Indian Special Forces

[arcelite]

Yup something like nest.

In 1st pic the nsg has this if you can see a guy carry something right hand

Google Image Result for http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ppi.jpg

 

[Abingdonboy]

3rd pic is of CRPF conducting HAZMAT training:

 

[arcelite]

last pic if anyone could enlarge here i'd be grateful

The helmets are Maskha BTW + in the last one I believe they have a Visor on the second guy

The guys with blue uniform are Desi version of NEST

 

[Abingdonboy]

last pic if anyone could enlarge here i'd be grateful

The helmets are Maskha BTW + in the last one I believe they have a Visor on the second guy

GOT IT!!

Looking pretty good!

 

[Koovie]

Wow looks awesome! We have made some good progress in upgrading CT forces (NSG, CRPF Cobras, and most state police forces)
But unfortunately it allways takes a painful wake up call like 26/11

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

You are pretty right here. It's ^^^ a standard procedure of IA. No doubt.
I think our definations of COIN/CIOs aren't matching

QRT/SRT/Ghatakas are in every company. Agree. But they move only on intel. They are "Reaction teams" ,Right ???
What I am saying is CIOs/COIN guies "search and hunt" and they are SF or may be Ghataks. if you think my idea of COIN is wrong please tell me. Don't hesitate to say I am WRONG. I will like to correct myself

I will have a chance to interact with him in "Diwali". He is a hard nut to crack though I will share whatever he allow me to. But I have a feeling that he might not like PDF

Edit: I was searching for COIN defination but find this on wiki. Give it a try


The Counter Insurgency and Jungle Warfare School (CIJW) in Vairengte, Mizoram, India is a training and research establishment of the Indian Army specializing in unconventional warfare, especially counter-insurgency and guerrilla warfare. CIJW is one of the premier counter-insurgency training institutions in the world.[2] The school's motto is to "fight the guerrilla like a guerrilla".

Counter-insurgency and Jungle Warfare School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The thing is the IA would never send their teams for ops unless and until there is an intel coz there is no point spending a night in some forest expecting something to happen.So the thing is most of the time it will only be reaction teams.

I think you are not getting the complete picture of operations in Kashmir.The operation i previously mentioned was in an urban environment operation now suppose we have a situation which you suggest is a different concept where in the Team is carrying out an Ambush.So what is the first thing when it is decided that an Ambush will be laid??...It is the Intel(right?)..After getting Intel a QRT will be sent on the location and a ambush will be set according to the intel like which path are the likely to take,what will be the strength like etc...Now do you know that most of the time the guy who gives the Intel is a surrendered militant or a villager and he is supposed to go with the team in the operation...so now what will you call it coz this is also a reaction team?but it is also conducting a COIN op.

Lets take another scenario...An infantry battalion is located in the border..they see a few guys crossing in on the HHTI and the officer decides to send in a team which will be on a Search and Destroy mission...so here also the factor of intel is there.

Without intel the Infantry and RR battalions dont operate..For SFs i cant say much as i have never interacted with a SF guy but according to my knowledge they are mostly operating either with RR or they carry out under cover ops.The SF company is attached with every RR Sector(like Romeo force,Kilo force,Delta Force).So whenever a special op is carried out these Sf guys are a part of it...Inspite of being with the RR guys they like to operate amongst themselves and have that behaviour where they think they are the best and lead from the front..The RR guys are not very fond of this behaviour as this deprives them of action and kills but still the comradrie is very much there.

During an operating in one of the most dangerous operations in Kashmir a combined team of RR and SF guys whose strength was close to a section came under heavy fire for a dugout..the exact location was not known and in the team there were 2-3 SF guys were there with like some 8-9 RR guys.These 2-3 guys told the RR guys to take position and not follow them and just give them covering fire...and started leading the counter attack...Even though the RR guys didnt agree but they didnt refuse to obey and soon these 3 guys were under heavy fire from a machine gun and resulted in all 3 getting heavily injured..seeing this the RR guys charged and the terrorists were overpowered..unfortunately we lost 1 SF guy..This is how the SF is..and i particularly love this attitude and thatswhy i say they are the best..They dont fear anything and they believe they are the best.People can take this thing negatively but you need to have a really big heart to take the action those 3 guys took and i understood what they must have thought before taking this step..they didnt want the RR guys to risk and thought because of their superior training and weaponry they should lead from the front...Although sometimes they change their teams in operations which i dont like tbh..but thats another issue.

