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Indian strategic thinking and Pakistan.

To be honest, my inspiration is from contemporary engagements, where great care was taken, pains were taken to ensure comprehensive air superiority over the opponent before venturing into the terrestrial phase of the engagement.

Fair enough. An important objective, but the question is what exactly is your timetable?

My proposal for neutralizing the threat from Pakistan, and incidentally to revert to the spirit of this thread, is that we need to recognize the relative competence and performance under pressure of the three services.

True

I believe that the PAF is the strongest service in the Pakistani military; the PN is the weakest. Therefore, fighting a war of suppression of offensive capability is best done by attacking the PA after neutralizing the PAF and the PN.

Again it depends what exactly is your time table? Do you have the luxury to take your sweet time to wipe out PN or PAF before commencing ground operations? Where does the pressure from international community fit into this? A conflict more than a week risks bringing the might of the super power and other great powers to end this conflict.

Before the commencement of ground operations in Desert Storm, NATO conducted fierce aerial bombing for more than 30 days. Even after this, C&C of Iraqi forces was still intact. Only when NATO poured boots on the ground were they able to bring Iraqis to their knees. Thus, i am not sure if the Air-Sea doctrine will serve much good to India. At best the IAF and IN can inhibit punitive strikes on Pakistan and nothing more drastic than that. I doubt it if punitive strikes will serve any good to India's objectives. She will need to bring her Armoured tanks in the front and fight it out with PA in hopes of bringing a successful conclusion. I believe simultaneous attacks from all three sides(Air, Land and Sea) will serve much better for India as compared to just striking from the Air and Sea. Simultaneous attacks does not give the enemy time to think and regroup, it forces the enemy to take action.

is such a strategic alternative available, given that the superiority available to India even a decade ago has been eroded by administrative blundering and political cupidity ? That is a moot point. Until there is a clear superiority both in technical and in numerical terms, such a strategy must fail. It is only the forced diminution of technical capability of the PAF due to their increasing stringency of resource, and the increasing diplomatic isolation of their country, that prevents them from actually taking the upper hand over the IAF.

Looking at the structure of PAF right now, i believe they are taking the right steps by adding more force multipliers instead of matching numbers with IAF. PAF budget does not allow her to equip her inventory with the top alpha dogs. Thus PAF has taken the alternative route by adding in force multipliers which enables PAF to turn her under dogs into alpha dogs. Instead of equipping every fighter with a top notch radar, they are equipping every fighter aircraft with data linking capability which enables every fighter to look deep into India. Arming nimble, agile fighters with the latest weaponry allows them to go head to head with the best that India can throw at them. Thus, PAF is on the right track. They are bridging the technological gap in fields where they believe is necessary.

Therefore, any further expansion of this concept must be understood to be hypothetical at the moment.

Indeed
 
Sadly, Sir, you are right on most points.

The Indian forces will not be given the many weeks that must elapse if it is to complete execution of a campaign against the PAF and the PN, perhaps simultaneously, then the PA, once all is done.

Fair enough. An important objective, but the question is what exactly is your timetable?

This cannot be fitted into the three-week duration that clashes in the past have lasted. It will require at least 30 days, perhaps more, for the air combats, since, as you have pointed out in your comments at the end, the PAF is not planning to roll over and play dead. The naval task might be easier, since the prime targets will be the submarine force; surface units will not survive a concentrated and focussed assault, and can be left for later.

In fact, if either the western or the northern campaigns are to succeed, they cannot be compressed into periods of weeks, but need months, or more.

If the international community does have the capability to stop hostilities in less than a month, then there is no military solution to the difficulties that are present. Then there is no alternative but to work for a permanent and lasting peace.

True

Again it depends what exactly is your time table? Do you have the luxury to take your sweet time to wipe out PN or PAF before commencing ground operations? Where does the pressure from international community fit into this? A conflict more than a week risks bringing the might of the super power and other great powers to end this conflict.

