Indian troops’ presence endangers Siachen Glacier

[krash]

You make it seem as if I care about your history.
My family too escaped violence from your 'muslim" freedom fighters during partition. Understand that Kashmiri Pundits were living in that land way before you people sat on that land.
Stay in Azad Kashmir for all I care.
1. You have your azadi there
2. No one really cares, one less trouble maker to worry about

well i do understand that flaming out is the usual defense when caught defense less but sir the problem is that my questions still remain unanswered. plz take another shot at a reply.

now for your latest post...
firstly i never asked you to care about my history and the one i told was analogous to many, correction: most of us muslims living there hence not my history but history...

now for "my people came and sat on it".....my grandfather's grandfather, whos name was Pandit Mansanath (obviously a kashmiri brahman), converted to Islam. So even if i do concede your point of muslims being foriegn to kashmir i am still as pure a kashmiri as you if not more.

But i will not concede that point. If you look at the religious composition of the whole of kashmir before the partition you'll find that it was only the jammu area which held a sizable quantity of hindus (This is where those hindu pandits lived) . But that too was still a minority (55% muslims, arround 35% hindus and the rest were christians and sikhs etc). In the kashmir valley, Gilgit and Baltistan Muslims accounted for 80% of the population (i have rounded down from 90% cuz i am not quite sure that thats the exact figure). Remained Ladakh. Ladakh was, as is now, virtually uninhabited.

But you still might say that Muslims still "landed there" albeit not so recently. But im afraid that is not the case either. The people of these areas i.e. the kashmir valley, Gilgit, Baltistan, ladakh and the Jammu area are the true and ancient natives of these places. and if you know one thing about the populace of kashmir then you will know that there is no one "creed" of the kashmiri people i.e. everything about the people of Gilgit, Baltistan, Jammu, Ladakh and the kashmir valley is different (language, culture, history, ancestry and everything else. You might have heard of kashmiriat. It is a very good example). And this might make it obvious how little they have in inheritance from the outside world. Whether they are muslims or hindus they have had nothing in heritage, from the outside world, since history has been recorded their. The only import they have had has been religion and that too was in some very distant past (as is the case with almost the whole of south asia). The most recent foreign creed in kashmir would be the people of Kalash. Who are the descendants of the invading Greeks in the time of Alexander (even that is very ancient). Now if you believe that simply converting to islam made us foreigners in kashmir then i cannot argue with you (mind you even before the advent of islam in kashmir hinduism was not the majority by any means).

i believe that settles "my people living there way before your people landed their" argument.

and as for my "freedom fighters". Yes they are mine in fact I am their's. Kashmir is our land and we will fight for it till the end.

For the links i will suggest you just one source. "Modern South Asia " by Sugata Bose and Ayesha Jalal. The authers are not only Indian and Pakistani, respectively, but are also the most prominent and acknowledged historians of south asia in the world. You can check their book's and their own credibility by googling

ps: if you really are a kashmiri then the Kashmiri history is not mine or yours its ours and i am still waiting anxiously for the answers to my first post. do read up on that book you should love it and really sorry about such a long reply.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

cybertron

the pundits left for economic reasons

what's stopping them from coming back??? Or are they scared of their "own" land


In life, when your moral cause is right, you know you are righteous, stand firm and wait for Allah SWTs help and it will come un-doubtedly

the clash between moral and 'material' --- whenever it takes place --- moral always wins....no matter how weak 'moral' appears to look in the beginning


the nameless and faceless Kashmiris under occupation will one day see freedom with the flying colours......we must be patient



Krash -- thank you for your interesting post

 

[KS]

what's stopping them from coming back??? Or are they scared of their "own" land

The 'freedom fighters' fighting with external support for a mirage called 'Islamic Caliphate of Kashmir Valley' are the ones stopping them.

In life, when your moral cause is right, you know you are righteous, stand firm and wait for Allah SWTs help and it will come un-doubtedly.the clash between moral and 'material' --- whenever it takes place --- moral always wins....no matter how weak 'moral' appears to look in the beginning

What an argument wah !!! Why dont you step into a furnace saying that Allah SWT will save you based on your faith ?

Why are you fighting the TTP, Allah SWT will definitely help you if your morals are right .

the nameless and faceless Kashmiris under occupation will one day see freedom with the flying colours......we must be patient

Definitely -- once the lumpen,rogue elements and the foreign funded separatists are done away, the original sons-of-the-soil , the Kashmiri Pandit Brothers will return to their homeland

 

[krash]

What an argument wah !!! Why dont you step into a furnace saying that Allah SWT will save you based on your faith ?

Why are you fighting the TTP, Allah SWT will definitely help you if your morals are right .

i believe you skimmed over the "stand firm" part and went on to "wait for Allah SWTs help". In case you didn't then please dont mind telling us what meaning you took from it. Cause from where i stand it looks like that by "stand firm" sir Abu Zolfiqar clearly means "stand your ground" i.e. stand against the opposition, fight the opposition, keep fighting for your cause, stand for what you believe in and dont back down in action or in belief with a precondition of your belief in the cause being of true and righteous nature. Nowhere did i get the impression that by saying "stand firm" he meant "close your eyes, turn your back, hide your head and wait for Allah SWT's help". Never once did he advocate in-action instead he only preached stead fastness in a cause which one believes to be correct and righteous. And as the most basic concept of God aka Allah aka Bhagwan aka Yahweh goes He is an entity not only true and righteous in his own dealings but is also a protector and helper of those causes and people who are righteous and true. Even if one does not believe in God one can still not refute this concept as it is one of the factors defining the concept of God itself. Please tell us where do you see a problem with this as i have failed to.

