Indigenous Super & hypersonic missiles in development

[Pak Nationalist]

We have been consistently receiving hints from official sources that at least 1 (if not more) supersonic missile/s is under development. The outgoing naval chief also talked about a hypersonic naval ballistic (?) missile. However, all ballistic missiles achieve hypersonic velocities, so explicitly speaking about a hypersonic delivery system points to developmental work in that domain as well. This forum has also seen direct/indirect references to Pakistani weapons programs developments covering these key domains.

Are there any "educated" guesses on when we could get to see tests of these platforms?

Is it a coincidence that not even one of our missile tests has ever met with failure whereas far more technologically advanced states than we encounter the occasional and sometimes sustained failure?

Is there a possibility that the testing is already proceeding, but we still have ways to go to reach the types of output we want to achieve from the underdevelopment systems?

A side question is that is Pakistan capable of INDIGENOUSLY developing hypersonic delivery systems? Have we built the wind tunnels, other design validation/optimization aids required to perfect these technologies?

 

[Akh1112]

Don’t think he ever mentioned hypersonic, rather a supersonic anti ship missile.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Don’t think he ever mentioned hypersonic, rather a supersonic anti ship missile.

He said hypersonic, but in the context of the P282 ASBM:

 

[JamD]

However, all ballistic missiles achieve hypersonic velocities, so explicitly speaking about a hypersonic delivery system points to developmental work in that domain as well.

The highlighted part is incorrect: Not all ballistic missiles achieve hypersonic reentry speeds - only the longer ranged ones do - think ICBMs and long range IRBMs. Also, achieving hypersonic speeds (as you rightly point out) is nothing out of this world. The real challenge is "flying" and "maneuvering" at hypersonic speeds. I believe there is some aspect of this in the mentioned P282 BM, otherwise mentioning it specifically as "hypersonic domain" would've been pointless.

The P282 might look something like:

or even something like the CM-400AKG

So it's really hard to say what type of system it is.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The highlighted part is incorrect: Not all ballistic missiles achieve hypersonic reentry speeds - only the longer ranged ones do - think ICBMs and long range IRBMs. Also, achieving hypersonic speeds (as you rightly point out) is nothing out of this world. The real challenge is "flying" and "maneuvering" at hypersonic speeds. I believe there is some aspect of this in the mentioned P282 BM, otherwise mentioning it specifically as "hypersonic domain" would've been pointless.

The P282 might look something like:
View attachment 770815
or even something like the CM-400AKG

So it's really hard to say what type of system it is.

If the P282 embodies those key characteristics (e.g., "maneuvering" at hypersonic speeds), it could be the start of a new generation fo ballistic missiles.

 

[Pak Nationalist]

The highlighted part is incorrect: Not all ballistic missiles achieve hypersonic reentry speeds - only the longer ranged ones do - think ICBMs and long range IRBMs. Also, achieving hypersonic speeds (as you rightly point out) is nothing out of this world. The real challenge is "flying" and "maneuvering" at hypersonic speeds. I believe there is some aspect of this in the mentioned P282 BM, otherwise mentioning it specifically as "hypersonic domain" would've been pointless.

The P282 might look something like:
View attachment 770815
or even something like the CM-400AKG

So it's really hard to say what type of system it is.

Thank you for correcting me. I am a novice when it comes to the specifics of weapons systems. That is why I have joined the forum to learn.

 

[Pak Nationalist]

The highlighted part is incorrect: Not all ballistic missiles achieve hypersonic reentry speeds - only the longer ranged ones do - think ICBMs and long range IRBMs. Also, achieving hypersonic speeds (as you rightly point out) is nothing out of this world. The real challenge is "flying" and "maneuvering" at hypersonic speeds. I believe there is some aspect of this in the mentioned P282 BM, otherwise mentioning it specifically as "hypersonic domain" would've been pointless.

The P282 might look something like:
View attachment 770815
or even something like the CM-400AKG

So it's really hard to say what type of system it is.

Makes sense, to hit a moving target a weapon has to be maneuverable in thehighest speed terminal stage.

 

[CombatSurgeon]

The highlighted part is incorrect: Not all ballistic missiles achieve hypersonic reentry speeds - only the longer ranged ones do - think ICBMs and long range IRBMs. Also, achieving hypersonic speeds (as you rightly point out) is nothing out of this world. The real challenge is "flying" and "maneuvering" at hypersonic speeds. I believe there is some aspect of this in the mentioned P282 BM, otherwise mentioning it specifically as "hypersonic domain" would've been pointless.

The P282 might look something like:
View attachment 770815
or even something like the CM-400AKG

So it's really hard to say what type of system it is.

In fact, almost all ballistic missiles do achieve a terminal velocity above Mach 5. By definition Mach 5 and above is Hypersonic. Even a puny Scud does it!

 

[sharpshooter#]

In fact, almost all ballistic missiles do achieve a terminal velocity above Mach 5. By definition Mach 5 and above is Hypersonic. Even a puny Scud does it!

Well outgoing naval chief mentioned the development of ballistic missile in hypersonic domain under project p282 but he didn't mention of supersonic antiship cruise missile which is under development

 

[JamD]

In fact, almost all ballistic missiles do achieve a terminal velocity above Mach 5. By definition Mach 5 and above is Hypersonic. Even a puny Scud does it!

