India's Job Crises - India’s journey from jobless to job-loss growth l Updates, News & Discussion

[Indos]

Hah !! These IT industry employees want to create employee unions now !!

I worked in an ITES company from 2013 to 2014 and almost created an union. The mistake I did was to resign. If I had not resigned, by now I could have been the leader of a federation of IT / ITES employee unions of India. Missed opportunity.

@Soumitra @Zibago @RealNapster @Mentee @Bilal9 @Moonlight @Joe Shearer @jbgt90

@Indos

Is there any Labor party in India bro ?

 

[jamahir]

@The_Showstopper, my previous post :

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/each...s-why-this-is-happening.643037/#post-11893009

Is there any Labor party in India bro ?

Well, three main political groupings : the Indian National Congress ( "Congress party" ), the Communist parties and the BJP have their own wings for trade unions.

And most sectors in trade / labor in India have employee unions, like banks, heavy industries, even government-owned public sector companies.

It is mainly the Info Tech / Info Tech Enabled Services ( IT / ITES ) companies which discourage employees from forming unions. Though I have read earlier this year that some IT employees in company in Calcutta ( Kolkatta ) city had plans of forming an union :

https://www.livemint.com/industry/i...r-trade-union-registration-1561350846144.html

https://www.business-standard.com/a...-to-form-trade-union-body-119062600520_1.html

 

[Chhatrapati]

These IT industry employees want to create employee unions now !!

Jobs are not permanent as profit is not permanent. If Unions can guarantee permanent profit then everything is fine.

 

[jamahir]

Jobs are not permanent as profit is not permanent. If Unions can guarantee permanent profit then everything is fine.

In the IT sector, a certain number of jobs could have been guaranteed if their could have been Indian IBM, Indian Microsoft, Indian Intel etc.

But Indian IT companies provide sub-sub-contracted work whose income will derive from the company that gives the original contract having enough money to contract out the work.

 

[Ali_Baba]

The fact they are looking to hire younger replacements, indicates its more about profitering then it is about reduced demand(which would filter through as reduced requirement for resources)...

Having worked with many Indian IT companies, you realise the employers treat their people like shit and generally get away with it ( and i make sure they work the extra hours on top to be sure on top ..).

The IT industry is changing, newer technologies are evolving quicker than most Indian programmers can keep up with.. and most people now realise that India is no good if you want to do anything complicated, or anything that is timebound with a delivery critical date. Most of the usecase now that i have seen, is to put an application out to pasture for its retirement into India and then use local dev resources for the next generation of your platform. For every 20 people you have on a project, 3 of them seem to know what to do, the rest... make up the numbers ...

 

[jamahir]

Having worked with many Indian IT companies, you realise the employers treat their people like shit and generally get away with it

That is true.

There have even been job-related suicides in big companies like Infosys.

and most people now realise that India is no good if you want to do anything complicated

Again true. If you want, say a new operating system to be developed, India is not the place to go, despite its hundreds of thousands of computer engineers.

 

[Bilal9]

Hah !! These IT industry employees want to create employee unions now !!

I worked in an ITES company from 2013 to 2014 and almost created an union. The mistake I did was to resign. If I had not resigned, by now I could have been the leader of a federation of IT / ITES employee unions of India. Missed opportunity.

@Soumitra @Zibago @RealNapster @Mentee @Bilal9 @Moonlight @Joe Shearer @jbgt90

@Indos

Well unionizing won't really ensure job security in the Indian IT industry.

When you are competing globally for this type of business, as the likes of companies like Infosys and Cognizant are, you are vulnerable to the demands from the likes of companies like IBM/HP etc. to cut costs dramatically, even for lower rate IT labor from India.

So - unless Infosys and Cognizant are as agile as we think they are (doubtful), they don't have a plan 'B'.

But this may change in the future. These companies are already getting the message and setting up shop in lower cost states like W. Bengal (and even across the border in Bangladesh where there are pretty large IT tech parks being set up in every major urban center), when salaries are so high in Hyderabad, Chennai, Pune etc. Business will always go where they can find the lowest cost and highest quality talent.