Further more could you please explain where did sir Abu Zolfiqar talk about ones faith? he talked about a right moral cause which is independent of ones faith.

Definitely -- once the lumpen,rogue elements and the foreign funded separatists are done away, the original sons-of-the-soil , the Kashmiri Pandit Brothers will return to their homeland

Ah yes its easy to indulge in fallacious ad hominem so frequently. But the facts still speak of a different story. I will not further indulge in arguing your points of "rogue elements" and "the original sons-of-the-soil, the Kashmiri Pandit Brothers" and will instead request you to please be kind enough to read my previous posts and not repeat the same arguments and points which have already been answered and debunked. Instead present a rebuttal which is the only way of moving forward in any argument.

 

[LAKHNAVI]

India is illegally occupying that area.....that are belongs to Pakistan.

your double standards are quite visible now, how can an area belonging to the so called azad kashmir belong to pakistan.wsecodly you are claiming that area whereas we clame the whole kasmir.
can you explain or prove how siachin falls into pakistan's area

 

[ajtr]

First 6 months of the year ---- no pani = india stealing water=india converting pakistan into desert.

next 6 months of the year----pani hi pani=india flooding pakistan by making glacier melt fast= india bringing arabian sea shores to islamabad.

next day newspaper cartoon.......

 

[lionheart1]

See Siachen Glacier is in a strategical location. if situation come(need arises ) we can cutoff Karakoram Highway. so india will not leave an inch from the position .

 

[krash]

your double standards are quite visible now, how can an area belonging to the so called azad kashmir belong to pakistan.wsecodly you are claiming that area whereas we clame the whole kasmir.
can you explain or prove how siachin falls into pakistan's area

Sir i humbly request that you please further explain your point because iv failed to clearly understand it. But i will try to answer whatever little that i have been able to make out of it.

I believe their is some confusion regarding the word "azad". If im not wrong i believe the connotation you are referring to is "self rule, free of non-Kashmiri influence". Well that is not the complete sense of the word. Let me try to present a different definition. "Azad", as per the difinition associated with "Azad Kashmir", means life and practice observed according to one's own wishes. Simplified: to be how one him/herself wants to be. Hence the "Azad" associated with "Azad kashmir" means the Kashmir where people live according to their wishes. Now, as the Pakistani stance goes (being objective), the wishes of the Kashmiri people are of being a part of Pakistan. And since "Azad kashmir" is a part of Pakistan the wish of the kashmiri people is being catered for in Azad Kashmir. Azad Kashmir is by no means an independent entity (read state) but is, by every standard of measurement, an integral part of the sovereign state of Pakistan (as are the provinces of Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and KPK), albeit enjoying a degree of autonomy (keep in mind that Pakistan is a federation state). Issues regarding defense, currency and foreign affairs are controlled and dealt with by the federal government of Pakistan i.e. the center. Whereas the rest is handled by the Kashmiri people themselves. A look at the US states may help you understand the status of Azad Kashmir better (unless you believe that the US states aren't azad either). As per your definition of "azad" even the provinces of Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan and KPK aren't free.
fun fact: The kashmiri area held by India has its own constitution and everything.

See Siachen Glacier is in a strategical location. if situation come(need arises ) we can cutoff Karakoram Highway. so india will not leave an inch from the position .

Not quite. Infact Siachen holds no significant strategic importance whatsoever neither for Pakistan nor for India. This is the main reason why, when demarcating the LOC in the Shimla Agreement, the area of Siachin was left untouched (the LOC was not marked across Siachin). It was believed to be too remote, inaccessible, unimportant and harsh in conditions to hold any strategic importance. It was considered to be too harsh for anyone to even want to go there (let alone fight over it for many years) and hence was believed to be as a divider, between the two sides, by default. The fight over it is more of whims and egos by both the sides. It started when some foreign tourists visited the area after being granted the permission to do so by Pakistan. It was then that the Indian army launched the operation to take Siachin under its control. And in response to that (very appropriately) the Pakistani army moved in as well.

Now for "we can cutoff Karakoram Highway".... Well sir this notion is as far away from the realm of possibility and truth as are horns on the head of an east asian mathematician. This idea crosses way over the boundaries of lunacy (because of the already stated reasons). Please explain to me how you thought of this idea as a possibility. Further more the Indian army is confined to the peaks and cannot come down (they have to reinforce and resupply their posts aerially) because the Pakistani army controls the valley below. Can you not imagine what a "nightmarish" task you have suggested for the Indian army? The Indian army would be alot better advised to make any such attempts from anywhere across the LOC instead of Siachin (goodluck with that too ).

ps: seriously where did you get such an idea???

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

See Siachen Glacier is in a strategical location. if situation come(need arises ) we can cutoff Karakoram Highway. so india will not leave an inch from the position .

a key highway used by 2 opposing countries for their bilateral trade

fly above the highway and see what remains of the invading aicraft


the snow on the ground will be in sharp contrast to smoldering, carbonized metal and alloys