No they do not. You might be confusing the speed ballistic missiles achieve "outside" the atmosphere with terminal speed - which are very different things.

I did a little simulation for a Ghaznavi-type missile. I am sure you consider Ghaznavi a ballistic missile. Here's what you get:

The green line shows the Karman line. Blue line is the surface of the Earth, while the red and magenta are the missile trajectory. You can see the maximum Mach around 20, which is of course because the speed of sound being so small so high up. At 10km altitude the Mach is 3. Not hypersonic.

 

[CombatSurgeon]

No they do not. You might be confusing the speed ballistic missiles achieve "outside" the atmosphere with terminal speed - which are very different things.

I did a little simulation for a Ghaznavi-type missile. I am sure you consider Ghaznavi a ballistic missile. Here's what you get:
View attachment 771045

The green line shows the Karman line. Blue line is the surface of the Earth, while the red and magenta are the missile trajectory. You can see the maximum Mach around 20, which is of course because the speed of sound being so small so high up. At 10km altitude the Mach is 3. Not hypersonic.

Don't be so condescending, man. Well, u must be quite good at throwing around quite needless graphs and other stuff because I mentioned that Ballistic missiles achieve a certain Mach level in their flight. People in defense circles usually worry about interception and that's where terminal velocity matters. All weapon systems are credited with the top speed in whatever phase they achieve it, be it fighters, missiles, etc.
Here's a link to a book in which reputed authors, unlike you with just graphs, do mention top terminal speed for Scud type weapons. The Whirlwind War
https://history.army.mil/books/www/wwwapena.htm.
-With the Scuds reaching a terminal velocity of Mach 6, time was of the absolute essence in launching Patriots against them.--

 

[Champion_Usmani]

He said hypersonic, but in the context of the P282 ASBM:

He says P282 'plus' ballistic missile is under development. It could mean P282 is some different (cruise??) missile in hypersonic category and also a ballistic missile is also under development???

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

He says P282 'plus' ballistic missile is under development. It could mean P282 is some different (cruise??) missile in hypersonic category and also a ballistic missile is also under development???

No I think he just had trouble saying "ballistic".

 

[JamD]

Don't be so condescending, man. Well, u must be quite good at throwing around quite needless graphs and other stuff because I mentioned that Ballistic missiles achieve a certain Mach level in their flight. People in defense circles usually worry about interception and that's where terminal velocity matters. All weapon systems are credited with the top speed in whatever phase they achieve it, be it fighters, missiles, etc.
Here's a link to a book in which reputed authors, unlike you with just graphs, do mention top terminal speed for Scud type weapons. The Whirlwind War
https://history.army.mil/books/www/wwwapena.htm.
-With the Scuds reaching a terminal velocity of Mach 6, time was of the absolute essence in launching Patriots against them.--

I was trying to have an informed debate. If you find that condescension, then that is your personal problem. Have a good day.

 

[S A L M A N.]

No they do not. You might be confusing the speed ballistic missiles achieve "outside" the atmosphere with terminal speed - which are very different things.

I did a little simulation for a Ghaznavi-type missile. I am sure you consider Ghaznavi a ballistic missile. Here's what you get:
View attachment 771045

The green line shows the Karman line. Blue line is the surface of the Earth, while the red and magenta are the missile trajectory. You can see the maximum Mach around 20, which is of course because the speed of sound being so small so high up. At 10km altitude the Mach is 3. Not hypersonic.

The geek in me is loving these. Could you please give me a 'teacher's explanation' of the simulation? I've been looking for books to help me get started on the flight dynamics of guided rockets/missiles, but i haven't found anything, courtesy of ITAR probably.

An overview of the governing equations used here would be most helpful.

Don't be so condescending, man. Well, u must be quite good at throwing around quite needless graphs and other stuff because I mentioned that Ballistic missiles achieve a certain Mach level in their flight. People in defense circles usually worry about interception and that's where terminal velocity matters. All weapon systems are credited with the top speed in whatever phase they achieve it, be it fighters, missiles, etc.
Here's a link to a book in which reputed authors, unlike you with just graphs, do mention top terminal speed for Scud type weapons. The Whirlwind War
https://history.army.mil/books/www/wwwapena.htm.
-With the Scuds reaching a terminal velocity of Mach 6, time was of the absolute essence in launching Patriots against them.--

To be fair, the Mach 6 figure in the above book is based on some obscure interview (You can check the references at the end of the book). It may be accurate to assume that the number is false.

The Scud can at best be classified as an early generation MRBM with a ballistic coefficient that gives it a terminal velocity similar to that calculated by @JamD for a Ghaznavi-like missile which can be also be classified as an early to mid gen BM.

The terminal velocity (in the most basic terms) depends on the weight of the missile (or atleast the part of it that is flying towards the target i.e. the re-entry vehicle). So, even if the RV re-enters the atmosphere at hypersonic speeds (>Mach 5), it will actually slow down post re-entry to attain the terminal velocity which would probably lie within the above mentioned range for the type of missile you mentioned.

Please try to be respectful when putting down someone's point instead of attacking them.