Indonesia Defence Forum

[nufix]

Actually Indonesia itself must answer the question what role it seeks in the region? What is its position in the world?
As for ASEAN, at present it does not require a leader who goes ahead and leads the bloc. Its leadership rotates among the member states, and all decisions are based on consensus. All nations are independent entities.

No question, Indonesia, with the largest population and GDP, has important weight. It is only up to your politicians and elites if they are ready to do what you have in mind.

As a mediator of course, and the one that will take charge de facto when things go sour among ASEAN members. Remember the Cambodia's case in the recent ASEAN meeting?

The rotating leadership is what makes ASEAN become vulnerable, not all ASEAN countries want a stable condition. Vietnam and Philippines are having a dispute with China, in the other hand, Laos and possibly Cambodia are siding with the one you are pointing your guns to, while in the meantime countries with good economy conditions like Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, and Indonesia want a stable condition for trades and business. And Guess what? the white paper of ASEAN will change every time the chair of leadership rotates from one country to another. Making ASEAN becomes a group of countries with no constant principles.

The question is:

if one country, namely Indonesia, takes a strong stand against external threats by building a massive military force, will Singapore and Malaysia (two traditional rivals to Indonesia) and Thailand support Indonesia's decision both diplomatically and financially? After all, if the war breaks out, the main source of men would be from Indonesia as she has 250 million people, not to mention that she has 20 million poor and unemployed people ready to be sent to war and military factories.

That's the actual thing that raises our concern, if we take a hard move against external threats, will the other neighboring countries support it? especially Cambodia, Laos, and Singapore who have strong foreign presences.

 

[Viet]

As a mediator of course, and the one that will take charge de facto when things go sour among ASEAN members. Remember the Cambodia's case in the recent ASEAN meeting?

That was a good thing. The point went to you.
BUT one issue remains here: China opposes any mediation, any third party intervention, insists on bilateral negogtiation. So Indonesia cannot help here.

As for VN, we welcome Indonesia involvement.

The rotating leadership is what makes ASEAN become vulnerable, not all ASEAN countries want a stable condition. Vietnam and Philippines are having a dispute with China, in the other hand, Laos and possibly Cambodia are siding with the one you are pointing your guns to, while in the meantime countries with good economy conditions like Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia, and Indonesia want a stable condition for trades and business. And Guess what? the white paper of ASEAN will change every time the chair of leadership rotates from one country to another. Making ASEAN becomes a group of countries with no constant principles.

I disagree.

ASEAN needs no particular country to lead the bloc. One country, one voice. Rotated chairman. Period.
There is no point in changing the rule of game. ASEAN works well despites many differences among member states.

The question is:

if one country, namely Indonesia, takes a strong stand against external threats by building a massive military force, will Singapore and Malaysia (two traditional rivals to Indonesia) and Thailand support Indonesia's decision both diplomatically and financially?

What you do has nothing to do with other countries. It´s up to any country if it wants provide help or assistance to Indonesia, or stay neutral or what ever.

After all, if the war breaks out, the main source of men would be from Indonesia as she has 250 million people, not to mention that she has 20 million poor and unemployed people ready to be sent to war and military factories.

I don´t see any immediate threat to you, so why speculate?

That's the actual thing that raises our concern, if we take a hard move against external threats, will the other neighboring countries support it? especially Cambodia, Laos, and Singapore who have strong foreign presences.

Again, Indonesia is a soverein country, you do based on your interests, so are others. Don´t mix up things.

 

[nufix]

I disagree.

ASEAN needs no particular country to lead the bloc. One country, one voice. Rotated chairman. Period.
There is no point in changing the rule of game. ASEAN works well despites many differences among member states.

Explain it a little bit further, because the word of "well" is depended under certain circumstances.

What you do has nothing to do with other countries. It´s up to any country if it wants provide help or assistance to Indonesia, or stay neutral or what ever.

I don´t see any immediate threat to you, so why speculate?

Again, Indonesia is a soverein country, you do basd on your interests, so are others. Don´t mix up things.

You don't get it, do you?

We are still talking about what Indonesia should do with its importance to the region. And by external threats I mean "External Threat" to the region, threats that come from outside ASEAN. Thus, by "war effort" I mean if Indonesia takes a strong opposition to the parties that threaten ASEAN, will traditional rivals of Indonesia and major ASEAN countries support her?

And by that, I speculated that if Indonesia, along with all ASEAN members, finally will have to go to war to eradicate the threats to the region, the source of manpower will end up in Indonesia right? Huge number of people and enough raw materials to support the war.

My statement has nothing to do with Indonesia's own external threat, I am talking about the threats to the region, and the possibility of Indonesia to initiate a strong stand against, namely China, or whatever country that threatens ASEAN.

 

[nufix]

Video report of the first flight of Indonesia's KAI T50i (News in Hangul)


MBC´º½º - imnews.imbc.com

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Actually Indonesia itself must answer the question what role it seeks in the region? What is its position in the world?
As for ASEAN, at present it does not require a leader who goes ahead and leads the bloc. Its leadership rotates among the member states, and all decisions are based on consensus. All nations are independent entities.