A conflict more than a week will only succeed in depleting the supplies of the opponent. It will cost both sides enormous fortunes and achieve nothing.

Before the commencement of ground operations in Desert Storm, NATO conducted fierce aerial bombing for more than 30 days. Even after this, C&C of Iraqi forces was still intact. Only when NATO poured boots on the ground were they able to bring Iraqis to their knees. Thus, i am not sure if the Air-Sea doctrine will serve much good to India. At best the IAF and IN can in
hibit punitive strikes on Pakistan and nothing more drastic than that. I doubt it if punitive strikes will serve any good to India's objectives. She will need to bring her Armoured tanks in the front and fight it out with PA in hopes of bringing a successful conclusion. I believe simultaneous attacks from all three sides(Air, Land and Sea) will serve much better for India as compared to just striking from the Air and Sea. Simultaneous attacks does not give the enemy time to think and regroup, it forces the enemy to take action.

Looking at the structure of PAF right now, i believe they are taking the right steps by adding more force multipliers instead of ma
tching numbers with IAF. PAF budget does not allow her to equip her inventory with the top alpha dogs. Thus PAF has taken the alternative route by adding in force multipliers which enables PAF to turn her under dogs into alpha dogs. Instead of equipping every fighter with a top notch radar, they are equipping every fighter aircraft with data linking capability which enables every fighter to look deep into India. Arming nimble, agile fighters with the latest weaponry allows them to go head to head with the best that India can throw at them. Thus, PAF is on the right track. They are bridging the technological gap in fields where they believe is necessary.

If we are to have a re-run of past campaigns, then we will land up with three weeks of skirmishes, tall claims by both camps, and acres of trees cut down to tell different tales of war.

More.
 
Thanks for your post Joe.

But I am completely agree to Bangalore. It is very dangerous if we believe in that way as you said.

1. They do have intelligensia but then it can always provided sheltered in case of WAR.

2. Their uniform man are decent. Decent for whom. If speaking English, having good read in literature or world at glance and then conspiring Kargil like event is decent then to hell with decency. I think you are carried away by their sorry state of affairs. Prithviraj commited same mistake by forgiving Md. gaznavi. Even their decent society is swear by his name till date. Just look at the way we are treating hurriyat in India and Pakistan treating minorties at their place. One Should not forget what their decent man done in Afganistan.

3. And Indian planners are right when they keep 80% of military resources against them. I mean even China has not done as horrendouse things to any country forget India compare to what Pakistan done to India, Afganistan.

I like your tone Joe, But your tilt is dangerous. even for you.

Regards,
sputnik

You have this right to express your hate for pakistani on pakistan defence forum unlike IDF but you are perfect example of hindu bigotry and hatred for pakistan/ pakiatan and then hindu tell us we are being taught to hate hindus in school.
 
I am again a free man, proud and independent, and bowing before nobody on earth, and am informed by the all-highest that this status will continue for the rest of the night, since dinner is over.



To be honest, my inspiration is from contemporary engagements, where great care was taken, pains were taken to ensure comprehensive air superiority over the opponent before venturing into the terrestrial phase of the engagement.

My proposal for neutralizing the threat from Pakistan, and incidentally to revert to the spirit of this thread, is that we need to recognize the relative competence and performance under pressure of the three services.

I believe that the PAF is the strongest service in the Pakistani military; the PN is the weakest. Therefore, fighting a war of suppression of offensive capability is best done by attacking the PA after neutralizing the PAF and the PN.

is such a strategic alternative available, given that the superiority available to India even a decade ago has been eroded by administrative blundering and political cupidity ? That is a moot point. Until there is a clear superiority both in technical and in numerical terms, such a strategy must fail. It is only the forced diminution of technical capability of the PAF due to their increasing stringency of resource, and the increasing diplomatic isolation of their country, that prevents them from actually taking the upper hand over the IAF.

Therefore, any further expansion of this concept must be understood to be hypothetical at the moment.