This is a different story compared to the apparel and shoe industry, there is no parallel. Different set of customers, different workers, different rules of business and engagement. But if you can lower costs and offer higher quality (at the same time) than the next guy, you can keep your business. In India this worked for a while, but more agile competition is emerging, and Indian companies are still too rigid to react.

The Indian IT industry is in a massive flux because of increasing automation, the vagaries of temporary downturns in the West etc. You can't get away with asking premium salary rates for IT anymore, even considering Indian IT salaries are half or less that of US salaries.

The IBM and HP's of the world know that increasingly - they have options other than India and even in India, they can always squeeze Cognizant and Infosys a little bit more to lower rates while they can.

 

[Chhatrapati]

In the IT sector, a certain number of jobs could have been guaranteed if their could have been Indian IBM, Indian Microsoft, Indian Intel etc.

But Indian IT companies provide sub-sub-contracted work whose income will derive from the company that gives the original contract having enough money to contract out the work.

So, Unions cannot guarantee profit, they can only try and preserve the jobs or ask for hikes.

Are you saying IBM and Microsoft do not layoff it's employees? They do far more than us, it happens daily. We have poor labor laws that makes it hard to fire someone.

 

[RealNapster]

Hah !! These IT industry employees want to create employee unions now !!

I worked in an ITES company from 2013 to 2014 and almost created an union. The mistake I did was to resign. If I had not resigned, by now I could have been the leader of a federation of IT / ITES employee unions of India. Missed opportunity.

@Soumitra @Zibago @RealNapster @Mentee @Bilal9 @Moonlight @Joe Shearer @jbgt90

@Indos

Hamara naita kaisa ho?
Jamahir jaisa hoo...

 

[jamahir]

Hamara naita kaisa ho?
Jamahir jaisa hoo...

Thank you, thank you.

Are you saying IBM and Microsoft do not layoff it's employees? They do far more than us, it happens daily. We have poor labor laws that makes it hard to fire someone.

Think about this : IBM-USA ( the parent company ) has employee union but IBM-India does not.

The Constitution of India says to workers that they can create or participate in employee unions but Indian IT companies discourage employees from forming union.

and even across the border in Bangladesh where there are pretty large IT tech parks being set up in every major urban center

I see.

But in my humble opinion, just replicating India but at a lower cost to clients, will not allow BD to have a sustainable IT industry. BD should create an atmosphere for research in critical things in computing like microprocessor, operating system and quantum computing.

 

[Bilal9]

I see.

But in my humble opinion, just replicating India but at a lower cost to clients, will not allow BD to have a sustainable IT industry. BD should create an atmosphere for research in critical things in computing like microprocessor, operating system and quantum computing.

IT labor in Bangladesh starting from two decades ago focused primarily on freelance labor and subcontracts (unlike Indian concentration on back-office work recently, as opposed to software development).

In Bangladesh - AutoCAD and Photoshop subcontract work was the main focus, as was various other CGI related work using various architectural packages and platforms, and including games/movie animation.

Game development and animated graphics work is a large local skillset. Bangladeshis are doing a lot of work subcontracting for Japanese, Hong Kong and Korean Animation houses, where most US content is currently developed. A lot of Disney and Sony-Universal Studios Cartoons are developed in Korea, for example.

I don't know if you've noticed, but in the Urban development thread I have, most times I post Dhaka real estate static CGI and dynamic animation for major infra-projects developed locally. The quality is pretty high if you compare it to global standards.

So Bangladesh' IT labor is not going to compete with typical Indian back-office software support model IMHO.

Microprocessor language (assembly language), OS and quantum computing development is 'Delhi door ast' for Bangladeshi talent at this time. Those are niche markets.