No question, Indonesia, with the largest population and GDP, has important weight. It is only up to your politicians and elites if they are ready to do what you have in mind.

I never said that ASEAN needs a "leader" in your sense of the word. All I want is for Indonesia to take its rightful places as the "De-Facto leader" of the group. Just like what Germany did in the EU. We want the whole Region to accept and Respect our country rise to power.

 

[Viet]

I never said that ASEAN needs a "leader" in your sense of the word. All I want is for Indonesia to take its rightful places as the "De-Facto leader" of the group. Just like what Germany did in the EU. We want the whole Region to accept and Respect our country rise to power.

Honestly speaking, you can´t compare Indonesia with Germany. That is an ocean between the two nations. There is still a long way to go for you before Indonesia gains the status and power what Germany currently possesses: economic, military, culture and political influence. You know, since the end of WW II, Germany never asks or demands other Europeans that they should be submited (the old time is long over).

Moreover Europe wants Germany to play a bigger role.

Actually nothing comes from the sky, you must work hard to get what you want. It is silly to expect that others accept and see you as natural-born leader, as de-facto leader, just because you are big and populous. No offence.

I suggest, if Indonesia wants more influence and status in the region and the world, your politicians must be more active, they must go out and engage more with others. At the moment you are too passive.

 

[nufix]

Honestly speaking, you can´t compare Indonesia with Germany. That is an ocean between the two nations. There is still a long way to go for you before Indonesia gains the status and power what Germany currently possesses: economic, military, culture and political influence. You know, since the end of WW II, Germany never asks or demands other Europeans that they should be submited (the old time is long over).

Moreover Europe wants Germany to play a bigger role.

Actually nothing comes from the sky, you must work hard to get what you want. It is silly to expect that others accept and see you as natural-born leader, as de-facto leader, just because you are big and populous. No offence.

I suggest, if Indonesia wants more influence and status in the region and the world, your politicians must be more active, they must go out and engage more with others. At the moment you are too passive.

Don't mind his statement, Indonesia never asks to be accepted as a central leader though.

But the recent ASEAN meetings and how Indonesia initiate and turn ASEAN countries to accept her proposals and her roles in moderating the members may prove the other way.

Die Bundeswehr ist nicht so gross, wie es war. France has even bigger military forces than Germany. The main cause of Germany's strong influence in EU is its economical power that can even bail Greece and Spain for years. And as for culture, nah I don't think so, German culture is only influencing central europe, west and east european countries have far different culture.


Agree.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Honestly speaking, you can´t compare Indonesia with Germany. That is an ocean between the two nations. There is still a long way to go for you before Indonesia gains the status and power what Germany currently possesses: economic, military, culture and political influence. You know, since the end of WW II, Germany never asks or demands other Europeans that they should be submited (the old time is long over).

Moreover Europe wants Germany to play a bigger role.

Actually nothing comes from the sky, you must work hard to get what you want. It is silly to expect that others accept and see you as natural-born leader, as de-facto leader, just because you are big and populous. No offence.

I suggest, if Indonesia wants more influence and status in the region and the world, your politicians must be more active, they must go out and engage more with others. At the moment you are too passive.

Precisely why for that reason that Indonesia will be the region top dog. You might remember that after last year debacle in Cambodia the rest of ASEAN look to Indonesia for leadership. All I'm saying is we never ask for it, but we might as well take full advantages of the situation.

A country that have a bigger economy & population does have a bigger say in politic & its only right if we have the bigger slice of the pie in the group.

If you're saying Indonesia is too "passive" in the international theater than you really haven't been watching the news.

 

[Viet]

Don't mind his statement, Indonesia never asks to be accepted as a central leader though.

But the recent ASEAN meetings and how Indonesia initiate and turn ASEAN countries to accept her proposals and her roles in moderating the members may prove the other way.

Don´t judge me wrong. I welcome Indonesia if you play a bigger role in the ASEAN.

But again you should do more, yes more than just this moderating role between conflicting members such as Cambodia and Philippines. That´s too litle. Look at the bigger picture. Today everybody talks of America, Europe (the triad: Germany, France and England), China or Japan, while China dominates the news. The rest including Indonesia plays a minor role. Indonesia along with ASEAN can change this picture.

As for VN, our politicians are very busy these days, and engage the world. One of the reason is VN faces more challenges than any others in the region. I see, you are now in 2013 where VN was 10 years ago, as we had our eyes on domestic issues only. Maybe I am wrong, but that is my impression.

To be recognised by other, that you have the lead comes with the time.

Die Bundeswehr ist nicht so gross, wie es war.