Sir,

We dont have the luxury of time to make such plans and moreover our AF is no US AF having Stealth Bombers and Pakistani AF is no Iraqi AF.Hence we have to put the Army in very early which would work together with the AF and the Navy.

I think the plan is best what has been decided in Cold Start.Our Generals have realised that we dont have the luxury of time and hence we need to act fast and achieve our objectives as soon as possible.Thats why you can see the IA working on IBGs.


 
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You have this right to express your hate for pakistani on pakistan defence forum unlike IDF but you are perfect example of hindu bigotry and hatred for pakistan/ pakiatan and then hindu tell us we are being taught to hate hindus in school.

If you have problem with what I have written then tell me, why bring religion into it. does I said anything against Islam. Regarding filling pinched. I can't do much in this. Pakistan has more than fare share in killing people in India that too on festivals in particular. tell me what u ppl have gained from it. Nothing.
 
if NE is concerned, our best strategy is being in defensive mode and absorb all thrust PLA makes and once their advance stalls, repel PLA

it would be even better if we deploy hundreds snipers (30 and 50 cal.) and MANPAD equipped soldiers

For example> generally every Indian post on peaks (in Himalayas) is manned by 8 to 10 soldiers

we can include 1 or 2 snipers in them and at same time we can include 1 MANPAD equipped soldier in them, whose only job will be targeting incoming enemy jets and helis

so our posts should have (assuming 8 soldiers per post)

1 CO
1 MANPAD equipped soldier
1 Sniper
3 Ordinary soldiers
2 soldiers handling machine guns






Best Strategy from Strategic POV

Retaining superiority on western border and remaining enough strong on eastern border, so that china cant win war in NE unless it is ready to take huge losses
 
Yours is, of course, a realistic voice, urging caution, and a conservative approach: not to be underplayed in such vital and delicate matters. Taking the wrong direction could totally founder the ship of state, and I appreciate and understand where you are coming from. However, it may not be possible to continue to maintain such bloated armed forces of such average quality and capability and effetiveness indefinitely.

Our Army musters slowly, and the Pakistanis have ample time to break off whatever they are doing and report to their stations and mobilize; thereafter, the two are matched so closely in incompetence leadership above a battalion, at best a brigade, that division-level, leave alone Corps level campaigns are unlikely (1971 was an exception, and I am pessimistic about those conditions recurring). In terms of technology and doctrine, both sides have armies that date back to the Vietnam era, only with almost no worthwhile artillery on one side. Their speed of movement is about the same, and is again several decades old. It is more or less the same story for the respective Air Forces; the PAF has lost its technical edge over the IAF due to a shortage of money, but th IAF has lost its numerical edge thanks to the death-wish of the country's political classes. Only the IndianNavy has a thin edge over its rivals, and it is not much, not enough to win wars.

We can either radically re-design and re-orient the armed forces, with a smaller, far more mobile (by an order of magnitude) Army, packing far more fire power than today, tightly integrated with tactical air power on land and with a serious marine amphibious capability at sea, or we forget about resolving any problems militarily, and have to adopt your recommended clenched teeth stance.

Let us return to this choice after addressing your points.

We can & we must. It is simply not our concern & it is downright dangerous to believe it is. We also put at risk any chance of success they may have in steering Pakistan away from the hardliners if we are seen to be their allies.

My suggestion was not to mount loud and visible campaigns of support to the liberals; that would be the kiss of death for any section of society in Pakistan. Instead, it was to do nothing to play into the hands of the hardliners; that will not help in any foreseeable way.

Without doubt they are decent people but we simply are in no position to do anything for them.

There is no implication of 'doing' something for them. The point is to make a permanent and lasting peace, or to fight a decisive and defining war. Anything but this imitation of a Russian peasant determined to last through all of life's miseries.

Whilst agreeing in theory, it is simply hard for anyone to influence Pakistan's eventual course or choice of destination & even more so from India. To defend ourselves, it is imperative that we leave all muddle headedness out of our thinking & act on very simple & basic premises.

