Indian Special Forces

[arcelite]

Were comparing a Terrorist Front to our intelligence agency.....<_>

Google Image Result for http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/reuters/2012-07-07t135946z_1301960731_gm1e8771oob01_rtrmadp_3_kashmir.jpg

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New pics although 3rd is possible repost

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[Sergi]

Were comparing a Terrorist Front to our intelligence agency.....<_>

Which terrorist front ??? Name please

 

[arcelite]

ISI my dear Sergei ISI

 

[david blain]

I think we are stuck in LABLEING things that may be the problem here.
What I understand RAW can use any asset in India. Be it IA/IN/IAF.
SFF is directly under RAW. SG is IA element attached to SFF. I think everybody agree till here.

I think I clearly mention two terms in my previous posts. " Operators" and "operatives"
Operators are SG guies - IA guies
Operatives are local area assets - in warlord countries these are Mercenaries and in civilised world these are sleeping modules.
These Operative units are very small and have only one way communication through their OPERATORS.
So we can't label them as SG. But the operators who handle these units are SG guies. So may be they are considered as part of SG

Last thing and repeating it again. Any job that SF can do by itself is done by SF only. Operatives are for Hit and Run mission.

I don't think any nation will accept legally that they Operate Mercenaries. It's against golden rule. But they have to do this dirty game.


You don't need to be sorry my friend. It's normal that we need facts to belive something

I tried to explain above ^^^ what I understand.
But seriously, will any force make a documentation that they operate Mercenaries these guies are barbarians. to kill is their profession sometimes for money. How you gona justify such operations to civilised world who belive in Human Rights ???

Hmm it means what we can belive is that india used this mercenaries where we cant send SF directly. they are more like a paid assasins or local mafia but We disagree with that those mercenaries are traind by india have read in a post ...

True that. But IA giving central Asian mercenaries high level ultra advanced training and tactics...I dunno if thats really a good thing.
Original PostBy MUHARIB

or i hope it isnt rite ....Any way there is no offence to anyone we are discussing here not argueing ....

By the way any news abt Maulana masood azahar i mean havent heard anything abt JM since long .... is it somehow related to our discussion

 

[Sergi]

a paid assasins or local mafia but We disagree with that those mercenaries are traind by india have read in a post ...

Depends on the cause. General logic is "Enemy of enemy is a friend". If we can't find such FRIENDS then Money option.

As i said earlier I don't think they are trained like SFs. Just some fine touching and weapons. Most of these guies ( paid ) are professionals.

 

[david blain]

Actually all these are very confusing ( though we can call it an achivment ) we can ralate some events to ths at the same time we wonder certain target havent achived ....

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

What i am saying with regard to that legal document being show is that it was stated that Special Group is Vikas Unit which means there is no other Special Group..Maybe there is some other group under Raw which has foreigners and who are mistaken for being SG.I believe SG ie Vikas Unit is a group of Indian Elite SF operatives that operate in Kashmir and N-E and comprise of Army SF and maybe some Marcos...and this is what i will keep believing till i see some hard facts stating otherwise and everyone has the right to have their own views.

Secondly,SFF is not some International unit on the lines of french foreign legions where any tom,dick harry gets hired.It was raised as a anti-China unit with Tibetians serving in it..Try to understand the purpose of raising it.Its not that some fine day a RAW Director though of having some fancy International unit with operatives from every continent.

Even if we have hired foreign mercenaries doesnt mean that we will consider them our elite SF..i mean they are hired for a purpose..Its a kind of Use and Throw thing.

Lastly,my impression of a defence forum after having discussions on Ghataks and Para SF is that after reading a internet link everyone starts assuming things which are not...I mean it was so hard to prove a simple thing like The Para took part in the last Indo US excercise..Thanks to youtube videos or i would have still been arguing that the SF indeed took part...and in this case i rest my case here...I think its for everyone to judge after reading so much about Indian SF because in the end we all are assuming and there is no solid proof and there would never be.

