Indias times now reports on JF-17

[Energon]

Please do not feed the trolls.

 

[Keysersoze]

troll has been given a break.....back to the sensible discussion!

 

[gpit]

May want to come up with some original sarcasm...what you state has been stated by many other visiting Indians...on a related note, if you can't post anything of substance then better not post or else get used to edits. Sarcasm only goes so far.

Sour-grape can roll forever, however...

 

[blain2]

Yah. You can put the aircraft down as much as you want. The bottom line is that this is a solid 4-4.5 gen capability without the threat of sanctions. This is a luxury that most (aside from Western Europeans and Americans) never have and Pakistan certainly never had.

 

[ali786]

hopefully if it gets equipped with MBDA missiles from france along with Thales radars it can become even better,

The point is we cannot compete with india in terms of quantity, and sadly now even in some areas from the technological perspective, what Pakistan has been trying to do for some time now is to build a robust military so we rely far less on imports, whilst producing our own tech which is sufficient in quality to make India think twice about attacking.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

JF-17 has a lot of potential, don't look at it as something cheap enough to outnumber enemies. the PAF knows what the JF-17 is REALLY capable of and what it will be capable of in the near future. PAF only picks aircraft that will be able to fully carry out the needs of its skilled pilots.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

PAF knows that it has a limited amount of money to spend on the JF 17. But what it gains in the acquisition of the F 17 is way beyond what IAF could get in the purchase of a foreign aircraft.

IAF will have to learn a new technology if it choses to buy american or european planes. Learning a new technology from scratch is not an easy thing. The indians will have to turn their heads 180*---and the biggest problem they will face will that be of a 'MENTAL BLOCK' in understanding and accepting different technological setups. The brain is a fascinating thing---it does not like change---it likes to do things the easy way---it likes the things to be done theway they were done---it has a tendency to intentionally damage something new which is not fixed the way the old thing was fixed. The learning curve would be the biggest problems that the IAF is going to face. Once they get over it, that will be their starting point.

PAF on the other hand, is partners in manufacturing this plane---which means that they are way ahead in accepting and maintaining this plane in their ranks as compared to IAF. The very moment the plane is going through the production line, the builders and technicians are being trained to manufacture the bird and keep it in uptodate flying condition. So, for PAF, for all practical purposes this is a locally assembled plane---they have been involved since day one.

Another important factor is the price tag of the fighter---@ 30 to 35 million for the most well equipped sample---a great great price as compared to 80---100 million for the upcoming indian birds per piece. The IAF will get a great plane for that money, no doubt about it, no second thought about it---but PAF can buy two to three to one---also with the present day technology---bigger is not neccessarily better---it is always what comes alongwith the total package and total air combat support group---technology has been the greatest equalizer of the 20th century---where small can compete with the big on close to equal basis.

Another very important factor is the time. Time is on the side of PAF. With the JF 17, this bird is already in the ranks---6 of them will be flying on 23rd of march---and by the end of the year---there will be 12 plus in the air---what does that make---a--------.

 

[BATMAN]

Dear Mastan Khan, May I dare to ask from lay man point of view, what is the big change?
IAF essentially are the operators and after some practice they will learn the function of various keys in the cockpit.
not being funny, but common to all jets are joy stick, various measuring instruments, radar and fire control.
European, Russian and American engines may not be very in-different in response.
I believe this procurement is basically a fill gap measure, helping attract new pilots, make some head lines, get some American investment as a trade off.
In my opinion F-18 with AESA radars are serious threat and may very well tilt the balance and regional countries should consider it seriously.

 

[Cheetah786]

=trueindian;140053]Seriously JF17 is a good fighter plane.
and what can one buy for so less money?

Biggest cost to manufacture any thing is a labor cost one of the reason most Western aircrafts is expensive cause average worker in defense manufacturing makes $30/hour plus benefits that adds up to $50/hr so when you purchase that jet you have to pay for it in JF_17 case we are not paying that kind of money so the cost is lot less then Western air craft.
just as most software companies hire Indian programmers over there Western counter parts as in west programmers pay starts at $75000/yr and up compare to Indians doing it for $12000/yr are you telling me Indians suck thats why they are doing it for less.

i hope Army is not getting 10% commission from china..