It seems we are agreed in principle so far, but cannot find a common approach forward. Let us see. I agree with you about the muddle-headedness, but put it to you that to endure in patience is hardly guaranteed to improve this situation. That, in my humble opinion, is muddle-headedness.

It serves us to find ways to contain the threat rather than opt for either retaliation (may still become necessary) or close engagement. Terrorism emanating from Pakistan (atleast at the level it is now) is more damaging to Pakistan & its cause than it is to India regardless of the loss of lives that will unfortunately take place. In a very odd manner, the terrorism emanating from Pakistan removes any premise of morality from Pakistani arguments & causes a substantial part of the population to be less gung-ho about the cause. Time is India's greatest asset & Pakistan's enemy. Peace will only come when the causes that separate us become less relevant(not irrelevant, just less relevant). For that to happen, Pakistan must see India moving further & further away from them on the economic scales. That alone will cause some rethinking in their priorities. The best we can hope for is a forced calm, imagining anything else at this point risks putting our population in harm's way.

Is there any guarantee that this will happen, that our increasing prosperity will set the Pakistani man in the street thinking, and bring about a radical change in the structure of that state?

Will the man in the street, and the rational elements of Pakistani society (which elements I tend to identify with the liberals and moderate servicemen and administrators) be able to counter the flood of money from Saudi Arabia and the UAE, and thwart the increasing radicalization of Pakistani society?

For that matter, will the man in the street and rational Pakistanis severe the link between the deep state and the terrorist apparatus? Even now, there is a demented person suggesting that they continue with this policy of retaining their irregulars, as being an effective part of the order of battle for them.

Leaving aside the me-too motif, which will motivate Pakistanis to seek more economic prosperity such as India's and will cause a change in heart, or the name-and-shame motif, where the increasing isolation of Pakistan will force her to introspect, if we wait for condemnation of Pakistan to increase, what should we hope for as a practical outcome?

Sir,

We dont have the luxury of time to make such plans and moreover our AF is no US AF having Stealth Bombers and Pakistani AF is no Iraqi AF.Hence we have to put the Army in very early which would work together with the AF and the Navy.

I think the plan is best what has been decided in Cold Start.Our Generals have realised that we dont have the luxury of time and hence we need to act fast and achieve our objectives as soon as possible.Thats why you can see the IA working on IBGs.

I am not so sure that what we have today will take us one millimetre ahead of where we were for the last forty years. Will Cold Start speed up the average speed of a combat formation? Will IBGs fight better with identical weapons inventories and firepower?
 
So far the discussion has thrown up many very interesting points.

India's policy at regional/geo-strategic level evolves in a manner that, while improving relations with China, deal with Pakistan upfront. This apparently is also undertaken to avoid a two front war.

With the US shifting political and military emphasis to Asia, India has gained in certain aspects and lost ground in attainment of some of her objectives. On the Chinese front, it has gained importance and is being asked by US and the West to assert itself, which Indian strategists are reluctant to indulge in. This in my opinion has become a dilemma for India. She wants US and Western support in enhancing her economy and stature at the world forums, while at the same time does not to want fight for them in their efforts to contain China.

Against Pakistan, India wants US and Western support to achieve her aims. However some of the American and Western interests do not allow them to push Pakistan in a manner which could help India attain her objectives. Here also, it places India in a dilemma.

In all this imbroglio, India's military strategy attempts to ready itself to simultaneously fight a two front war, in case such an environment arises. This is done to prepare for the worst case scenario.

However, if there is a war with Pakistan only, some forces deployed on Chinese front can be made available for Pakistan and conversely, if a war only with China has to be fought, some forces can be shifted from Pakistani to Chinese front.

In case a simultaneous two front war occurs, India first intends to deal with Pakistan and regain its lost territory from China after defeating or neutralizing Pakistan. Therefore, against Pakistan, India has to fight and win or neutralize in a certain time-frame, which makes the war short and violent.

