Indonesia Defence Forum

[Mr. Woof Woof]

You're making a common mistake perpetuated by defense amateurs. That is you're thinking solely on capabilities and not that of logistical cost.

Yeah, the A400M obviously can carry more but with that 158,8 tons there is literally millions of $$$ in logistics. There's a reason why all competent air forces standardize their airframes. With a new airframe, you're going to have to not only retrain your maintenance and flight crews (which cost money if you don't realize), you also need to build a new logistical infrastructure, which if you don't know is the most expensive part of operating an aircraft (which even if it doesn't fly you would still need to maintain).

It would make more sense if the Air Force (let's face it, this is just a political stunt, the A400M's are eventually going to the Air Force) replaced all their C-130's with A400M's, but they're only ordering 6 airframes whilst also simultaneously ordering C-130J's.

Those are 3 different logistical infrastructures.

Those infrastructures are going to cost us hundred of millions, if not billions, of wasted funding solely on spare parts and maintenance alone. Funding that would be better off spent on training or buying other equipment.

It would make more sense if the Air Force had just stuck with their original plan of replacing the entire C-130 fleet with J's and ordering more to make up for the original tonnage requirements. But somewhere down the line somebody probably got a commission from somebody else and now we have this clusterfuck today.

Keep in mind I work in the Defense Industry, and this blatant refusal to standardize almost anything is a VERY big problem in our military, more than you or other people realize or care to admit.

Paham?

Nope,

A400m can carry heavy duty tools with larger capacity but Herky C130J cannot do the same.

Example :

Caterpillar 420D loader backhoe has 2,77 m high on its cabin roof. While C130J only has 2,74 m high on its cargo space. So C130J can't load this vehicle. On the other hand A400m could easily load this tool and another bigger one.

Please remember that natural disaster is the most treat against this country.

When there is a disaster and we have to rescue people trapped in the debris as fast as possible, we have to deliver the right tools to the right place with the right transportation due to we are running out of time. More people we can save IF the right tools could arrive earlier.

Kalo barangnya nggak bisa dimuat di herky dan nggak ada pesawat yang lebih besar yang bisa muat, maka alat berat tersebut akan dimuat di kapal yang hanya akan tiba 36 jam sesudah bencana. Keburu orangnya yang tertimbun mati atuh. Lebih cepat kalo ada A400 bisa naik A400 lebih cepat sampai bandara terdekat hanya perlu waktu 2-3 jam dan dari bandara diangkat pakai helikopter sampai titik bencana.

Intinya : The faster the right tools arrive, the more people we can save.

Mosok kalo ada bencana kita musti minjem A400 dari Singapur sampai sebulan buat angkutin heavy duty tools seperti backhoe loader ?

Trus itu duitnya yang untuk beli A400 bukan dari pajak elu (sebab pajak elu dikali 20 tahun pun nggak bakal cukup buat beli A400 walau cuma sebiji) tapi dana pengadaan itu dari duitnya pertamina sebab pertamina yang beli. A400 yang dua biji itu bakal jadi milik pertamina, walaupun AURI yang jadi pilotnya.

Paham ?

 

[Chestnut]

Nope,

A400m can carry heavy duty tools with larger capacity but Herky C130J cannot do the same.

Example :

Caterpillar 420D loader backhoe has 2,77 m high on its cabin roof. While C130J only has 2,74 m high on its cargo space. So C130J can't load this vehicle. On the other hand A400m could easily load this tool and another bigger one.

Please remember that natural disaster is the most treat against this country.

When there is a disaster and we have to rescue people trapped in the debris as fast as possible, we have to deliver the right tools to the right place with the right transportation due to we are running out of time. More people we can save IF the right tools could arrive earlier.

