Indonesia Defence Forum

[ardezzo]

Enemy can make invasion or even amphibious assault anytime time with their large ship, day and night, even with stormy/ bad weather at sea which can make sea level increase significanly, without proper all weather ships can take sea denial at sea, we Will just waiting in coastline?

Enemy Will not pick a calm good weather to attack, they Will attack when we are not capable dealing with rough weather

Big ship like like iver or even bigger ship can sail in sea state 5+ you should looks for footage on YouTube, i doubt small ship like kcr wil survive through big wave like big ship do

those who are wishing for the navy to stick with smaller ship completely forgotten about how our navy having hard time with bad weather during their AirAsia search/rescue mission, while US & JMSDF destroyers don't have such problems. And that happened at Java Sea, not our ZEE.

 

[umigami]

Terungkap, Luhut-Prabowo Bahas Rare Earth untuk Bikin Senjata

 

[Raduga]

Terungkap, Luhut-Prabowo Bahas Rare Earth untuk Bikin Senjata

another overreacted headlines , even in the article luhut never said to use it as weapon .

 

[Nike]

from DISPENAU

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

another overreacted headlines , even in the article luhut never said to use it as weapon .

What about our RAM (stealth paint) technology? Which are also made using rare earth material.

Stealth Paint

Jumain was impressed with the stealth technology used on the Navy patrol boat, but said it still needs improvement. For a vessel to have full stealth capabilities, it must be specially designed for that purpose from the ground up, so its stern can be painted with the radar-absorbent material. The ship's location will still be known if its radar reflector is switched on.

The stealth paint, on the other hand, has shown promising potential.

"The trial went quite well; [the paint] can be mass-produced in the future. Regarding mass production, we will discuss it with Sigma Utama and the Indonesian Navy. The [radar-absorbent] paint cannot be made and sold by just anyone. It will be dangerous if smugglers start using it on their boats," Jumain said.

Wisnu Ari Adi, a researcher at Batan's Center for Science and Advanced Material Technology (PSTBM), said the paint is the result of processing monazite sand into rare-earth materials.

A prototype of the paint was first tested, to great effect, in 2017. It was undetectable to X-band radars, which operate at a frequency of between 8 and 2 gigahertz.

Wisnu said only a few developed countries have stealth technology in their arsenals.

"This is a technology that can absorb radar waves at certain frequencies. It is only in possession of developed countries and cannot be used commercially, because it is a highly strategic material and crucial for a country's defense," he said.

The researcher added that the radar-absorbent material is highly advanced, and that its properties can only be tested using nuclear technology.

"In Southeast Asia, only Batan is capable of testing materials using neutron-beam technology. The test is able to illustrate various magnetic and electrical interactions in the material," he said.

https://jakartaglobe.id/news/indonesia-advances-in-military-stealth-technology/

 

[NEKONEKO]

View attachment 643732 View attachment 643733 View attachment 643734
from DISPENAU

They got good PR dept. especially the airmin, they also start to have 6their own youtube channel.
I guess the millennials already starting to take over the previous generation.

 

[Raduga]

What about our RAM (stealth paint) technology? Which are also made using rare earth material.

Stealth Paint

Jumain was impressed with the stealth technology used on the Navy patrol boat, but said it still needs improvement. For a vessel to have full stealth capabilities, it must be specially designed for that purpose from the ground up, so its stern can be painted with the radar-absorbent material. The ship's location will still be known if its radar reflector is switched on.

The stealth paint, on the other hand, has shown promising potential.

"The trial went quite well; [the paint] can be mass-produced in the future. Regarding mass production, we will discuss it with Sigma Utama and the Indonesian Navy. The [radar-absorbent] paint cannot be made and sold by just anyone. It will be dangerous if smugglers start using it on their boats," Jumain said.

Wisnu Ari Adi, a researcher at Batan's Center for Science and Advanced Material Technology (PSTBM), said the paint is the result of processing monazite sand into rare-earth materials.

A prototype of the paint was first tested, to great effect, in 2017. It was undetectable to X-band radars, which operate at a frequency of between 8 and 2 gigahertz.

Wisnu said only a few developed countries have stealth technology in their arsenals.

"This is a technology that can absorb radar waves at certain frequencies. It is only in possession of developed countries and cannot be used commercially, because it is a highly strategic material and crucial for a country's defense," he said.

The researcher added that the radar-absorbent material is highly advanced, and that its properties can only be tested using nuclear technology.

"In Southeast Asia, only Batan is capable of testing materials using neutron-beam technology. The test is able to illustrate various magnetic and electrical interactions in the material," he said.

https://jakartaglobe.id/news/indonesia-advances-in-military-stealth-technology/

lets hope they're not becoming another 1000 prototype this country made .
based on this PDF
http://litbang.kemenperin.go.id/jkgi/issue/download/651/pdf_9

They are trying to experimented to change Ferrite on common Radar Absorbent material/paint by substituting it with Dy (Dysprosium)

 

[Ruhnama]

View attachment 643732 View attachment 643733 View attachment 643734
from DISPENAU

Boleh uga. (Her id number shown in last photo)

Btw, are it is true our iver didnt have stanflex modul. So how? This ship not modular, the wepon not flexible ?