Conversely in such a scenario, in case of China, India has to prepare and fight for a comparatively longer period of time. War with China in this case would not be short, no matter how violent it may be.

It is for this reason India is probably raising additional forces for Chinese front to either do not allow the Chinese to capture large chunk of territory or to keep the ingress limited. So that when the forces are available from the Pakistani front, they are shifted and regain the losses.

Here, the importance of current deployment and disposition of Indian Armed Forces is revealed and is understood. The problem in land battle would arise from the deployment of air assets. Against Pakistan, India has around 29-30 airbases. Against China, these are only around 9. These 9 or so bases can house a limited number of aircraft for the types of missions needed against China. And as @Joe Shearer also says, that though he wishes India to attain air superiority against China, it may not be really possible, irrespective of the number of air to air refuelers it possess.

Positing the nuclear factor and Indian Naval operations based on sea denial against China and Pakistan will also be an interesting discussion.

correct analysis

induction of C 130s and C 17 IIIs is aimed at increasing ability of IA to rapidly transfer heavy equipment like light tanks, APCs and M 777 howitzers to eastern border and C 130 will mainly be used for this purpose as it requires short (comparatively) runways.

for this reason, i think CH 47 will be bought as it can operate at 18,000 ft + heights, thus can easily be deployed to deploy and move soldiers and equipment on IA posts situated in mountainous areas in NE

on other hand, C 17s will play same role on western border where IA objective will be defeating PA and PAF with joint efforts of IA and IAF

both PA and IA will use their cruise missiles to take out enemy assets and brahmos will be used extensively i think

IN, on other hand will be protecting India's maritime borders and may launch operation to blockade Karachi port
 
It has been correctly stated that the logistics capability of the PLA is its greatest military asset against India, much more so than against any other adversary. The asymmetry is so great that one has to go back 140 years to find a similar situation, and then the similarities are hair-raising. What were the mistakes the French made in 1871? Are those mistakes replicable in today's situation on India's northern frontiers? Does the Indian Army find itself compelled by political pressure (and by pressure from Internet patriots) to defend every last rock, every last ravine? Does it have the equivalent of Belgium, a supposedly neutral country vulnerable to the slightest pressure that is capable of compromising the core of the Indian defensive structure? Is it inclined to give battle entirely within India, thus releasing the PLA to select its point of attack?

In one word, can India guard against China as things stand today?

The answer regretfully must be No, both for the reasons that might be collated from answers to the questions put above, and from the point of view of India's vulnerability to a simultaneous attack on the west. The answers to India's strategic vulnerability in the north lie entirely on its success in neutralizing the threat in existence to the west.

in my opinion, post 2014 Afghanistan and its stance on Durand line has also to be taken in account

Taliban demanded redrawing of Durand line and Taliban will be in post 2014 Afghan govt

if India keeps good very close relation with this govt (read offering them share of profit we get from investment in Afghanistan's resources), especially "good" Taliban, Taliban may not let Pak use Taliban assets and Afghan land for proxy war against India

furthermore like in past, if they demand redrawing of Durand line which leads to tensions on AfPak border, Pak will (may be forced) to deploy 4 to 6 divisions on those border permanently which will reduce their strength on their eastern front, which will be beneficial for India

correct me if i am wrong, Joe sir :)
 
in my opinion, post 2014 Afghanistan and its stance on Durand line has also to be taken in account

Taliban demanded redrawing of Durand line and Taliban will be in post 2014 Afghan govt

if India keeps good very close relation with this govt (read offering them share of profit we get from investment in Afghanistan's resources), especially "good" Taliban, Taliban may not let Pak use Taliban assets and Afghan land for proxy war against India

furthermore like in past, if they demand redrawing of Durand line which leads to tensions on AfPak border, Pak will (may be forced) to deploy 4 to 6 divisions on those border permanent which will reduce their strength on their eastern front, which will be beneficial for India

correct me if i am wrong, Joe sir :)

It is emphatically not a question of wrong or right evaluation of a situation. However, on moral grounds, there might be some question of right and wrong.

