Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

The F16 is already confirmed but Jakarta is a little bit swayed with F35, Iver is very likely almost done deal, survey ship budget already approved, all acquisition mentioned is the one that very likely to happen, so ... they did mention about chinook ... even herky didn't make it to the article.

I dont think F 16 is already confirmed. I believe that westerner writer just read our news talking about previous Air Force commander plan to buy 32 F16. I believe the plan hasnt been approved by Minister of Defense office. Prabowo only said about budget for fighter without mentioning the detail and it IMO most probably about filling previous F5 squadron and maybe also KFX/IFX R&D budget. So about F5 squadron it is between SU35 and F35. And since the news was written before Covid 19 outbreak, so all of the things which are written there are still not fixed and most probably changed into domestic equipment procurement to help the economy. We also have new Air Force commander now.

It's confirmed, not allowed to show it but the budget has already been set aside. What's not confirmed is the Su 35.

 

[Indos]

Funny, because this came from Airforce itselfView attachment 640436

As I said previously, Air Force may propose the procurement, but the final decision will be made by Ministry of Defense. There is also President and parliament. IMO 32 F16 Block 70 is not necessary. We should wait KFX/IFX to replace 32 Hawk. It is why the more urgent replacement of F5 is the one that I believe will be executed during Jokowi second administration and it is between SU35 and F35 as revealed by Defense Minister Deputy and currently waiting President selection and approval.

 

[Chestnut]

As I said previously, Air Force may propose the procurement, but the final decision will be made by Ministry of Defense. There is also President and parliament. IMO 32 F16 Block 70 is not necessary. We should wait KFX/IFX to replace 32 Hawk. It is why the more urgent replacement of F5 is the one that I believe will be executed during Jokowi second administration and it is between SU35 and F35 as revealed by Defense Minister Deputy and currently waiting President selection and approval.

The government is likely going to pull out of the KFX program, and honestly we should stop pursuing prestige projects and go for more realistic procurement programs. The reality is that the 32 Vipers ARE needed because the one thing that the Air Force lacks right now is sortie generation. Even if the government stays on the KFX program it would likely be in the 2040's until we see the first service aircraft flying. I highly doubt anything but a prototype would fly in the 2030's. Are we willing to wait that long before we procure new airframes?

 

[Raduga]

i just stroll internet and found this plakat of PT.Sinar Kokoh Persada indonesia and OMT with iver huitfeldt class on it .....
what was the role of PT.Sinar Kokoh Persada ??

 

[Indos]

The government is likely going to pull out of the KFX program, and honestly we should stop pursuing prestige projects and go for more realistic procurement programs. The reality is that the 32 Vipers ARE needed because the one thing that the Air Force lacks right now is sortie generation. Even if the government stays on the KFX program it would likely be in the 2040's until we see the first service aircraft flying. I highly doubt anything but a prototype would fly in the 2030's. Are we willing to wait that long before we procure new airframes?

We dont know yet what will be the result of the renegotiation, better wait for further information. And about pulling out from KFX/IFX program, the government will have already done that in June 2018 if that is the case. The decision that is made at that crucial time is to stay inside the program while doing renegotiation.

The funny thing is that one of the main reason of current government decision to renegotiate is because of the financial problem to finance the R&D and buy 50 planes. And now we will replace this long term project that is started in 2010 and currently already under prototyping phase for the sake of buying 32 F16 Viper because we need to replace 32 Hawks that were just being bought in 1998-2003 ?

I think it is stupid and if it is true the decision might come from salesmen and kick back point of view and not base on long term vision and national interest to be independence in defense procurement someday. I know we are not going to make our fighter planes completely, but this program is the starting point. As proverb said: "The journey of 1000 miles begins with one step." We should not sacrifice our long term goal for our short term need/desire.

There is also moral principle that we should hold when we make join development in a long term program with another country. Fail to hold this principle than we may not be trusted again in the future. It could even effect South Korea investment in our country.

Previous Air Force commander has clearly said the reason to buy F16 Viper is to replace our Hawk squadron.

How can you say that first prototype will fly in 2030's ? I bet you dont follow the news that say the program has been already in prototyping phase and one the engine for first prototype have also been delivered to South Korea. So far the program progress has shown that it is quite match with the previous plan that were made in 2015 when it is officially started. (Previous years is technology development phase 2010-2014).

If there is a doubt about KFX/IFX program, at least we should wait until 2024. The progress during that period can be a good assessment whether the program will finish as plan or not.

 

[Gen3115]

i just stroll internet and found this plakat of PT.Sinar Kokoh Persada indonesia and OMT with iver huitfeldt class on it .....
what was the role of PT.Sinar Kokoh Persada ??