Kalo barangnya nggak bisa dimuat di herky dan nggak ada pesawat yang lebih besar yang bisa muat, maka alat berat tersebut akan dimuat di kapal yang hanya akan tiba 36 jam sesudah bencana. Keburu orangnya yang tertimbun mati atuh. Lebih cepat kalo ada A400 bisa naik A400 lebih cepat sampai bandara terdekat hanya perlu waktu 2-3 jam dan dari bandara diangkat pakai helikopter sampai titik bencana.

Intinya : The faster the right tools arrive, the more people we can save.

Mosok kalo ada bencana kita musti minjem A400 dari Singapur sampai sebulan buat angkutin heavy duty tools seperti backhoe loader ?

Trus itu duitnya yang untuk beli A400 bukan dari pajak elu (sebab pajak elu dikali 20 tahun pun nggak bakal cukup buat beli A400 walau cuma sebiji) tapi dana pengadaan itu dari duitnya pertamina sebab pertamina yang beli. A400 yang dua biji itu bakal jadi milik pertamina, walaupun AURI yang jadi pilotnya.

Paham ?

No, that's still not a good reason to waste billions of money on something that is better spent on making wiser procurement decisions. Stop being so blinded by patriotism and nationalistic zeal and look at the big picture.

It makes no sense to procure something like that solely for disaster management purposes when a C-130 can also do the job if you dismantle whatever it is that needs to be transported. And yes, heavy equipment can be dismantled, and no, "precious hours' is not a good excuse for wasted funding at the billions.

If getting equipment is really such an issue, it would make more sense to station such equipment in high risk areas rather than buying something like the A400M just to transport something like that. Work smarter not harder.

And no shit my own tax alone wouldn't pay for it, but my tax money still helped pay for it (trust me when I say I earn enough to get taxed alot each month). Pertamina is a government run enterprise, and if you think that any of our BUMN companies can run without taxes, you're sorely naive.

Paham?

 

[GraveDigger388]

Look like even small patrol units in remote border areas has given body armor and new bearing vest

What is left is the helmets and Alkom.

 

[radialv]

A-400 from sp

Nope,

A400m can carry heavy duty tools with larger capacity but Herky C130J cannot do the same.

Example :

Caterpillar 420D loader backhoe has 2,77 m high on its cabin roof. While C130J only has 2,74 m high on its cargo space. So C130J can't load this vehicle. On the other hand A400m could easily load this tool and another bigger one.

Please remember that natural disaster is the most treat against this country.

When there is a disaster and we have to rescue people trapped in the debris as fast as possible, we have to deliver the right tools to the right place with the right transportation due to we are running out of time. More people we can save IF the right tools could arrive earlier.

Kalo barangnya nggak bisa dimuat di herky dan nggak ada pesawat yang lebih besar yang bisa muat, maka alat berat tersebut akan dimuat di kapal yang hanya akan tiba 36 jam sesudah bencana. Keburu orangnya yang tertimbun mati atuh. Lebih cepat kalo ada A400 bisa naik A400 lebih cepat sampai bandara terdekat hanya perlu waktu 2-3 jam dan dari bandara diangkat pakai helikopter sampai titik bencana.

Intinya : The faster the right tools arrive, the more people we can save.

Mosok kalo ada bencana kita musti minjem A400 dari Singapur sampai sebulan buat angkutin heavy duty tools seperti backhoe loader ?

Trus itu duitnya yang untuk beli A400 bukan dari pajak elu (sebab pajak elu dikali 20 tahun pun nggak bakal cukup buat beli A400 walau cuma sebiji) tapi dana pengadaan itu dari duitnya pertamina sebab pertamina yang beli. A400 yang dua biji itu bakal jadi milik pertamina, walaupun AURI yang jadi pilotnya.

Paham ?

A-400 from spore? malay to be precise bro

 

[Chestnut]

What is left is the helmets and Alkom.

Alkom, helmets, IFAKs, enough plates for everybody. Pretty much the whole nine yards.

We're not there yet but with the Marines you can actually count on them actually getting there.

 

[HellFireIndo]

Keep in mind I work in the Defense Industry, and this blatant refusal to standardize almost anything is a VERY big problem in our military, more than you or other people realize or care to admit.