First, we have supported a democratic, elected government. It is not much of a government, but it says that it is democratic, which is a huge step forward from an avowed dictatorial, or totalitarian form. Should we abandon it? Are we quite so sure that it will fail?

Second, the converse of this is that the Taliban may not win; are we not running the risk of backing a horse that may not leave the starting gate?

Third, their arguments with Pakistan may not be as profound as some of us might have predicted. At the end of the day, what guarantee is there that they will put pressure on Pakistan?

I think the Taliban are too dicy to factor into any long-term plan.
 
@ Joe Shearer

Only the Indian Navy has a thin edge over its rivals, and it is not much, not enough to win wars.

The Indian navy has a huge advantage over the Pakistan navy and even the Pakistan defence analysts have went on to the extent of saying that comparing Indian navy to Pakistan navy is not fair.

The advantage is such that we can effectively force a blocade and suffocate their sea routes supplies which could help us in achieveing our objectives quickly.

We can either radically re-design and re-orient the armed forces, with a smaller, far more mobile (by an order of magnitude) Army, packing far more fire power than today, tightly integrated with tactical air power on land and with a serious marine amphibious capability at sea, or we forget about resolving any problems militarily, and have to adopt your recommended clenched teeth stance.

It is already happening.

We already have amphibious brigades in the IA and the navy will soon be raising a force equivalent to the Marines of The US and the video i posted in my last post already says the Army is practising excercises with small battle groups which have access to real time SAT imagery.


I am not so sure that what we have today will take us one millimetre ahead of where we were for the last forty years. Will Cold Start speed up the average speed of a combat formation? Will IBGs fight better with identical weapons inventories and firepower?

I totally disagree with you here.

If you have read about the F-INSAS & Cold Start then you would realise that the Army is going to be completely changed in the next few years with focus beinng on C4I,EW capabilites,Real time SAT coverage of the battlefield and tri services synergy etc.

These IBG are not only supposed to be more mobile but lethal too which will be supported by attack helicopters and real time imagery will be sent to Tank commanders,Attack helis etc from the Data link either by SATs or UAVs.
 
It is emphatically not a question of wrong or right evaluation of a situation. However, on moral grounds, there might be some question of right and wrong.

First, we have supported a democratic, elected government. It is not much of a government, but it says that it is democratic, which is a huge step forward from an avowed dictatorial, or totalitarian form. Should we abandon it? Are we quite so sure that it will fail?

Second, the converse of this is that the Taliban may not win; are we not running the risk of backing a horse that may not leave the starting gate?

Third, their arguments with Pakistan may not be as profound as some of us might have predicted. At the end of the day, what guarantee is there that they will put pressure on Pakistan?

I think the Taliban are too dicy to factor into any long-term plan.

my point is they wont assist Pak in proxy war against India,If India offers them share of profit gained from investment in Afghanistan

do you remember a news quoting Taliban assuring India that Afghan land will not be used for activities against India?


if they just do this, even then it will be big relief for us

however they will demand redrawing of Durand line,like they did in past, if things go as I believe

if the tension between post 2014 Kabul and Islamabad rises to much, its possible that Pak may deploy 4 to 6 of its divisions permanently on AfPak border

thus in case of possible war with India, Pak wont be able to use these divisions and have to consider possibility of Taliban launching large scale attack through waves of thousands of small units consisting of Taliban soldiers in case of Indo Pak war, hoping to win

this may result in Pak remaining neutral in possible Sino India war

this is my guess. i could be wrong, though
 
It is advisable, I think, to be skeptical about one's strength, and respectful about the strength of the opposition. Please read my previous comments and comments in response to you in that light.