View attachment 640485

Probably the company that acts as the broker

 

[Alex898]

i just stroll internet and found this plakat of PT.Sinar Kokoh Persada indonesia and OMT with iver huitfeldt class on it .....
what was the role of PT.Sinar Kokoh Persada ??

View attachment 640485

based on the description on their website, this company probably will handle the management of the project ( to make sure the project finished on schedule, and things like that). the website says that the company has partnership with OMT, and also has MoD, TNI AU, AL, and AD as their customer.

 

[Chestnut]

We dont know yet what will be the result of the renegotiation, better wait for further information. And about pulling out from KFX/IFX program, the government will have already done that in June 2018 if that is the case. The decision that is made at that crucial time is to stay inside the program while doing renegotiation.

The funny thing is that one of the main reason of current government decision to renegotiate is because of the financial problem to finance the R&D and buy 50 planes. And now we will replace this long term project that is started in 2010 and currently already under prototyping phase for the sake of buying 32 F16 Viper because we need to replace 32 Hawks that were just being bought in 1998-2003 ?

I think it is stupid and if it is true the decision might come from salesmen and kick back point of view and not base on long term vision and national interest to be independence in defense procurement someday. I know we are not going to make our fighter planes completely, but this program is the starting point. As proverb said: "The journey of 1000 miles begins with one step." We should not sacrifice our long term goal for our short term need/desire.

There is also moral principle that we should hold when we make join development in a long term program with another country. Fail to hold this principle than we may not be trusted again in the future. It could even effect South Korea investment in our country.

Previous Air Force commander has clearly said the reason to buy F16 Viper is to replace our Hawk squadron.

How can you say that first prototype will fly in 2030's ? I bet you dont follow the news that say the program has been already in prototyping phase and one the engine for first prototype have also been delivered to South Korea. So far the program progress has shown that it is quite match with the previous plan that were made in 2015 when it is officially started. (Previous years is technology development phase 2010-2014).

If there is a doubt about KFX/IFX program, at least we should wait until 2024. The progress during that period can be a good assessment whether the program will finish as plan or not.

Considering how many delays the F-35 program has had, what you said about the KFX is just wishful thinking at this point. It's not easy designing and building a fighter aircraft, let alone a 5th gen one, without major US assistance.

And yes, we do have to replace the Hawks as they are sorely outdated at this point. Like it or not, the government (with good reason) sees more sense in procuring more F-16's then waiting 15-20 years for a fighter that may or may not end up in our inventory. Regardless of what people say about salespeople or saying that I'm a salesman, my professional background is in defense. And it is my (and a lot of other defense professional's opinion) that to wait 15+ years for something that is sorely needed now (because newsflash, our neighbor to the north is not going to wait) all for the sake of national prestige is asinine.

Moral principles also have no place in defense. I don't know if you realize but these things happen all the time, and no one genuinely cares. Look at Canada, they were part of the F-35 program (and a higher tier partner than Singapore and Israel) but do you see them being operated by the RCAF? At the end of the day we're talking about weapons, there's no morality in it. And to say that it would affect private South Korean investment is laughable, why would private investors care about a defense deal between 2 governments? It would hardly affect their profits at the end of the day.

What you're going to see is articles like this, https://www.indomiliter.com/indones...ngsuran-proyek-jet-tempur-kfx-ifx/#more-74238, things such as the government blaming other factors into their inability to pay for the KFX costs. The government is not going to openly admit their pulling out, much like how they're not going to admit that they're cancelling the Su 35 procurement. It's all face. They're going to keep dragging their knuckles until they either find an acceptable cover for pulling out, or it drags on long enough that the other party complains and cancels the deal. Welcome to Realpolitik.

 

[Kansel]

Well said

 

[Brainsucker]

I dont think F 16 is already confirmed. I believe that westerner writer just read our news talking about previous Air Force commander plan to buy 32 F16. I believe the plan hasnt been approved by Minister of Defense office. Prabowo only said about budget for fighter without mentioning the detail and it IMO most probably about filling previous F5 squadron and maybe also KFX/IFX R&D budget. So about F5 squadron it is between SU35 and F35. And since the news was written before Covid 19 outbreak, so all of the things which are written there are still not fixed and most probably changed into domestic equipment procurement to help the economy. We also have new Air Force commander now.

Are you saying that those 32 F-16 still not final? I thought they have been confirmed and we just wait the fighters to come. Oh maybe Covid 19 changed everything and cancel the previous plan?

 

[Indos]

Are you saying that those 32 F-16 still not final? I thought they have been confirmed and we just wait the fighters to come. Oh maybe Covid 19 changed everything and cancel the previous plan?