So comming back to my point..almost 90% of COIN op are carried out by the RR and they act on intel..So if you are saying it doesnt necessarily need to have intel then i dont agree with you.With regard to SF op thats another issue alltogether but it also requires intel..that too of a different kind where the Army Intel team is involved with the job of getting them in(undercover ops).

Without intel i dont think there will be any success in any operation.

 

[Sergi]

The thing is the IA would never send their teams for ops unless and until there is an intel coz there is no point spending a night in some forest expecting something to happen.So the thing is most of the time it will only be reaction teams.

I think you are not getting the complete picture of operations in Kashmir.The operation i previously mentioned was in an urban environment operation now suppose we have a situation which you suggest is a different concept where in the Team is carrying out an Ambush.So what is the first thing when it is decided that an Ambush will be laid??...It is the Intel(right?)..After getting Intel a QRT will be sent on the location and a ambush will be set according to the intel like which path are the likely to take,what will be the strength like etc...Now do you know that most of the time the guy who gives the Intel is a surrendered militant or a villager and he is supposed to go with the team in the operation...so now what will you call it coz this is also a reaction team?but it is also conducting a COIN op.

Lets take another scenario...An infantry battalion is located in the border..they see a few guys crossing in on the HHTI and the officer decides to send in a team which will be on a Search and Destroy mission...so here also the factor of intel is there.

Without intel the Infantry and RR battalions dont operate..For SFs i cant say much as i have never interacted with a SF guy but according to my knowledge they are mostly operating either with RR or they carry out under cover ops.The SF company is attached with every RR Sector(like Romeo force,Kilo force,Delta Force).So whenever a special op is carried out these Sf guys are a part of it...Inspite of being with the RR guys they like to operate amongst themselves and have that behaviour where they think they are the best and lead from the front..The RR guys are not very fond of this behaviour as this deprives them of action and kills but still the comradrie is very much there.

During an operating in one of the most dangerous operations in Kashmir a combined team of RR and SF guys whose strength was close to a section came under heavy fire for a dugout..the exact location was not known and in the team there were 2-3 SF guys were there with like some 8-9 RR guys.These 2-3 guys told the RR guys to take position and not follow them and just give them covering fire...and started leading the counter attack...Even though the RR guys didnt agree but they didnt refuse to obey and soon these 3 guys were under heavy fire from a machine gun and resulted in all 3 getting heavily injured..seeing this the RR guys charged and the terrorists were overpowered..unfortunately we lost 1 SF guy..This is how the SF is..and i particularly love this attitude and thatswhy i say they are the best..They dont fear anything and they believe they are the best.People can take this thing negatively but you need to have a really big heart to take the action those 3 guys took and i understood what they must have thought before taking this step..they didnt want the RR guys to risk and thought because of their superior training and weaponry they should lead from the front...Although sometimes they change their teams in operations which i dont like tbh..but thats another issue.

So comming back to my point..almost 90% of COIN op are carried out by the RR and they act on intel..So if you are saying it doesnt necessarily need to have intel then i dont agree with you.With regard to SF op thats another issue alltogether but it also requires intel..that too of a different kind where the Army Intel team is involved with the job of getting them in(undercover ops).

Without intel i dont think there will be any success in any operation.

Now we have a lot of points to disagree. It will be interesting ( by the way can you give more details of that 2/3 SF guies story ???)
1. The thing is the IA would never send their teams for ops unless and until there is an intel coz there is no point spending a night in some forest expecting something to happen:
Completely wrong statement. Every army camp in HOT area have minimum 2/3 perimeter patrols staring at evening. I know exact timing of this things but it won't be good to write it here. And it exceeds beyond the camp perimeter.
2. I said it before I am not disagreeing with Kashmir OPs. We are arguing on COIN concept , right ???
3. Ambush Parties operate in War or HOT zones without intel. They laid ambushes near possible hideouts, water sources or the valley openings.
4. Kashmir is ok now but it was a mess decade ago.
5. You know about RR Ops. SF OPs even though NOT UNDERCOVER never see the day light as they belive in low profile and don't talk too much. Let alone media. Forget the under cover operations. Most of SF guies will deny that SF ever take up any under cover OP.
6. If you have a chance to meet any SF guy and be able to make him talk you will understand what I mean. They talk very little about their work.

