he can show for it are (biased) opinions that suits certain agendas.

Sure, the guy may or may not had actual experience, but the habbit of spinning or skewing things to fit his agendas gets old REAL quick. People will soon notice this, no doubt about it.

He might have taken all of us for fools who will just swallow some hearsay news about the Harimau no question asked, but some of us actually followed the MMWT program closely enough to be able to tell the nonsense from the truth.

The more untruths came out from him, the easier it can be debunked and the faster he will get exposed. Cheers!

Yup, talking about Medium tank, there is already a document saying we have plan to acquire more than 100 of them. And if we see the time schedule, it shows it is the need for 2020-2024 period only.