That is the plan by Air Force. How can people say they are already in the budget ? There is still Minister of Defense, President, Finance Minister, and even Parliament that will either approve, delay, or change the plan. And particularly due to Covid 19 economic effect, I predict we are going to prioritize the navy procurement since it highly involves our defense industry, thus let more money to be circulated inside our economy and develop our defense industry further while waiting for KFX/IFX to reach mass manufacturing phase in 2026 inshaAllah.

Similar thing also happen in India Air Force procurement lately, despite intense pressure coming from China and Pakistan, they now decide to push their local fighter program (Tejas Mark1, Tejas Mark2, AMCA) and scrap MRCA program which want to induct foreign fighters like F16/F18/Rafale and others.

Beside that, I doubt all of the equipment being put on that plan that we saw in the previous page will be realized in Jokowi final term. By seing Jokowi defense acquisition realization in his first term, we should raise huge doubt on it, almost all the equipment we get in his first term are from SBY previous contracts.

The Air Force acquisition that I believe can still be executed in the period of 2020-2024 is the replacement of F 5 squadron since the contract that has been signed although not yet effective. There is plan to replace SU35 with F35 though, but President is the one who will decide.

 

[Alex898]

Similar thing also happen in India Air Force procurement lately, despite intense pressure coming from China and Pakistan, they now decide to push their local fighter program (Tejas Mark1, Tejas Mark2, AMCA) and scrap MRCA program which want to induct foreign fighters like F16/F18/Rafale and others.

its not like I disagree with KFX being continued, but I dont think that Indian Tejas and KFX were a similar case. I mean, when India decide to choose Tejas instead of buying from another country, Tejas was already flying. In fact IIRC, Tejas even already being tested by Indian Air Force for a long time. its different from KFX case. If we choose to wait for KFX, then we would wait until 2026 ( first fighter to be manufactured), so at least we need to wait till 2030 (not considering there would be any problem discovered on the prototype or on the test).

so I kinda agree with KSAU plan to buy Viper, beside it has commonality with the fighter we already have.

 

[Chestnut]

its not like I disagree with KFX being continued, but I dont think that Indian Tejas and KFX were a similar case. I mean, when India decide to choose Tejas instead of buying from another country, Tejas was already flying. In fact IIRC, Tejas even already being tested by Indian Air Force for a long time. its different from KFX case. If we choose to wait for KFX, then we would wait until 2026 ( first fighter to be manufactured), so at least we need to wait till 2030 (not considering there would be any problem discovered on the prototype or on the test).

so I kinda agree with KSAU plan to buy Viper, beside it has commonality with the fighter we already have.

You're going to wait a lot longer than 2026 for the first jet. Delays is an inevitability when it comes to producing something as complex as a fighter jet.

 

[san.geuk]

With current situation in north natuna waiting for 2026 Will be to long for us , i think best way we buy a readystok arsenal that's suits in our budget and our docrine

 

[Indos]

its not like I disagree with KFX being continued, but I dont think that Indian Tejas and KFX were a similar case. I mean, when India decide to choose Tejas instead of buying from another country, Tejas was already flying. IIRC, Tejas even already being tested by Indian Air Force. its different from KFX case. If we choose to wait for KFX, then we would wait until 2026 ( first fighter to be manufactured), so at least we need to wait till 2030 (not considering there would be any problem discovered on the prototype or on the test).

so I kinda agree with KSAU plan to buy Viper, beside it has commonality with the fighter we already have.

You cannot both have KFX and F 16 V simultaneously due to our budget constrain. We must choose one. If we buy F16 V it means the allocation for KFX/IFX is reduced significantly, and thus it will lead to our side abandoning KFX/IFX program. This is very crucial time for KFX/IFX program. Even, I also feel we should delay F5 procurement if government still feel difficult to pay 2 billion USD R&D for KFX/IFX program until 2026.

Not only India prefer to build more Tejas Mark1, but they have Tejas Mark2 that now have become Medium Weight Fighter and the modification itself need them to build the prototype for testing. And since MRCA program has been scrapped, they even now have Orca program to make double engine Tejas and several modification. And not mentioning their AMCA 5 generation program. All of that program are being developed alone by India. Even Indonesia who only participate as junior partner in KFX/IFX program with only 20 % financial contribution still get difficulty to continue the program.

No, you have wrong information. First KFX/IFX fighter prototype to be rolled out is before middle 2021 inshaAllah, as current first prototype has already been manufactured and the engine has also been arrived. Better you look on my KFX/IFX thread to get more information about it.

2022-2025 test flight. 2026 mass production. That is the plan. And currently the first prototype is already being made with completion base on plan is in the middle of 2021.