Mr.Chestnut, is there's a chance that you are the same person that posted AMA thread on reddit? if yes then, i'm the person who asked that ultra-long set of questions.

So, what do you think is the best solution for the Indonesia military regarding the dilemma about the standardization of cargo/support plane? should we just go all out on complete replacement of old Hercules fleets with altogether (with A400 Atlas for replacement) despite the tremendous cost for the replacement? or is it better to stick with the C-130 models and buy the more up-to-date variant like the C-130 J-30 and "MRO" (or even upgrade) the rest? as perhaps that it will be cheaper, less complicated and the fact that the Air Force already familiar with the model, will maybe, made it the easier choice?

Also, what could be the real reason/explanation of how a BUMN like Pertamina shows their interest in buying heavy class cargo like the A400? as i still not buying the whole gas price explanation, it's seems kinda weird if transporting gasoline by airlift will make it cheaper in any way, aren't transporting cargo by ship is always cheaper?

 

[Nike]

paspampres, Indonesia presidential guards

 

[Nike]

Patrol in Papua caught ilegal logging activities, notes their tactical commercial boots it seems TNI AD Soldiers in the world love them very much.

 

[Nike]

 

[deadlast]

No, that's still not a good reason to waste billions of money on something that is better spent on making wiser procurement decisions. Stop being so blinded by patriotism and nationalistic zeal and look at the big picture.

It makes no sense to procure something like that solely for disaster management purposes when a C-130 can also do the job if you dismantle whatever it is that needs to be transported. And yes, heavy equipment can be dismantled, and no, "precious hours' is not a good excuse for wasted funding at the billions.

If getting equipment is really such an issue, it would make more sense to station such equipment in high risk areas rather than buying something like the A400M just to transport something like that. Work smarter not harder.

And no shit my own tax alone wouldn't pay for it, but my tax money still helped pay for it (trust me when I say I earn enough to get taxed alot each month). Pertamina is a government run enterprise, and if you think that any of our BUMN companies can run without taxes, you're sorely naive.

Paham?

Mr.Chestnut, is there's a chance that you are the same person that posted AMA thread on reddit? if yes then, i'm the person who asked that ultra-long set of questions.

So, what do you think is the best solution for the Indonesia military regarding the dilemma about the standardization of cargo/support plane? should we just go all out on complete replacement of old Hercules fleets with altogether (with A400 Atlas for replacement) despite the tremendous cost for the replacement? or is it better to stick with the C-130 models and buy the more up-to-date variant like the C-130 J-30 and "MRO" (or even upgrade) the rest? as perhaps that it will be cheaper, less complicated and the fact that the Air Force already familiar with the model, will maybe, made it the easier choice?

Also, what could be the real reason/explanation of how a BUMN like Pertamina shows their interest in buying heavy class cargo like the A400? as i still not buying the whole gas price explanation, it's seems kinda weird if transporting gasoline by airlift will make it cheaper in any way, aren't transporting cargo by ship is always cheaper?

Old article, but still relevant for general situation on the field in my opinion.
http://www.bumn.go.id/pertamina/berita/1-BBM-Satu-Harga-di-Papua-Sulit-Tapi-Bisa-
http://bumn.go.id/pertamina/berita/10968
https://www.aktual.com/kondisi-keamanan-tak-kondusif-pertamina-tunda-distribusi-bbm-intan-jaya/

Important points:

• "Jadi dari hasil sidak itu APMS menjual harga bensin Rp 6.400/liter, artinya harga itu masih sama dengan yang ditetapkan Pertamina. Sedangkan harga Solar Rp 5.600/liter,"

  - One price fuel is possible
  

• Dalam satu bulan bensin yang dibutuhkan di Lani Jaya mencapai 75.000 liter dan solar 10.000 liter. Sayangnya dalam sidak yang dilakukan ke APMS ternyata setiap bulan bensin yang diterima hanya 30.000-35.000 liter, dan solar 8.000 liter.

