Indonesia Defence Forum

[Gundala]

I think it's possible to be like an ally without the need to enter an alliance when facing common enemy

Thats right. We have been doing it from Soekarno era & Soeharto onward era. Heck even there was a book I read about our intellegence trained by Mossad. The downside is its going to be hard if not impossible to get our hands on advance US arsenal.

Both are nuisance and need to be spanked properly

Why not continue F-16V idea first then F-35 in the future? or the Rafale "rumor" is indeed true?

Nothing is certain up until now. Looking on how US secertary of defense plan to visit and urge us to buy US made military products doesnt come out of nowhere. They prolly already know that Prabowo is aiming big, and he wants to make sure US company take the large portions of it. If this the case then we might be seeing big military procurement soon and this time its going to be US vs Europe.

I do like the idea of having 48 Rafale and secure our airframe retirement timeline, or perhaps 32 F16V. Whichever is fine as long as our Pilot and technician being expose with latest AESA radar and other avionic suites. As long as it comes in big numbers, our Air force really need it.

As for F-35, Idk man. All I see is the thinking of getting only 4 of them, idk the reason behind it. But if we looking at the current queue production line in relation to delivery time then it may make sense.

 

[Nike]

Need helicopters which can be folded though , and look at manualy refuelling method? can they installed something like automatic refuelling tools in the ship?

 

[Alex898]

That's not even fanboying, that's just being realistic.

I completely agree. the thing is, what @Chestnut said is undeniable, most of our air force fleet is F16, hence the most realisitic thing to do is buy more US jets. besides, it can link with our radars and Navy ships. if things like this called fanboying, then pushing the deal for flanker even when:
1. Flanker maintenance is costly + you need to brought it to belarus to do the upgrade.
2. Flanker can do datalinks with our current flanker fleet, but cannot do that with our navy.
3. Flanker radar is still pesa ( Ironic, cause our president said we need to buy jets with relevan tech).
4. Flanker deal doesnt includes ToT and Russian gave us a hard time at barter scheme....
should be called worshipping !

 

[joesatriyono]

I completely agree. the thing is, what @Chestnut said is undeniable, most of our air force fleet is F16, hence the most realisitic thing to do is buy more US jets. besides, it can link with our radars and Navy ships. if things like this called fanboying, then pushing the deal for flanker even when:
1. Flanker maintenance is costly + you need to brought it to belarus to do the upgrade.
2. Flanker can do datalinks with our current flanker fleet, but cannot do that with our navy.
3. Flanker radar is still pesa ( Ironic, cause our president said we need to buy jets with relevan tech).
4. Flanker deal doesnt includes ToT and Russian gave us a hard time at barter scheme....
should be called worshipping !

well, it's because you saw it from wrong prespective brother. you miss the "situasi kebatinan" when we accuire those flankers, like, we all know the story, when our country busy fighting "rebels" then suddenly western powers see that it's wrong, against human rights, and drop sanction at the time when we need them most. i mean everyone in this country was piss off that time, like who's not? and then some aussie soldier caught in gunfight and killing our armed police. that's what give indo govt pretext to show to the westerners that indonesia had enough, then we buy flankers that at that time give indo some moral boost against "kesewenang-wenangan barat". and that's brother, how this story begin

nowadays this pretext are still exist, well, let's being honest why our relation with west are pretty much rough even when they offer lots of good stuff. the embargo pretext, but east do ever gave us embargo right? yes but not when we need "weapon", that was the time when we need to "clear" east influence. and then the motaain incident. and then the brant handshake. that's why we have difficulties when dealing with western stuff, the term "west" itself, or in another word "isu dagangan" eastern salesman

 

[Being-Art]

I completely agree. the thing is, what @Chestnut said is undeniable, most of our air force fleet is F16, hence the most realisitic thing to do is buy more US jets. besides, it can link with our radars and Navy ships. if things like this called fanboying, then pushing the deal for flanker even when:
1. Flanker maintenance is costly + you need to brought it to belarus to do the upgrade.
2. Flanker can do datalinks with our current flanker fleet, but cannot do that with our navy.
3. Flanker radar is still pesa ( Ironic, cause our president said we need to buy jets with relevan tech).
4. Flanker deal doesnt includes ToT and Russian gave us a hard time at barter scheme....
should be called worshipping !