In Southeast Asia

In some field maybe we are the first or only (like wind tunnel) also have many innovative idea but ironic is likely we walk slowly and other coutry in SEA already have advanced like VN in missile (licensed form russ) also radar (their communication firm make radar) also Spore with their st kinetic etc... (belakangan muncul org2 kita sndiri yg ga suka berbau chauvinis klikbait akhirnya kynya "malu" sama org2 luar akirnya jd ya lama2 mrk "mempertanyakan" kemampuan indhan dan tni)
Curhat dkit bro

 

[Gundala]

And why not Indonesia must not follow the (obvious capability to have) to acquire ocean going capable warship in category of heavy Frigates and Destroyer, in the past Indonesia had acquired such capability as we are known have to secure large array of Islands in which the ocean between the scaterred Islands is much much large than Mediterania seas or Baltic seas. And the reason why Indonesia revert back ocean going Navy policy is very very much to do with politics situation at home in which Soeharto largely only interested to secure his throne at home compared to build a credible Navy.

And now, Indonesia largest security threat aside from terrorist and armed gangs is China with their blue water Navy aspired Navy and their large number of ocean going OPV in which most larger than Indonesia current Naval vessels, and their playing ground for their salamy tactics harrasment is just north of Natuna in which are open seas areas.

Btw i am not a believer of KCR and Missiles equipped swarm boats tactics, Iraq War had prove a bloody lessons for all of us, Destroyer with organic ASW/ASuW capability helicopters equipped with air to surface Missiles capable to engage poorly defended Missiles armed boats from save distance. And too with their better sensor and Command control system and array of electronic warfare suite, a Destroyer is capable to give such swarm boats tactics a run for money as they Will directed their helicopters and other air asset in the area to twarth such threat from long distance.

And KCR and other boats still needed base to run their operation, base to store their logistic units and weapons system (Missiles) R&R for their crew, and usually the facility needed is almost at the same level of where to run larger combatant warships like corvettes and light Frigates this very redundant with what they intend for

I never said we must not follow ocean going capable warship such as heavy frigate & destroyer, that would be foolish. AFAIK we are building our power base on 3 layer of defence which include Pesisir pantai - Territorial - Teritorial sampai EEZ that can be trasnlated as Brown-Green-Blue water naval power capability. So by saying we dont need heavy frigate means that we dont follow our own strategy/doctrine. The way I see it, our Navy going to strengthen the brown while developing the green as well. But as the SCS tension escalate we are pushing the Iver forward and pending the Sigma on second. Its all about prioritizing right?

KCR/Swarm boat tactics; Iraq is different battleground, its an open water battle. KCR wasnt design for that purpose, its more about brown water with green water capability and having thousands of small islands around. With its small size inside archipelagic state like us that consist 17k+ Islands it sure has a place in Naval tactic. But counting them heading one on one with a destroyer would be a silly move or thinking. Is it going to be effective? We dont know, Indonesia one the the largest archipelagic state and have more islands than the others. As long as there isnt any modern war within our border, no military strategyst can say which tactics/strategy are best for our Nation. We can only assume and play with multiple scenario.

Yea KCR and Destroyer need to refuel/rearm. But how many pelabuhan we have that can handle destroyer? How many that can handle our 60m KCR? How long they can stay hidden/camoflage before the satelite saw them? and the list goes on. Both are there to serve different purpose and both are also needed in terms of naval defence.

Enemy can make invasion or even amphibious assault anytime time with their large ship, day and night, even with stormy/ bad weather at sea which can make sea level increase significanly, without proper all weather ships can take sea denial at sea, we Will just waiting in coastline?

Enemy Will not pick a calm good weather to attack, they Will attack when we are not capable dealing with rough weather

Big ship like like iver or even bigger ship can sail in sea state 5+ you should looks for footage on YouTube, i doubt small ship like kcr wil survive through big wave like big ship do

Pretty much the same point as what nike said. Looks like somehow I giving the impression that I disagree with us having heavy frigate/destroyer well Im not. I was saying that overall purchase trend of the world navy in reply to chestnut.

 

[Nike]

I never said we must not follow ocean going capable warship such as heavy frigate & destroyer, that would be foolish. AFAIK we are building our power base on 3 layer of defence which include Pesisir pantai - Territorial - Teritorial sampai EEZ that can be trasnlated as Brown-Green-Blue water naval power capability. So by saying we dont need heavy frigate means that we dont follow our own strategy/doctrine. The way I see it, our Navy going to strengthen the brown while developing the green as well. But as the SCS tension escalate we are pushing the Iver forward and pending the Sigma on second. Its all about prioritizing right?