@ Joe Shearer

The Indian navy has a huge advantage over the Pakistan navy and even the Pakistan defence analysts have went on to the extent of saying that comparing Indian navy to Pakistan navy is not fair.

Can we guarantee the safety of our surface units against their submarine forces? Can we mount an effective blockade without it being shot up by their submarines?

The advantage is such that we can effectively force a blocade and suffocate their sea routes supplies which could help us in achieveing our objectives quickly.

Please read notorious_eagle's objections. He points out, correctly, that in today's conditions, we may not have the permission of the superpower to blockade Pakistan. Until they evacuate Afghanistan, they will certainly not permit it. Even afterwards, will they sit around and allow this to happen when such actions might be replicated against their interest elsewhere?

Regarding the blockade itself, I had similar thoughts till I sat down with a map and a calculator.

1. Where would the blockade line be placed?
2. How would it distinguish between shipping bound for Karachi, and shipping bound for Bandar Abbas, Basra, Kuwait or Dubai?
3. If it is close enough to Pakistani shores to avoid detaining any but clearly Karachi-bound shipping, what would be its distance from shore? What is the range of a Silkworm missile?
4. By putting every last surface ship into the blockade line, we can deploy 8 destroyers and 14 frigates (and 24 corvettes). What if a PLAN task force with around that number, say, with 15 destroyers (out of 27) and 20 frigates (out of 50), wants to sail through? Should we look at fighting a 3 front war?


It is already happening.

We already have amphibious brigades in the IA and the navy will soon be raising a force equivalent to the Marines of The US and the video i posted in my last post already says the Army is practising excercises with small battle groups which have access to real time SAT imagery.

As it happens, due to my keen personal interest in the Navy, this was a welcome development when I read about it, but you will agree that they are not yet battle-ready. Perhaps in a couple of years, and with properly formed amphibious task forces, which take a lot of resource, more than we have at the moment.




I totally disagree with you here.

If you have read about the F-INSAS & Cold Start then you would realise that the Army is going to be completely changed in the next few years with focus beinng on C4I,EW capabilites,Real time SAT coverage of the battlefield and tri services synergy etc.

These IBG are not only supposed to be more mobile but lethal too which will be supported by attack helicopters and real time imagery will be sent to Tank commanders,Attack helis etc from the Data link either by SATs or UAVs.

My doubts are very basic, and I will distill them into one heretical comment:

Is the tank outmoded technology?

my point is they wont assist Pak in proxy war against India,If India offers them share of profit gained from investment in Afghanistan

do you remember a news quoting Taliban assuring India that Afghan land will not be used for activities against India?


if they just do this, even then it will be big relief for us

however they will demand redrawing of Durand line,like they did in past, if things go as I believe

if the tension between post 2014 Kabul and Islamabad rises to much, its possible that Pak may deploy 4 to 6 of its divisions permanently on AfPak border

thus in case of possible war with India, Pak wont be able to use these divisions and have to consider possibility of Taliban launching large scale attack through waves of thousands of small units consisting of Taliban soldiers in case of Indo Pak war, hoping to win

this may result in Pak remaining neutral in possible Sino India war

this is my guess. i could be wrong, though

I think it is an interesting speculation at this stage, and that we need to wait and see how events turn out, but assuming that this happens, they will be a nuisance for the PA at worst. They will not win or lose the war.
 
The discussion has been floating between the necessity of peace in India and Pakistan imbroglio, the use of democracy and enhancing people to people contacts, to civilizational conflict between the two, to outright defeat of Pakistan and denying victory to China due to India’s acquisition of superior and hi-tech weaponry and air-left capability etc etc. Very interesting indeed.

Indian Army Chief says (video clip posted above), we are looking at an Army which is, more lethal, more agile, technologically superior and can work in a totally network centric environment with all the services. The reporter says, it is driven by the need of totally asymmetric and hybrid wars, having enormous advantages in communication and surveillance technologies and downloading real-time imageries from an Indian satellite passing overhead.