Even more worrying from our Flanker is, we don't have an MRO, unlike the F-16 which has its own MRO (thanks for offset package), So we can do the Overhaul independently, and have been able to upgrade themselves even though they are a little helped by Lockheed Martin

And what is unfortunate in the acquisition of Flanker Previously, we did not buy a complete Flanker in a number at once (16 or 32 units in full package), but instead used a batch system, so that when the contract value is combined, the total purchase price of Indonesian Flanker is more expensive than the Malaysian Flanker contract (Malaysian got a betters Growlerski)

 

[Fl0gger]

realistic means like lets buy KFC Mcd etc ( i love big mack ) its Well known taste it good for u it well made healty and no.1 ingredient with good QC modern and cozy place's made in USA free wifi and entertain.have drive true etc. man who don't agrre with that....is stupid.

and dreaming it's like come buy our BFC its made localy not so modern for the taste..wel so..so place's again so so entertaimen .. ? yes but also NO for QC..idk man conclusion ...

enak beli dari pada bikin sendiri...dan beli lah dr yang ahli dlm membuat tutup ajah itu gerai lokal cukup beli di "kami" aman jelas enak dan terpercaya dan "kami" akan bersamamu bertahun..tahun kemudian...give ur money.... and eventualy siapa yang di untungkan dalam hal ini..?? you all know the answer.

well i hope my analogy is wrong regard

 

[Nike]

Marine frogskin pattern quite blending toward their enviroment

 

[Nike]

 

[Alex898]

well, it's because you saw it from wrong prespective brother. you miss the "situasi kebatinan" when we accuire those flankers, like, we all know the story, when our country busy fighting "rebels" then suddenly western powers see that it's wrong, against human rights, and drop sanction at the time when we need them most. i mean everyone in this country was piss off that time, like who's not? and then some aussie soldier caught in gunfight and killing our armed police. that's what give indo govt pretext to show to the westerners that indonesia had enough, then we buy flankers that at that time give indo some moral boost against "kesewenang-wenangan barat". and that's brother, how this story begin

nowadays this pretext are still exist, well, let's being honest why our relation with west are pretty much rough even when they offer lots of good stuff. the embargo pretext, but east do ever gave us embargo right? yes but not when we need "weapon", that was the time when we need to "clear" east influence. and then the motaain incident. and then the brant handshake. that's why we have difficulties when dealing with western stuff, the term "west" itself, or in another word "isu dagangan" eastern salesman

I dont think I saw it with wrong perspective. I just saw it from realistic perpective. and how is the embargo thing even relevant now, when China is poking us in Natuna, and they already has flankers, and when you suggested to buy US F18 or F15 to counter them, its called fanboying ?
If I saw this from wrong perspective, then I wonder what perspective seen by those people who said our immediate enemy is Aussie and S'pore even when the only one who's bothering us now is the giant from the north.

 

[Nike]

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[GraveDigger388]

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Marine frogskin pattern quite blending toward their enviroment

Good God... I like this camo a lot! I would rate it 2nd best looking, after Pararaider's.

 

[Gundala]

I dont think I saw it with wrong perspective. I just saw it from realistic perpective. and how is the embargo thing even relevant now, when China is poking us in Natuna, and they already has flankers, and when you suggested to buy US F18 or F15 to counter them, its called fanboying ?
If I saw this from wrong perspective, then I wonder what perspective seen by those people who said our immediate enemy is Aussie and S'pore even when the only one who's bothering us now is the giant from the north.