Germany is small in size and population, but huge in terms of economy and military:
Population: 81ml
GDP (2012) $3,366bn
Defence spending (2012) $46.7bn
GDP per capita Nominal: $43,741
Exports €1.288 trillion (2011)

France has even bigger military forces than Germany. The main cause of Germany's strong influence in EU is its economical power that can even bail Greece and Spain for years. And as for culture, nah I don't think so, German culture is only influencing central europe, west and east european countries have far different culture.

Germany learned from the history and doesn´t want to wage any war again. Historially France and England are dominant colonical powers. As for Greece and Spain, the Germans hate supporting them.

 

[Viet]

Precisely why for that reason that Indonesia will be the region top dog. You might remember that after last year debacle in Cambodia the rest of ASEAN look to Indonesia for leadership. All I'm saying is we never ask for it, but we might as well take full advantages of the situation.

A country that have a bigger economy & population does have a bigger say in politic & its only right if we have the bigger slice of the pie in the group. If you're saying Indonesia is too "passive" in the international theater than you really haven't been watching the news.

Cambodia is just a beginning.

If Indonesia can moderate and reach some sorts of agreements on how to solve the current disputes in the region, notably in the South China and East China Sea, than hat up to Indonesia!

 

[nufix]

Don´t judge me wrong. I welcome Indonesia if you play a bigger role in the ASEAN.

But again you should do more, yes more than just this moderating role between conflicting members such as Cambodia and Philippines. That´s too litle. Look at the bigger picture. Today everybody talks of America, Europe (the triad: Germany, France and England), China or Japan, while China dominates the news. The rest including Indonesia plays a minor role. Indonesia along with ASEAN can change this picture.

As for VN, our politicians are very busy these days, and engage the world. One of the reason is VN faces more challenges than any others in the region. I see, you are now in 2013 where VN was 10 years ago, as we had our eyes on domestic issues only. Maybe I am wrong, but that is my impression.

To be recognised by other, that you have the lead comes with the time.

Because Indonesia simply don't want to lose its trade partners, I am agree that Indonesia plays minor role in the news, but at what circumstances? You can simply go to economy section and you'll find that Indonesia plays its role through economy, not by diplomatically arguing and bashing each other or picking up arms and pointing them.

Yes, but the same thing goes for the other ways around when I say that Vietnam now, was Indonesia 60 years ago (although I still don't see Vietnam now is anywhere near it). I mean, Indonesia was one of the founder of Non-Aligned Movement, establishing Asia-Africa conference, forming Jakarta-Peking Axis, and so on. So, saying Indonesia now was Vietnam years years ago is not making up your point.

Germany is small in size and population, but huge in terms of economy and military:
Population: 81ml
GDP (2012) $3,366bn
Defence spending (2012) $46.7bn
GDP per capita Nominal: $43,741
Exports €1.288 trillion (2011)

Bundeswehr means federal defense, I didn't talk about the size of German economy when I said that "Bundeswehr is not so big as it was". The French spent $58 billion on military last year just so you know.

Germany learned from the history and doesn´t want to wage any war again. Historially France and England are dominant colonical powers. As for Greece and Spain, the Germans hate supporting them.

Yes, but that doesn't stop Merkel from bailing them out.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Cambodia is just a beginning.

If Indonesia can moderate and reach some sorts of agreements on how to solve the current disputes in the region, notably in the South China and East China Sea, than hat up to Indonesia!

No 'fense, but why should we "solve the current dispute?" I'm saying that my country should be regarded as the "Top Dog" or De-facto leader ( as in, when people refer to ASEAN they meant Indonesia). East China sea isn't our concern. The South China sea maybe, but I always advised against sticking your nose on someone else problem.

 

[nufix]

An evening in Indonesian Navy east fleet command base, Surabaya, East Java. 03/13

A soldier from NUBIKA (Nuclear-Biology-Chemical) division wearing a gas mask.

Passing through a field under heavy rains of bullets

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Indonesia secures contract to produce more helicopters for armed forces
Souce:Xinhua Publish By Thomas Whittle Updated 16/03/2013 3:04 am

JAKARTA, March 15 — Indonesia’s state-run aircraft manufacturer PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) has secured another contract to produce 16 Bell 412 EP helicopters for the military worth 170 million U.S. dollars, a senior PTDI official said on Friday.

PTDI President Director Budi Santoso said that delivery on the 16 helicopters was scheduled next year as production would take at least one year.

A contract was signed in March last year to produce six Bell 412 helicopters which were handed over to the armed forces on Friday.

“The procurement contract on those six helicopters was worth 65 million U.S. dollars,” he said, quoted by the detik online.

Bell 412 EP is the advanced version of Bell 412 series, designed as multipurpose helicopter. It is fitted by Pratt and Whitney PT6T-3D twin engines, using four blades in its main rotor and two blades in its tail rotor and is capable to board up to 13 people.

Indonesia secures contract to produce more helicopters for armed forces - NZweek

6 of the Helicopter has already been delivered to the Army

 

[nufix]

The EP version is an enhanced performance version for Bell 412, it is also included FLIR feature.

Here the close photo for the FLIR camera, possibly developed by PT LEN industry.