Indonesia Defence Forum

[Reashot Xigwin]

No, my friend, you need to put more on the poker table.

with 800 heavy tanks, you could start an ground invasion of Malaysia. I think your armed forces in 10 years can conquer Malaysia. the long time frame is needed to prepare an invasion. look at the historial invasions and considering you are not ready yet. however, to invade indochinese mainlaind (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Burma), you need more. I guess 5,000 heavy tanks at least and 5,000 other armored vehicles. Vietnam ground force alone has more than 2,000 heavy tanks and many 1,000s other armored vehicles. Surely, these assets are not modern, but still pose a high challenge for a hostile invasion force.

to successfully land on enemy shores (for example Vietnam), you need superiority in sea and arial theaters. you practically need at least the size of the chinese combined naval fleet and the power of japanese airforces.

I don´t take Singapore modern armed forces into the consideration.

all just a theoretical thought in case, Indonesia has territorial ambition and wants to become the boss of SE Asia

If we did go to war with Vietnam we only need to force the Vietnamese government to surrender by precision strike & arm the pro-democracy forces on Vietnam as our "ground forces."

No need for an actual ground invasion when we only need to strike at your weakness. Even Singapore can "destroy" Vietnam easily.

This is all just theoretical of course.

 

[Viet]

Our main doctrine of defence since Independence day is called HANKAMRATA the Total War Defense participation of military, civilian combantant and non combatants.
Its a doctrine based on the worst case scenario where our regular army and all our main military equipment are crippled and overruns by the invaders. We developed system that even when the invaders hold our capital and major cities, our government still ruled and able to conduct mass guerrilla warfare in all our territory. Just like during the independence war situation when our leaders are taking captive by the Dutch and Allied military, the rest of the army blended and mixed with local militias conducting seperated military uprising and guerrilla warfare all across our vast archipelago. Different tribes, ethnic but still fight under the same banners and not fall into disintegration.
This doctrines developed to prepared us to fight against superior external forces (such as the superpower nations).
Our soldiers are trained in modern methods of fighting and accustomed to operate modern weapons and technology, but they can easily switched to fight as guerrilla forces.
Thats why the majority of our army organization based on battalion level, not division or brigade level. This is to make it easier to operates in guerrilla warfares.
Only Kostrad and the Marine Corps organized in Division level,but all territorial army are fashioned in battalion level.

if true then you have similar tactic and warfare to what Vietnam adopts
Vietnam army used to organise in 3-man group. any unit can operate independently from other units and has a special task. many units form a large unit and so on...to division and army group.

 

[Jakartans@PkDef]

if true then you have similar tactic and warfare to what Vietnam adopts
Vietnam army used to organise in 3-man group. any unit can operate independently from other units and has a special task. many units form a large unit and so on...to division and army group.

Indonesian and Vietnamese people shared a history of western colonialism. Among ASEAN nation, maybe only Indonesia and Vietnam fought for their own independence by driving out western forces through fighting. Our brave Filipino brothers choose to fight alongside their ex-colonial master (USA) in fighting off the Japanese while the Malaysian have their country divided and created by the British. Thats why we have similar doctrine in our main defense strategy, especially in warfare.
In Indonesia we have territorial army in battalion levels and two main striking force which is two full division of The Army Strategic Command (KOSTRAD) and two full division of Marine Corps (Both will be expanded into 3 Division).

 

[Jakartans@PkDef]

to put our army blended with Civilian in our territory itself has a meaning of throwing up our people into the fight, and it means the enemy has every rights to burn and destroying any Civilian facility to reduce our capability to put a struggle.
That's why US can inflict horrendous casualties among Vietnamese civilian in Vietnam war. I am very against to put one of our layer defense strategy into Hankamrata scenario.