Perhaps you need to see what Chestnut previous posts to understand why I said that. The context its not just EF vs F15/18 tho I am fine with whatever we going to choose, I even dream that somehow we manage to get our hands on F15EX. So no, Im not saying he is fanboy but in other word he prolly need to chill abit when talking about US.

Aussie & S'pore? Prolly what they are trying to say is becareful or keep an eye of those 2. Sometime words get lost along the way. We had some unpleasant encounter with them back then, to name a few; S'Pore once lobby US about our intention to buy advance weapon from US and ask them to reject it (before internet era). S'Pore rejected to give our FIR back and even lobby Malaysia to reject our membership registration with ICAO. Our TNI AU has been filing a complain on how their fighter have to ask Sing permit to patrol even scrambled to Natuna

Aussie; well its been a wild ride with them, thats prolly why they ask for 2k+ US marines to be stationed in Darwin. But we can google our up and down relation, also Australia was a supporter of Timor leste independency before.

Relation with current LCS condition? Sure Sing, Aussie and Indonesia can and must work together to stabilize the region. But it prolly wise if we doing it with our eyes wide open and make sure there are no udang dibalik batu. I am sure our govt know this.

There other things that cant be said out in the public. Thats one of the reason why Ibu Retno "Ngomel" to China and prolly consider their act as kurang ajar but later toned down by Pak Mahfud after he coordinate internally. There are also some lobby and "shadow" move by US/Aussie/Sing sides that can make us geleng-geleng kepala even menggerutu.
But they all do it because of they want to pursue their National interest, and in this case so must Indonesia. What Im trying to say is put our own National interest first and take precaution, because there is no such a thing as "Best Friend" between nations, it all about protecting National interest.

 

[joesatriyono]

I dont think I saw it with wrong perspective. I just saw it from realistic perpective. and how is the embargo thing even relevant now, when China is poking us in Natuna, and they already has flankers, and when you suggested to buy US F18 or F15 to counter them, its called fanboying ?
If I saw this from wrong perspective, then I wonder what perspective seen by those people who said our immediate enemy is Aussie and S'pore even when the only one who's bothering us now is the giant from the north.

whoa whoa relax bung, i don't call you fan boy, nobody did that. i just answering your question on why we get flankers at the first place. while you said that flankers are big loss from the technical and economical perspective, well i just said that you looking in wrong area, we acquire flankers for geopolitical and parity issue, the reason? i already explained. And that's should also explain on why SU-35 are the first name that appear when F-5 retired, because obviously this ska 14 are facing aussie, not natuna.

and if you wondering what prespective that keeps people "ignoring" china, that's perspective called history, a pain full history. yes, the main threat now are china, but this is real world, you need to wining hearts and minds of the people on whatever you want to do, that's where propaganda played. you can have sophisticated fighter jet, but if you cannot wining hearts and minds if the people that's no use.

and so far bung, the eastern "fanboys" are winning here, their propaganda strategy keeps us from acquire a replacement for fighter jets that already retired 4 years ago.

 

[Nike]

What the hell, what can Su 35 offer to Indonesian Air Force right now? PESA radar? uncommonality with our Air Defense system? rather high price cost? un existent MRO facility? from this point alone Su 35 deal is bullshit.

And oh China already know by the nook and cranny about Su 35 and made indigenous improvement over them

 

[Nilgiri]

What the hell, what can Su 35 offer to Indonesian Air Force right now? PESA radar? uncommonality with our Air Defense system? rather high price cost? un existent MRO facility? from this point alone Su 35 deal is bullshit.

And oh China already know by the nook and cranny about Su 35 and made indigenous improvement over them

As far as possible, INA should stay away from Russian stuff for the high-level system stuff. Basic munition and small arms etc, are fine.

Trust me on this one....INA will be far far stronger doing that. You are very right you need to acquire what your most likely opponents have least chance or no chance of getting at any scale deployed to figure them out etc.