Cheers

 

[Sergi]

I think its for everyone to judge after reading so much about Indian SF because in the end we all are assuming and there is no solid proof and there would never be.

Cheers

And never should be

The third Paraghraph of your post is what I am trying to say from yesterday.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

And never should be

The third Paraghraph of your post is what I am trying to say from yesterday.

The thing is we had such teams in the past but after I k Gujrals decision we lost every capabilty we had there.I mean we used to have 2 hit teams in Pakistan..1 was for Khalistan movement and the other for Pakistan..but currently we lack any such capabiity after a great follishness by I K Gujral and neither do i think Manmohan Singh will ever give a go ahead for such a thing.

Actually all these are very confusing ( though we can call it an achivment ) we can ralate some events to ths at the same time we wonder certain target havent achived ....

Kindly read this to know the answers to all your questions


Why Indian intelligence doesn't work too well in Pakistan - Times Of India

 

[Sergi]

A worthy link to read. It's from google books so you won't see all the pages. But images are good. If anyone can post them here

Elite Forces of India and Pakistan - Kenneth Conboy - Google Books

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

A good read on the SFF!

India Paramilitary Forces: Special Frontier Force
v.1.0 May 5, 2002
Ravi Rikhye

Forty years after its creation under the code name 22 Establishment, the Special Frontier Force remains the subject of much speculation and little concrete information.

An initial sanction of 3 battalions was increased to six, possibly in the late 1960s. At least one additional battalion, the 7th, stationed with XXXIII Corps in the Northeast, was added, but we do not know when.

The SFF was intended to gather intelligence on Chinese military movements along the Indo-Tibet border, and this it did, sometimes by means as unsophisticated as stationing small teams on a snowy mountain top with a radio through the winter. In the event of war, operating in companies, the SFF is to provide forward screens for the Indian Army, and to fall back once the direction and strength of the attack are clearly established. The force is paratroop trained, and would also be used to conduct conventional airborne assaults ahead of ground forces in areas such as the Aksai Chin, as well as unconventional warfare.

How much of this special forces capability the SFF retains today is impossible to say. In the 1999 Kargil operations, one battalion fought as straight infantry. It is likely that much of its job today is simply as scouts.

The SFF recruits both ethnic Tibetans and Gorkhas. While Tibetans can and do become officers, regular army officers on deputation to the SFF provide its backbone.

Under the Indian setup, the &#8220;Cabinet Secretariat&#8221; controls the SFF. The Cabinet Secretariat does exist as an organization, roughly comparable to the US White House staff. When applied to the SFF, however, the term is a euphuism for the Research and Analysis Wing, India&#8217;s external intelligence agency. This is akin to putting the US Special Forces under the CIA or 22 SAS under MI-6, and we don&#8217;t need to remind readers familiar with the Vietnam War how much potential there is for abuse in such a system.

Such abuse did, in fact, occur in the 1980s when the highly secretive agency was &#8220;outed&#8221; in the Indian press. Apparently the units at headquarters at Chakrata (near Dehradun) in Utter Pradesh had been gunning down any game that came within their sights, protected or not, using their aircraft for smuggling, and generally drinking and raising Cain. Despite talk of disbanding SFF, it was told to clean up and continue with its work. The misbehavior is hardly surprising, given that ultimately the force reports to a bunch of bureaucratic spymasters, and that it has spent decades doing nothing. The kind of illegal cross border operations used to trigger a China-India war in the Dragonfire fictional scenario was firmly clamped down on decades ago.

The battalions in the field, of course, are under operational control of the army and must meet its training standards. After the 1971 War India stood down a considerable fraction of China deployed forces in Tibet: 3 Division was left with only two brigades facing the Chinese, and each brigade had two regular and one Vikas Force battalion. Vikas Force is the cover name under which the SFF operates.