Yes, and thats why US LOSE THE WAR.
Because there are no foreign conventional forces can defeat well supported guerrilla forces.
And no guerrilla forces can survive without the support of local people.
The doctrine applies when Indonesia is attacked by superior nation such as US.
You are delusional if you think TNI can survive an open war against US using convensional tactics and strategy.
Our main weapons, munition stockpiles and logistic supply can only last 2 or 3 weeks in all out war against Superpower like US.
IF We are going to war against US (in which Australia will definitely take part), all our Fighters, Navy Ships and main strike force such as Kostrad and Marine Corps can only last 2 or 3 weeks.
After that there are only 2 option for our government : 1 surrender, 2 waging a guerrilla warfare.
The 1st option is never and option in our military doctrines.
Thats why we have the HANKAMRATA doctrine.
Which is switching our active military resources from conventional warfare itu guerrilla warfare.
Speak about guerrilla warfare, the main element / vital element was the participation and support of local civilians in many forms, from clandestine to active combatants.
Do you think we can achieve peace in ACEH with our military might only? nope, we achieve with peace resolution.
If we relying in military operation, our army would still fighting in Aceh right now because the separatist got civilian and local supports.
When our nation is under attack and invaded by foreign power, its the duty of all to participate in the fight.
In HANKAMRATA, all Indonesian must take part according to their roles. From active combatants, clandestine operatives, farmers to help the logistic, etc.
Thats why i said before that the HANKAMRATA doctrine are prepared for the worst case scenario when all our conventional forces and tactics are defeated.
But if we are get into limited conflicts or get into war with country such as Malaysia, etc we still can depends on our conventional forces and tactics.

 

[Viet]

Indonesian and Vietnamese people shared a history of western colonialism. Among ASEAN nation, maybe only Indonesia and Vietnam fought for their own independence by driving out western forces through fighting. Our brave Filipino brothers choose to fight alongside their ex-colonial master (USA) in fighting off the Japanese while the Malaysian have their country divided and created by the British. Thats why we have similar doctrine in our main defense strategy, especially in warfare.
In Indonesia we have territorial army in battalion levels and two main striking force which is two full division of The Army Strategic Command (KOSTRAD) and two full division of Marine Corps (Both will be expanded into 3 Division).

I see indeed similarities. For example, our territorial defense concept against possible chinese ground invasion in the northern theater bases on strongholds and flexible response forces. Followed by many defense lines up to the capital, should the chinese break through the border defence. That works well since it is put in place centuries ago.

Further to avoid a defeat if the capital fells and the main strike force is lost, we have a concept called honeycomb. That is how vietnamese communities are formed. The smallest entity is a village, which can act independently. In ancient times (even today) villages are self governed by a group of wise men. All villages combined form the nation, like a honeycomb. The enemy must take down all villages if they want to win the war. During the wars with France and America, the foreigners tried to break vietnamese resistance by destroying the village structure.

That is the real strength of our country, not weapons.

 

[Nike]

Yes, and thats why US LOSE THE WAR.
Because there are no foreign conventional forces can defeat well supported guerrilla forces.
And no guerrilla forces can survive without the support of local people.
The doctrine applies when Indonesia is attacked by superior nation such as US.
You are delusional if you think TNI can survive an open war against US using convensional tactics and strategy.
Our main weapons, munition stockpiles and logistic supply can only last 2 or 3 weeks in all out war against Superpower like US.
IF We are going to war against US (in which Australia will definitely take part), all our Fighters, Navy Ships and main strike force such as Kostrad and Marine Corps can only last 2 or 3 weeks.
After that there are only 2 option for our government : 1 surrender, 2 waging a guerrilla warfare.
The 1st option is never and option in our military doctrines.
Thats why we have the HANKAMRATA doctrine.
Which is switching our active military resources from conventional warfare itu guerrilla warfare.
Speak about guerrilla warfare, the main element / vital element was the participation and support of local civilians in many forms, from clandestine to active combatants.
Do you think we can achieve peace in ACEH with our military might only? nope, we achieve with peace resolution.
If we relying in military operation, our army would still fighting in Aceh right now because the separatist got civilian and local supports.
When our nation is under attack and invaded by foreign power, its the duty of all to participate in the fight.
In HANKAMRATA, all Indonesian must take part according to their roles. From active combatants, clandestine operatives, farmers to help the logistic, etc.
Thats why i said before that the HANKAMRATA doctrine are prepared for the worst case scenario when all our conventional forces and tactics are defeated.
But if we are get into limited conflicts or get into war with country such as Malaysia, etc we still can depends on our conventional forces and tactics.

who is the most delusional here? Do you think we had super duper logistical ability to sustain any prolonged war against such super power, especially with our topography and as an archipelago country, a country without land route into other nation to backing us up? Then tell me why a small power like Netherlands can effectively blockade us in the past, and we can only saving our face through diplomatic efforts?