How many failed projects by DRDO who was taking commission on that i bet ya it was lot more then 10% as they have nothing to show for.

India is spending 22 billion $ on defense.

Yours is bigger then ours country that is get your head out of gutter.

pakistan should also spend 10 billion

Most of our scientist don't have the option to fail so they actually produce results.in that case we can produce it for lot cheaper then buying so if we were to spend billion compare to buying from west for 5 we will have the same results.

 

[Malang]

Biggest cost to manufacture any thing is a labor cost one of the reason most Western aircrafts is expensive cause average worker in defense manufacturing makes $30/hour plus benefits that adds up to $50/hr so when you purchase that jet you have to pay for it in JF_17 case we are not paying that kind of money so the cost is lot less then Western air craft.

I think this is the reason that Western nations have high automation (and high labour productivity too) and greater use of robots...

esp in aircraft and defence equipment the human cost component is almost negligible.. (excl the outside scientific and consultant fees which are usually high irresp of place of origin) yet is also the most important...

for eg the new regional jet produced by India "Saras" is one of the more expensive ones in its class...

just as most software companies hire Indian programmers over there Western counter parts as in west programmers pay starts at $75000/yr and up compare to Indians doing it for $12000/yr are you telling me Indians suck thats why they are doing it for less.

when it comes to certain jobs where automation or artificial intelligence are unfeasible then it is desirable in having a worker who charges less..

How many failed projects by DRDO who was taking commission on that i bet ya it was lot more then 10% as they have nothing to show for.

offtopic/
I think the DRDO budget is pretty low and faces a massive attrition rate.

Yours is bigger then ours country that is get your head out of gutter.

Patience.. you do realise that person is here to vitiate the atmosphere

Most of our scientist don't have the option to fail so they actually produce results.in that case we can produce it for lot cheaper then buying so if we were to spend billion compare to buying from west for 5 we will have the same results.

Great to know that Pakistani scientists never fail.. I hope one day they publish the key to their success..

as for producing cheaper I think not for a similar product.. for eg in designing a jet plane(w/o external help and totally homegrown)

first Pakistan doesn't have any related or supporting industries or cluster geared for such a person
Pakistan will have to set up subsidaries like a metallurgical industry to produce quality metal etc.
then also using consultants, reverse engineering certain products etc.. setting up assembly lines etc....

if Pakistan is able to manage a Jet it would only be marginally if at all it is cheaper then what is produced anywhere else in the world, which perhaps doesn't really justify the cost..

my 2 cents.. thank you..

 

[Keysersoze]

just a quick point...most aircraft manufacture is not automated. parts yes. actual building is done by humans.

 

[MastanKhan]

Batman,

Why need you dare---a question is a question---and you may ask as many as you want to---

You make it look so simple that seemingly, almost anyone can maintain an aircraft and another almost anyone can fly it as well and pretty close to them anyone can enter a combat and come out victorious.

After saying all this---let me apologize for my comments. So, let me explain in a different manner. The IAF would wish that it was that simple---have you ever worked on cars in the U S---do you think a Mercedez technician can fix a Toyota Camry---or a BMW technician can fix a Nissan Maxima---. Now how about switching the japanese cars for american cars---I don't think you have any clue how big a nightmare that would be---I know it first hand---because my background is in automotive engineering---same thing holds true for the aircraft machinery as well---and the elctronics on board and how they are connected---. You know why all different makes have mechanics who specialize in their product, because there is so much diversity in different makes.

Just to give you another example---ever driven in america behind another car---did you ever notice the difference when an american car hit the breaks as compared to a japanese car---90% plus american cars rear break lights are on the same circuit as the tail light circuit---japanese cars have independent circuits for either one of them. Now cars and planes you say are not the same---but then I would say---the brain behind the design is different for each nation as well. If it wasn't----then making copies of the same standard would be so easy---easy like a pie.

As far as the pilots are concerned, it would take 3 to 5 years for IAF's top pilots to master the new aircraft whatever it maybe---so if they start getting the aircraft by 2012, rest assured that they won't be able to do the JOHN WAYNE---ie jump into the cockpit and blow the opposition to smtihreens---indeed the FA 18 radar and the aircraft would be a big threat in any scenario, but on the other hand they would not be facing any third rate / obsolete technology either.