  - Supply cannot keep up with the demands

• Disinggung soal kemahalan BBM di wilayah pegunungan karena masalah harga pengiriman, menurut Christian, saat ini harga pengiriman bukan suatu alasan karena Presiden Jokowi sendiri sudah meminta Pertamina untuk menanggung harga pendistribusian dari keuntungan yang diperoleh Pertamina selama ini.

  - Shipping cost is shouldered by Pertamina
  

• PT Pertamina Marketing Operation Region (MOR) VIII Maluku-Papua menyebutkan cara paling sederhana yang dilakukan oleh Pertamina dalam penyaluran BBM di tanah Papua yakni dari terminal transit Wayame di Pulau Ambon disalurkan BBM hingga ke pelosok tanah Papua dengan kapal Tongkang, lalu diangkut kembali dengan truk BBM ke APMS.

  Lalu, ada juga penyalurannya dengan cara sulit yakni disalurkan dari Terminal Wayame dengan kapal tongkang, lalu menggunakan pesawat dan kembali diangkut dengan truk BBM hingga ke APMS tujuan. Cara model seperti ini biasa dilakukan didaerah pegunungan tengah Papua.

  "Ada dua kabupaten di Pegunungan tengah Papua, yakni Kabupaten Puncak dan Pegunungan Bintang yang secara keseluruhan BBM diangkut dengan pesawat, karena di kabupaten ini, jalan darat belum terhubung,"

  - Complicated distribution routes and modes of transportation, worsened by lack of land routes on some areas
  

• Untuk mengatasi masalah pendistribusian BBM, Pertamina menyediakan dua pesawat khusus pengangkut BBM yakni pesawat Air Tractor AT-802. Pesawat berbadan kecil yang tak memiliki pintu masuk ini mampu mengangkut 4.000 liter sekali terbang.

  Sebelum adanya kebijakan Presiden Joko Widodo tentang Papua satu harga BBM, distribusi BBM di Papua, khusus untuk wilayah pegunungan tengah Papua, seluruhnya diangkut ke Kabupaten Jayawijaya dan dari lokasi tersebut baru didistribusikan dengan mobil tangki atau pesawat ke sejumlah kabupaten.

  Proses pendistribusian yang tergolong rumit ini menyebabkan biaya distribusi yang tinggi dibebankan kepada masyarakat, sehingga harga membubung tinggi. Program BBM satu harga di Papua juga memberikan pembentukan APMS di delapan kabupaten yakni Yalimo, Intan Jaya, Mamberamo Tengah, Mamberamo Raya, Nduga, Tolikara, Puncak, dan Pegunungan Arfak.

  "Pembangunan APMS akan mempermudah menyalurkan BBM ke masyarakat," jelas Taufik. Dulunya, sebelum adanya program Papua satu harga BBM, harga BBM di Papua khususnya di wilayah pegunungan tengah Papua bisa mencapai Rp 100.000 per liter dan harga terendah mencapai Rp 20.000 per liter.

  - Pertamina uses special "fuel transport planes" to simplify distribution and to reduced cost
  

• Manajemen Pertamina Marketing Operation Region (MOR) VIII Maluku-Papua untuk sementara menunda penyaluran bahan bakar minyak (BBM) ke Kabupaten Intan Jaya, Provinsi Papua, karena kondisi keamanan yang sedang tidak kondusif.

  “Untuk sementara kami hentikan sampai kondusif dulu karena APMS kami juga ikut dibakar,” ujar Manager Fuel Ritel Pertamina MOR VIII Zibali Hisbul Masih di Jayapura, Minggu (26/2).