Do you think Vietnam can survive without well supported logistics from other Commies countries such as Soviet and China? Do you think local populace of Vietnam can survive without logistics supported by China? Vietnam war is not only Vietnam fighting against US, but more than that you must taking into account Soviet and China efforts.


You can talking about HANKAMRATA/uncoditional total war system if Indonesia is a country with similar conditions as Soviet Union and China, both have supportive industrial capability, connected with mainland to sustain logistic supply from other countries, abundant landmass as foothold, and with Indonesian case you must have superior air and Naval power to protect your overseas logistic supply/lines and without one of the pretext and still trying to engage such power like US, we can call it National suicide like the Japanese did in their last war against US.

And i am still very against with HANKAMRATA doctrine.

After all peoples duties to their countries must be the most utilized in peace conditions such as today, to achieving more appropriate power and capabilities to be used in war conditions.

 

[Dante]

I see similarities. For example, our territorial defense concept against possible chinese ground invasion in the northern theater bases on strongholds and flexible response forces. Followed by many defense lines up to the capital, should the chinese break through the border defence. That works well since it is put in place centuries ago.

Further to avoid a defeat if the capital fells and the main strike force is lost, we have a concept called honeycomb. That is how vietnamese communities are formed. The smallest entity is a village, which can act independently. In ancient times (even today) villages are self governed by a group of wise men. All villages combined form the nation, like a honeycomb. The enemy must take down all villages if they want to win the war. During the wars with France and America, the foreigners tried to break vietnamese resistance by destroying the village structure.

That is the real strength of our country, not weapons.

Vietnam & Indonesia have a lot of similarities than what people thought, civil-military regional system, culture, even the food are suprisingly identical

So yeah, no need for Indonesia to be hostile to Vietnam nor other ASEAN nation for that matter

No A6 like what Canada has...oh well
are all will be A4?

400 MBT...hmmm that's 8 to 9 battalion, not a bad number for island nation

 

[Nike]

credit to Pelisaurus for his amazing pictures

Indonesian Navy ship

Indonesian oiler and logistic ships with Parchim class

Indonesian Naval aviation crew in rest while exercising Komodo Naval exercise

JMSDF Akebono and KRI Makassar in Komodo Naval Exercise

Laksamana Marsetio as an Imam

 

[MarveL]

hobi baru tante mado : follow postingan peliosaurus

 

[Nike]

gambar-nya bagus-bagus dan dia sudah izinin buat di share kok sayang aja kalau di pek dewe

namanya itu saru lho, Pelisaurus bukan Peliosaurus, peli-nya dari bahasa Jawa Timuran itu

 

[Jakartans@PkDef]

You can talking about HANKAMRATA/uncoditional total war system if Indonesia is a country with similar conditions as Soviet Union and China, both have supportive industrial capability, connected with mainland to sustain logistic supply from other countries, abundant landmass as foothold, and with Indonesian case you must have superior air and Naval power to protect your overseas logistic supply/lines and without one of the pretext and still trying to engage such power like US, we can call it National suicide like the Japanese did in their last war against US.

Nope, our archipelago offers a lot to sustain long guerrilla warfare.There are many channels, inlets and clustered island for weapon smuggling. US with their advanced surveillance system cant even guard their small strip of border with Mexico from illegal immigrants and the islands clustered in Florida are still too much for US to watch over to prevent narcotics smuggling from Columbian cartels.
Guerrilla warfare doesnt need heavy weapons, nor any heavy artillery, please read more history and learn.
To objective is to break the morals and the spirit of the conquering army, let them fight political war in their home front.
Vietcong doesnt have Cobra Helos or B52 to beat the Yankees, Mujahideen doesnt have Heavy Artillery to drive the Soviet out of their homeland.
You give the wrong example by bringing what Japan did during the world war, its not guerrilla warfare, its desperate action with short terms achievements, easy to be crushed.