Some posters talk about IN superiority and that it can effect a naval blockade of Pakistan. The most interesting is that Indian Army is practising excercises with small battle groups which have access to real time SAT imagery.

Let me put across my point of view, not on all the aspects discussed but some of these. I will attempt to give my thoughts on remaining aspects in later posts, if I can.

Firstly, in my opinion we have to discuss the future Indo-Pak war within the ambit of nuclear environment. We can not separate the conventional and nuclear capabilities and arrive at logical conclusions. Emotions aside, we need to awaken ourselves to this fact, that these are two nuclear armed neighbours.

The conclusion of Indian civil and military hierarchy that space for a limited conventional war still exists, needs to be re-evaluated. The warfare between the two has drastically changed with nuclear advent. Irrespective of the fact that whether Pakistan uses tactical nuclear weapons or indulge in tactical use of nuclear weapons, any future war limited or otherwise, between India and Pakistan would not be free of nuclear factor. Many may disagree with me. However, Pakistan’s clear signal, of testing the short range nuclear capable missile, need to be taken into serious context. It is not the missile testing but the reason behind this test which is more important.

In the same context, stating that a superior Indian Navy may affect a naval blockade of Pakistan and would not expect a nuclear response from Pakistan, may be a serious flaw in thinking. An article posted by Jinx1 in another thread needs to be read. Read only the types of nuclear thresholds the author highlights, and you may ignore some of his biases.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...g-pakistan-s-nuclear-thresholds-analysis.html

Secondly, I agree with what the Indian Army Chiefs states above, however I would like to dwell on one aspect here. He says, we are looking to work in a totally network centric environment with all the services. It may be a very very long term goal indeed.

Currently, only the US Military can claim to a great extent, that they can work in a totally network centric environment. There is no other country in the world which can claim the same thing. Some of the NATO countries, instead of claiming to be network centric, because they are not capable of, use the terminology of network enabled warfare. Total network centricity is indeed a very tall order. And in my opinion, and many US defence analysts agree to this fact that, even the US Military is not totally network centric at this moment.

Let me briefly highlight why!
Predator UAVs have a 200 Kbps outbound channel for command and control and a 3.2 Mbps return channel for data dissemination. The power equivalent bandwidth on the satellite necessary to support such a configuration is about 10 MHz. The Global Hawk UAV, with operational data rates of up to 50 Mbps in the return channel, requires a full satellite transponder or more to support such a data rate.

The evolution of UASs and sensors means they will demand increasing amounts of bandwidth over time. A Predator currently has a primary 3.2-megabit (Mbps) return, but that will increase to 6.4 Mbps and over the next few years, planners expect it to increase further to 16 Mbps and eventually to 45 Mbps by fiscal year 2015. Global Hawks can operate at data rates of up to 50 Mbps today, but they too will dramatically increase their requirements over time, eventually reaching 274 Mbps.

This even today forces the US to hire civilian satellites for provision of connectivity as their Military satellites can not support it.

So when some here talk about a tank commander receiving real-time satellite imagery in his tank, needs to seriously understand this schmuck. The CO of an advancing US armour regiment in Iraq, explained to a congressional hearing that he had to halt and wait for almost 2-3 hours to download the updated battle plan. Can you imagine this happening to a US tank regiment CO.

We need to understand the difference between a network in our offices and a network out in the field. Wishful thinking doesn’t solve the problems and result in being surprised. And when the Indian Army Chief talks about superior technology, he also means understanding the technology and therefore knowing where and how it can be employed.

More later please.
 
It is advisable, I think, to be skeptical about one's strength, and respectful about the strength of the opposition. Please read my previous comments and comments in response to you in that light.

Sir,

I was only replying to your doubts on whether the IBGs can fight better than before or not and what difference it can make in the battlefield than before.

I have never said that we can win easily or can fight 2 front wars easily but i believe we are taking the required steps necessary for safe guarding our interests in the future.
 
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