Standard Operating procedure for COIN ( you can confirm it with RR guies )
1. You don't get intel all the time. So you can't sit idle in HOT zone.
2. Patrolling scouts ( always SF guies or atmost Ghataks with SF ) sniff for tresses around the infected area. Say Kashmir valley. They look for stresses. Temp camps, burnt wood, food , footprints or even unusual bird movement in jungle.
3. They rely message (coded) to CC and follow the trail.
4. Backup is formed and moved to nearest OP.
5. If COIN can get closed and able to take out all they do it themself. If not ( fortification, heavy weapons or numerical adv) they setup perimeter and call in backup.

This is COIN procedure. In Kashimir everything is mixed up. But still the COIN guies who actually start the job travel very very light.

SF is trained to these things so they are mostly preffered for the JOB. Even most of the boys in camp aren't aware of presence of SF

 

[Abingdonboy]

Yes and I totally agree with it.
RR guies do most of tasks in JK. Yes.

Our argument is on COIN concept/defination. I agree with HIS every word. That's correct procedure. All I am saying is it isn't COIN. COIN is "search and hunt" atleast that's what I know. I am open for new info. Don't mind to correct me

Fair enough, the offical definition of COIN is "A counter-insurgency or counterinsurgency operation involves actions taken by the recognized government of a nation to contain or quell an insurgency taken up against it". This encompasses a whole range of tactics from direct action like "snatch and grab" ops or "search and hunt" ops to regular patrolling and tactics to "win hearts and minds" of local populace such as building schools and the such.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Now we have a lot of points to disagree. It will be interesting ( by the way can you give more details of that 2/3 SF guies story ???)
1. The thing is the IA would never send their teams for ops unless and until there is an intel coz there is no point spending a night in some forest expecting something to happen:
Completely wrong statement. Every army camp in HOT area have minimum 2/3 perimeter patrols staring at evening. I know exact timing of this things but it won't be good to write it here. And it exceeds beyond the camp perimeter.

That is called Area Domination Patrol !!

2. I said it before I am not disagreeing with Kashmir OPs. We are arguing on COIN concept , right ???

Right!

3. Ambush Parties operate in War or HOT zones without intel. They laid ambushes near possible hideouts, water sources or the valley openings.

And when exactly to lay the Ambush?..If no intel is present then what will be the timings like?..I agree that sometimes it may be like guessing without intel but most of the time intel should also be present.

4. Kashmir is ok now but it was a mess decade ago.

Most people dont even know that once upon a time even BMPs were used and we had terrorist training camps in Anantnag and Kulgam.

5. You know about RR Ops. SF OPs even though NOT UNDERCOVER never see the day light as they belive in low profile and don't talk too much. Let alone media. Forget the under cover operations. Most of SF guies will deny that SF ever take up any under cover OP.

I know that and that is why i love Para.the amount of work they have done is unmatchable.I am really sorry for saying this guys(particularly MARCOS fans) that had the Marcos done even 40% of what Para does..you would be reading it everywhere like the interview they gave after 26/11 operation without killing a single terrorist and while the gunfight was going on..Forget Para even the Army guys wont indulge in this type of behaviour.No wonder you come to know about every single thing they do like Anti-piracy op to small ops in the valley..their contribution to Op Rakshak is close to iota.

6. If you have a chance to meet any SF guy and be able to make him talk you will understand what I mean. They talk very little about their work.

I know that..forget about SF guy you cannot even get info out of a IAF pilot (@ Abingdonboy)

Standard Operating procedure for COIN ( you can confirm it with RR guies )
1. You don't get intel all the time. So you can't sit idle in HOT zone.
2. Patrolling scouts ( always SF guies or atmost Ghataks with SF ) sniff for tresses around the infected area. Say Kashmir valley. They look for stresses. Temp camps, burnt wood, food , footprints or even unusual bird movement in jungle.
3. They rely message (coded) to CC and follow the trail.
4. Backup is formed and moved to nearest OP.
5. If COIN can get closed and able to take out all they do it themself. If not ( fortification, heavy weapons or numerical adv) they setup perimeter and call in backup.

Nice...but do you realise that this is a type of COIN operation and doesnt always happen...COIN includes various stuff..this is just 1 kind.

BTW sniffing for traces can also be called seeking Intel?