  - The threat of local "armed group" is still one of the concerns

So, it's not about problem whether ships is more efficient than planes but it's more about the distribution method after the fuel reach port that is the main concern.
It has been explained above that some place doesn't even have any land route whatsoever thus explained the need of airplanes, also the other problem mention was that the supply cannot meet up with demands, which means they need a larger plane than air tractor, the remoteness of the destination also dictate the requirements of the plane itself, e.g.: STOL capabilities, rugged runway operation, internal APU, large cargo, etc -that was basically require a military specs planes to perform those roles.
If we want to dig deeper, Pelita Air Services (PAS), the one who's going to operate them also had a lot of experience of operating military spec plane in the form of C-160 Transall before in those kind of roles and location (Also Lockheed L-100 Hercules if those could be considered as military specs).

Now, do Airbus A400M suitable for the task or not is questionable, we do know that PAS already operates military spec planes for some times now and last time I check they did not depend on air forces or TNIs budget to fund their operation or fleet maintenance either, but in my own opinion the price of A400M is a tad bit excessive for the requirements mentioned above, they could get more "bang-for-the-bucks" if they choose other less bigger and cheaper planes like C-130J/LM-100J or even C-295, if it's only going to be used solely as fuel transport aircraft that is.

 

[Nike]

test firing QW 3

 

[Chestnut]

@HellFireIndo

Yes, that was me.

To answer your question, it's not whether or no the A400M can carry more than the C-130, it's that whatever choice we make we should pick one airframe and stick to it. Either replace all the B/H's with the J's or with A400M's. And to be honest, there's really now reason why other BUMN companies can't just use the B's/H's. It's not like they require the newest tactical air lifter if the only thing they would really be doing is just hauling fuel.

My personal choice is the C-130J, we already have the support infrastructure and know-how to operate and maintain the C-130, which would make them much cheaper to operate than the A400M.

Also, what could be the real reason/explanation of how a BUMN like Pertamina shows their interest in buying heavy class cargo like the A400? as i still not buying the whole gas price explanation, it's seems kinda weird if transporting gasoline by airlift will make it cheaper in any way, aren't transporting cargo by ship is always cheaper?

The A400M is made by Airbus, Airbus has a strong working relationship with PTDI. The Air Force has many times indicated that they do not want the A400M, however that's not how our country works. Obviously, someone somewhere is getting a good kickback from Airbus for convincing the Indonesian government to pick the A400M.

 

[Mr. Woof Woof]

@HellFireIndo

Yes, that was me.

To answer your question, it's not whether or no the A400M can carry more than the C-130, it's that whatever choice we make we should pick one airframe and stick to it. Either replace all the B/H's with the J's or with A400M's. And to be honest, there's really now reason why other BUMN companies can't just use the B's/H's. It's not like they require the newest tactical air lifter if the only thing they would really be doing is just hauling fuel.

My personal choice is the C-130J, we already have the support infrastructure and know-how to operate and maintain the C-130, which would make them much cheaper to operate than the A400M.




The A400M is made by Airbus, Airbus has a strong working relationship with PTDI. The Air Force has many times indicated that they do not want the A400M, however that's not how our country works. Obviously, someone somewhere is getting a good kickback from Airbus for convincing the Indonesian government to pick the A400M.

Pengadaan itu nggak bisa dari 1 sumber aja, bisa bahaya kalo ada apa-apa sama 1 sumber itu. Kalo hanya dari 1 sumber itu namanya monopoli.

From my calculation :

All B's and H's will be replaced gradually with Super J or the next series until 40-42 unit Herkies. First are B's until 2029 and H's from 2030 to 2044.

Also from my calculation :
A400m's will form a new heavy lift aircraft squadron from 2024 to 2044 with quantity of 12 to 24 units. Procurement will be gradually (pengadaan dicicil) and starting from this year (via Pertamina only 2 units) until 2044.

Thus in 2044 we will have 54 to 64 unit of heavy lift utility fixed wing aircrafts. Lumayan untuk negeri kita yang seluas Eropa.

 

[Svantana]

 

[GraveDigger388]

Domestically produced uniforms. Anyone knows whether or not any unit uses them yet?