On the limited information we have, the SFF deployment appears to be:

- two battalions in Ladakh

- one battalion in Himachal

- one battalion in Utter Pradesh

- two battalions in Arunachal Pradesh

That leaves one battalion unaccounted for; we do not know if the SSF&#8217;s regimental center claims one battalion number, or if one battalion at a time rotates through the training center, or one battalion is stationed at another part of the front.

India Paramilitary Forces: Special Frontier Force

 

[Sergi]

Why Indian intelligence doesn't work too well in Pakistan - Times Of India

Good find all points have been covered.

Ask an Indian intelligence official about the challenge involved in tracking Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives inside Pakistan and they all give the same answer . Most officers who have served in Pakistan say that India has the capability to hit the terror group in Pakistan, but the government doesn't allow such covert actions. "We don't do covert operations like the CIA, MI6 and Mossad. This doesn't mean that we don't have the capability. Given a chance, we could prove equal to all these agencies," says a former officer.

But sources in the R&AW , India's external agency, say India lacks both political will and the capability to carry out a hit inside Pakistan. "We do not have the mandate to do what Mossad does. Our charter does not include the job of getting (or assassinating) people from other countries. If such political will is there, the agency would be able to do it," says a senior RAW official.
In fact, over the past two decades the agency has even lost some of its capability for covert operations abroad. "During the 1980s, the agency used to have two Counter Intelligence Teams (CITs) in Pakistan: one targeting the country and the other targeting Khalistani militant infrastructure. However, during Prime Minister I K Gujral's time, both these teams were dismantled and the extensive human intelligence network in Pakistan was scaled down," says another official. "Done purely on moral grounds, this severely affected our capability. That structure h a s a s yet not been restored as the political class here believes that covert operations spoil bilateral relations," he adds. The agency, sources say, now conducts operations primarily by paying money to local operatives in Pakistan instead of its own agents. But such groups can't hit out at ISI-protected figures like Hafiz Saeed and Dawood Ibrahim. Another former officer , who has spent a considerable time studying these outfits, attributes it to the fundamental difference between India and Pakistan in dealing with espionage. "It takes a great deal of money and time to cultivate sources in foreign soil. We don't have either in plenty, unlike countries in the West. Pakistan's ISI is better off in this as the state sponsors terrorism ," he says.

In order to surmount the challenges on the ground, most intelligence officers believe that they need better equipment for surveillance as well as the go-ahead for covert tactics. "The direction finders we used before would give us kilometre per square information about somebody we wanted to track. We knew he was there somewhere but couldn't pinpoint his location. Now, of course, we have better technology . But if you pit it against what the Americans use, there is a lot of catching up to do. However, even with smarter technology we cannot do much unless our government allows us to do covert operations. You will see the difference then."

 

[david blain]

now conducts operations primarily by paying money to local operatives in Pakistan instead of its own agents. But such groups can't hit out at ISI-protected figures like Hafiz Saeed and Dawood Ibrahim.

any example ? by the way list of indians wanted by pakistan

(7) Rajan Nikhalje alias Chhota Rajan, wanted for a number of terrorist attacks in different cities of Pakistan including a bomb blast in Sabzi Mandi Islamabad and a bomb blast in Quetta. Chhota Rajan is now launching terrorist operations in Pakistan from Indian Missions in Kandahar and Jalalabad (Afghanistan) and is head of RAW&#8217;s organized Crimes Wing or Special Operations Division (SOD), he is also wanted for killing of Chinese Engineers in Baluchistan and organizing the murder of some Chinese workers near Peshawar

Its a fake news but i still like it

 

[Sergi]

any example ? by the way list of indians wanted by pakistan



Its a fake news but i still like it

Dude don't you think you are asking too much
I am myself surprised to read that TOI article. TOI is known to hide the facts better than anything else in India. If we know all the things then what kinda secrate the secrate organisation Will be

 

[david blain]

Dude don't you think you are asking too much
I am myself surprised to read that TOI article. TOI is known to hide the facts better than anything else in India. If we know all the things then what kinda secrate the secrate organisation Will be

Lol.....jai hind