Local IT houses (if organized) are primarily going for services market (Tax preparation, billing, medical transcription) and freelance piece-work market (CAD, CGI, Animation, Photoshop, Desktop publishing, website development). And those sectors are booming, especially the latter. These also don't depend on the whims and market demand fluctuation vagaries from the likes of IBM and HP, so demand for work is more stable. If you have an in-demand skill to sell (like CAD or Photoshop), there will always be demand for it (unlike back-office).

There was a discussion in the Bangladesh sub-forum chill thread on this topic also. Concerning the release of a recent Single Person Shooter Video game developed in Bangladesh (GTA theme).

I posted a graphic that shows what kind of work each country is doing. Bangladesh is already in second place after India.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chill-bangladesh-thread.362263/page-98#post-11893584

 

[jamahir]

I posted a graphic that shows what kind of work each country is doing. Bangladesh is already in second place after India.

Thanks for the info-graphic.

So, BD, Pakistan and Philippines are not too far than India in "Creative and multimedia" field. And BD produces more software than USA.

Your info-graphic also mentions "Writing and translation". I used to work for a translation company.

Microprocessor language (assembly language), OS and quantum computing development is 'Delhi door ast' for Bangladeshi talent at this time. Those are niche markets.

Microprocessor design ( not manufacture / fab ) can be done by anyone really if they have the interest and ambition. It is setting up a fab unit which will take a lot of investment. Even a big company like ARM has a fabless model. It designs microprocessors and anyone who intends to use an ARM microprocessor ( like a cell phone company ) pays a license fee to ARM and then provides their own implementation of a specific ARM microprocessor to a fab in Taiwan or South Korea or China or elsewhere. So, BD can also begin research on design of microprocessors. It will just take interest and ambition. I had a discussion with @fitpOsitive on this topic just a few days ago.

 

[Chhatrapati]

Think about this : IBM-USA ( the parent company ) has employee union but IBM-India does not.

The Constitution of India says to workers that they can create or participate in employee unions but Indian IT companies discourage employees from forming union.

IBM USA employee union is not to save employees from layoffs.

Which exactly what I said, we don't have good labor laws that'd help us get more opportunities, we are stuck with useless unions whose only purpose is to start protests on minor issues or ask for hikes. Which is exactly the reason why IT companies in India discourage unions.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be employees union at all, nope, we need them. But in it's current form, the way they operate in India, we don't need such unions.

 

[jamahir]

IBM USA employee union is not to save employees from layoffs.

Which exactly what I said, we don't have good labor laws that'd help us get more opportunities, we are stuck with useless unions whose only purpose is to start protests on minor issues or ask for hikes. Which is exactly the reason why IT companies in India discourage unions.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be employees union at all, nope, we need them. But in it's current form, the way they operate in India, we don't need such unions.

I agree that in fields like manufacturing, unions sometimes create unnecessary trouble, but in IT / ITES we need unions. As @Ali_Baba said earlier in this thread, :

Having worked with many Indian IT companies, you realise the employers treat their people like shit and generally get away with it

Many Indian IT / ITES companies are quite ruthless.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Thanks for the info-graphic.

So, BD, Pakistan and Philippines are not too far than India in "Creative and multimedia" field. And BD produces more software than USA.

Your info-graphic also mentions "Writing and translation". I used to work for a translation company.



Microprocessor design ( not manufacture / fab ) can be done by anyone really if they have the interest and ambition. It is setting up a fab unit which will take a lot of investment. Even a big company like ARM has a fabless model. It designs microprocessors and anyone who intends to use an ARM microprocessor ( like a cell phone company ) pays a license fee to ARM and then provides their own implementation of a specific ARM microprocessor to a fab in Taiwan or South Korea or China or elsewhere. So, BD can also begin research on design of microprocessors. It will just take interest and ambition. I had a discussion with @fitpOsitive on this topic just a few days ago.

For arm you don't to pay any fee even to use or sell the cores. It's their support for which you have to pay.
ARM is ensuring that riscv is not taking over. But with IoT, I think whole processing arena will be shifted to quantum clouds. If local industry also adopted that then bye bye binary processors.
But some times I feel that I am just a frog in well, I know shit about the plans of learned elders of technology.