KCR/Swarm boat tactics; Iraq is different battleground, its an open water battle. KCR wasnt design for that purpose, its more about brown water with green water capability and having thousands of small islands around. With its small size inside archipelagic state like us that consist 17k+ Islands it sure has a place in Naval tactic. But counting them heading one on one with a destroyer would be a silly move or thinking. Is it going to be effective? We dont know, Indonesia one the the largest archipelagic state and have more islands than the others. As long as there isnt any modern war within our border, no military strategyst can say which tactics/strategy are best for our Nation. We can only assume and play with multiple scenario.

Yea KCR and Destroyer need to refuel/rearm. But how many pelabuhan we have that can handle destroyer? How many that can handle our 60m KCR? How long they can stay hidden/camoflage before the satelite saw them? and the list goes on. Both are there to serve different purpose and both are also needed in terms of naval defence.




Pretty much the same point as what nike said. Looks like somehow I giving the impression that I disagree with us having heavy frigate/destroyer well Im not. I was saying that overall purchase trend of the world navy in reply to chestnut.

Seems you know nothing about the engagement at Bubiyan nor the terrain around that water, the Iraqi Navy being hunted down by Royal Navy around Bubiyan island and the area is such marshland and swampy water. But the superior system of Royal Navy can detect such boats and capable to intercept Silkworm missile using sea darter

 

[NEKONEKO]

Regarding our future heavy frigate that is rumored to have mica, and cause quite a buzz.
The trend of battle that the ship will face would be a low flying sea skimming missile attack (not talking about under water threat for now), the radar detection range will be limited to the horizon against such attack and if the target have low RCS the detection range will be decreased even further.
Long range surface to air missile will be useless to defend the ship against target that is detected too close to the ship because of their minimum range of engagement that is too big. Lets say that SM2 have operational range of (74? to 167 km), ESSM ( ? - 50km) IMO ESSM will be more useful on such attack scenario even though SM2 already got upgrade to engage low altitude targets. Inb4 yes will be great if we can get SM2, and no I am not against SM2, SM2 is good on their own.

Smart-S radar detection performance of small missile is around 50 km, TRS 4D limited to horizon. :v

Looking at the Type-31 frigate armed with sea ceptor, Could be that the brits is looking way ahead and they know what they are doing.

Don't you think that ESSM, Mica, Sea ceptor, even RAM is the true backbone SAM against sea skimming missile?
For me the rumor about the short range SAM (mica) is not really a nightmare (while the others is losing their mind because of it) because like what the other member have said there is a possibility to upgrade the weapons latter, I am just curious about the performance tho between mica, sea ceptor and ESSM which one is the best.
*engagement success rate

 

[SgtGungHo]

Don't you think that ESSM, Mica, Sea ceptor, even RAM is the true backbone SAM against sea skimming missile?
For me the rumor about the short range SAM (mica) is not really a nightmare (while the others is losing their mind because of it) because like what the other member have said there is a possibility to upgrade the weapons latter, I am just curious about the performance tho between mica, sea ceptor and ESSM which one is the best.

Depends on which Mica you are talking about, but probably ESSM.

 

[Being-Art]

Seems you know nothing about the engagement at Bubiyan nor the terrain around that water, the Iraqi Navy being hunted down by Royal Navy around Bubiyan island and the area is such marshland and swampy water. But the superior system of Royal Navy can detect such boats and capable to intercept Silkworm missile using sea darter

Actually Sea Dart also has a range that's not much different than SM-2

 

[Ruhnama]

Regarding our future heavy frigate that is rumored to have mica, and cause quite a buzz.
The trend of battle that the ship will face would be a low flying sea skimming missile attack (not talking about under water threat for now), the radar detection range will be limited to the horizon against such attack and if the target have low RCS the detection range will be decreased even further.
Long range surface to air missile will be useless to defend the ship against target that is detected too close to the ship because of their minimum range of engagement that is too big. Lets say that SM2 have operational range of (74? to 167 km), ESSM ( ? - 50km) IMO ESSM will be more useful on such attack scenario even though SM2 already got upgrade to engage low altitude targets. Inb4 yes will be great if we can get SM2, and no I am not against SM2, SM2 is good on their own.

Smart-S radar detection performance of small missile is around 50 km, TRS 4D limited to horizon. :v

Looking at the Type-31 frigate armed with sea ceptor, Could be that the brits is looking way ahead and they know what they are doing.

Don't you think that ESSM, Mica, Sea ceptor, even RAM is the true backbone SAM against sea skimming missile?
For me the rumor about the short range SAM (mica) is not really a nightmare (while the others is losing their mind because of it) because like what the other member have said there is a possibility to upgrade the weapons latter, I am just curious about the performance tho between mica, sea ceptor and ESSM which one is the best.
*engagement success rate

Maybe LRSAM for ABM capability or defendibg against incoming aircrft before they launch missile?

 

[Raduga]

Maybe LRSAM for ABM capability or defendibg against incoming aircrft before they launch missile?

this , sea skimming missile are more suspectible to coastal based/surface launch rather than air launched , also LRSAM like SM-2 , Aster-30 block 2 , barak LRAD are useful if the northern neighbour decide to use their dongfeng series to maul our ship .

maybe the best summary is to stick with layered air defense , with point defense > medium range > long range setup .