We will have a squadron of JF 17's by the end of the year plus the awac must be coming in by the end of the year or the begining of the new year. Weapon systems would be upto date---new systems would be integrated in 3 years time alongwith a more powerful engine---Blk 52 would be on the tarmac---possibly J 10 be on its way as well. We cannot compete with the indians in their purchase power---all we can do is get our teeth sharp enough so that when we bite, it takes a big chunk off.

Keysersoze is right---there is no assembly line over here---.

Malang--pakistani scientists do fail---they are not perfect---but they fail less often---pakistan's defence industry is extremely focused on what it needs to do and how to do the job. What differentiates them from the "others" is that, first of all they believe that the wheel has already been invented---so they never get into the need to re-invent the wheel---secondly---they never want to chew onto more than what they can swallow---they firmly believe in the relay race mentality---if they can pickup the baton at the 300 meter mark in a 400 meter race, that is where they would stay at, and not go back at the 200 meter mark just to make a point. As they develop the infrastructure, they go step deeper into the manufacturing process. Pakistan defence industry is a firm believer of " ONE STEP AT A TIME " philosophy. Glory and fame is not the issue---due to extreme shortage of funds, keeping and staying in your means is the goal.

 

[KENT]

Hi,

PAF knows that it has a limited amount of money to spend on the JF 17. But what it gains in the acquisition of the F 17 is way beyond what IAF could get in the purchase of a foreign aircraft.

IAF will have to learn a new technology if it choses to buy american or european planes. Learning a new technology from scratch is not an easy thing. The indians will have to turn their heads 180*---and the biggest problem they will face will that be of a 'MENTAL BLOCK' in understanding and accepting different technological setups.

Could you briefly elaborate what kind of different technological setup are you talking about? Since whatever India is going to choose, a new addition would only be in the form of AESA or partially a supercruise. When IAF can get competence in as complex machine as MKI, then I don’t think these tidbits of MRCA are the big deal. On the top of that we choose, something like Mig-35 then your assessment hold downright invalidity since we are already producing its engine and spare parts at the home.

The brain is a fascinating thing---it does not like change---it likes to do things the easy way---it likes the things to be done the way they were done---it has a tendency to intentionally damage something new which is not fixed the way the old thing was fixed. The learning curve would be the biggest problems that the IAF is going to face. Once they get over it, that will be their starting point.

Indian has flown every kind of fighter plane acquired from UK, France, Russia, as well Indigenous planes, I never seen in my lifetime learning curve was the biggest problem for IAF.

PAF on the other hand, is partners in manufacturing this plane---which means that they are way ahead in accepting and maintaining this plane in their ranks as compared to IAF.

Not necessarily, infact whatever India is going to choose will accompanied by full TOT and will be locally produced in India itself.

The very moment the plane is going through the production line, the builders and technicians are being trained to manufacture the bird and keep it in uptodate flying condition. So, for PAF, for all practical purposes this is a locally assembled plane---they have been involved since day one.

Another important factor is the price tag of the fighter---@ 30 to 35 million for the most well equipped sample---a great great price as compared to 80---100 million for the upcoming indian birds per piece. The IAF will get a great plane for that money, no doubt about it, no second thought about it---but PAF can buy two to three to one---also with the present day technology---bigger is not neccessarily better---it is always what comes alongwith the total package and total air combat support group---technology has been the greatest equalizer of the 20th century---where small can compete with the big on close to equal basis.

But as far as ongoing MRCA selection is concerned, IAF is way ahead then PAF in this respect.

 

[Malang]

just a quick point...most aircraft manufacture is not automated. parts yes. actual building is done by humans.

Assembly is done by humans.. but then comes the topic of labour productivity.. which is generally much higher in Europe and North America than Asia...

estimated costs of a jet fighter from a caste study...



Cheetah 786: main cost component is materials.. not labour...

 

[BATMAN]

Malang--pakistani scientists do fail---they are not perfect---but they fail less often---

I dont want to start any comparison competition but look at the example of JF-17 project its completion time is a world record.
Now if we look at LCA it is also a world record in opposite direction.
Where as available resources of both coutries to pursue above projects had no parity.

These are indications that Pakistanis are not that bad if not perfect.