Until Indonesia Military achieve the level of power at least the same with Japan / South Korea or India, we still need the HANKAMRATA System

If not, Indonesia its an easy country to conquer.
Or you think we should let our regular forces stand toe to toe with US? its a delusional my friend.

Now i asked you, if US decided to mount all out invasion to Indonesia tomorrow, what can we do except to activate the Hankamrata doctrine?
Or you suggest we just throw our regular forces in conventional engagement, let them fight and wiped out in 2-3 weeks and then what? we declare our defeat? is that what you have in mind?

 

[Nike]

Javelin introduction to Infantry personnel

 

[Nike]

Nope, our archipelago offers a lot to sustain long guerrilla warfare.There are many channels, inlets and clustered island for weapon smuggling. US with their advanced surveillance system cant even guard their small strip of border with Mexico from illegal immigrants and the islands clustered in Florida are still too much for US to watch over to prevent narcotics smuggling from Columbian cartels.
Guerrilla warfare doesnt need heavy weapons, nor any heavy artillery, please read more history and learn.
To objective is to break the morals and the spirit of the conquering army, let them fight political war in their home front.
Vietcong doesnt have Cobra Helos or B52 to beat the Yankees, Mujahideen doesnt have Heavy Artillery to drive the Soviet out of their homeland.
You give the wrong example by bringing what Japan did during the world war, its not guerrilla warfare, its desperate action with short terms achievements, easy to be crushed.

Until Indonesia Military achieve the level of power at least the same with Japan / South Korea or India, we still need the HANKAMRATA System

If not, Indonesia its an easy country to conquer.
Or you think we should let our regular forces stand toe to toe with US? its a delusional my friend.

Now i asked you, if US decided to mount all out invasion to Indonesia tomorrow, what can we do except to activate the Hankamrata doctrine?
Or you suggest we just throw our regular forces in conventional engagement, let them fight and wiped out in 2-3 weeks and then what? we declare our defeat? is that what you have in mind?

errr

why you so obsessive with US attack scenario? they had a chance since Indonesian independence day but they not doing much since then. You quite paranoia with the US and has so much tendencies towards China. In the end the only reliable and the most reasonable Super power the in the world of human history ever is USA.

Ok, if you want to ask me what the best thing we can do as an archipelago nation is? never put and trying to let the enemy bring the war into home front, surely you can see what the best strategy England and Japan has put since their inception. Build your conventional forces and put a layer of defenses not into your own Island chains but into your hemisphere, if you are talking about Indonesia is must be another ASEAN countries which will work as our buffers. And to getting this way you must positioning yourself as a reliable partner and big brother of ASEAN. And let them to bear the most share of burden from any war.



As an Islands Nation you must taking into notion to cooperate closely with another countries, forging alliances with other countries who hold prominent Naval power will giving you some insurance about logistic line from Sea. And i will trying the best to made Indonesia never walk alone in Diplomacy and getting insurances from Alliances. No need to made a scenario in which put your people into suffering and bombing conditions like what Iraq get in 2003.

And never fight a loosing fight in first place, is just plain stupid

 

[Nike]

Training with Leo-2A4

 

[Nike]

Prajurit Raider 112 Kodam Iskandar Muda melakukan atraksi pada simulasi pembebasan sandera seusai upacara sertijab Komandan Batalyon Infanteri 112 Raider di Banda Aceh, Selasa (26/8). Batalyon Raider merupakan pasukan elite infanteri TNI sebagai kekuatan penindak dan kekuatan satu batalyon raider setara tiga kali lipat kekuatan satu batalyon infanteri (yonif) biasa di TNI Angkatan Darat. (ANTARA FOTO/Irwansyah Putra)