Also they go to villages interact with them and try to get info during searches which can be called intel gathering and not a search and destroy mission.

This is COIN procedure. In Kashimir everything is mixed up. But still the COIN guies who actually start the job travel very very light.

SF is trained to these things so they are mostly preffered for the JOB. Even most of the boys in camp aren't aware of presence of SF

SF guys travel light not the RR guys.Most of the operation is either done by RR or by teams which include both SF and RR guys.

Secondly SF is preferred for Special Ops and regular ops are done by RR guys.

SF when undercover is not known to anyone..forget about the boys in the camp..Maybe the Commander has a idea about their location and prevents other units from conducting op in those areas.

 

[Sergi]

That is called Area Domination Patrol !!




Right!



And when exactly to lay the Ambush?..If no intel is present then what will be the timings like?..I agree that sometimes it may be like guessing without intel but most of the time intel should also be present.




Most people dont even know that once upon a time even BMPs were used and we had terrorist training camps in Anantnag and Kulgam.




I know that and that is why i love Para.the amount of work they have done is unmatchable.I am really sorry for saying this guys(particularly MARCOS fans) that had the Marcos done even 40% of what Para does..you would be reading it everywhere like the interview they gave after 26/11 operation without killing a single terrorist and while the gunfight was going on..Forget Para even the Army guys wont indulge in this type of behaviour.No wonder you come to know about every single thing they do like Anti-piracy op to small ops in the valley..their contribution to Op Rakshak is close to iota.




I know that..forget about SF guy you cannot even get info out of a IAF pilot(@ Abingdonboy)




Nice...but do you realise that this is a type of COIN operation and doesnt always happen...COIN includes various stuff..this is just 1 kind.

BTW sniffing for traces can also be called seeking Intel?

Also they go to villages interact with them and try to get info during searches which can be called intel gathering and not a search and destroy mission.



SF guys travel light not the RR guys.Most of the operation is either done by RR or by teams which include both SF and RR guys.

Secondly SF is preferred for Special Ops and regular ops are done by RR guys.

SF when undercover is not known to anyone..forget about the boys in the camp..Maybe the Commander has a idea about their location and prevents other units from conducting op in those areas.

1. Exactly. ADP. I couldn't recall the name so write all that
2.
3. I will say only 10 % of Ambush are laid on intel. Rest of 90% are "experienced wild guesses" and strategic important points like area entrance points.
4. that's why I write it was a mess .
5. Don't underestimate Marcos. 26/11 interview was PR to calm down people. These guies also operate in Kashmir. There is a strange combination of PARAs+ SFs and Marcos in J&K. Media some how manage to pull out info after 26/11. May be retired guies. And all infor is old. MARCOS had done some excellent work which will never come out. You need to be lucky to know that
6. I didn't know that. So we have a pilot here nice to here that
7. Yes sniffing is intel but you have to do it yourself. Nobody helps. That was the point.
COIN teams do interact with villagers but not the one on hunt. Interaction is done by smartly dressed guies. And like a PR mission.
COIN never appear before anyone if they are on tress or hunt. Keep low profile as much as they can. Meeting civilians always give away there positions and intentions. And may cause harm.
8. We don't have UNDERCOVER OPs regularly. SF is used intensively for COIN.

My friend told me a story about the incident happen in 2006/7.it was even published in TOI. COIN team of 10 SF members spotted a terrorist group of 5/6. Instead of gunning them down they trialled them to their hideout in deep jungle and unknowingly enter the terrorist training camp. They were Armed with just AKs so they relay message for backup and hide for 7/8 hours still backup came. When backup came and engage the terrorist. terrorists fight back unaware of presence of COIN team on their flank. COIN enter the battle and took out front line from flank Total 20/25 terrorist were killed and around same number run away. No causality to COIN team.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

My friend told me a story about the incident happen in 2006/7.it was even published in TOI. COIN team of 10 SF members spotted a terrorist group of 5/6. Instead of gunning them down they trialled them to their hideout in deep jungle and unknowingly enter the terrorist training camp. They were Armed with just AKs so they relay message for backup and hide for 7/8 hours still backup came. When backup came and engage the terrorist terrorists fight back unaware of presence of COIN team on their flak. COIN enter the battle and took out front line from flank Total 20/25 terrorist were killed and around same number run away. No causality to COIN team.

More oe Less i agree with most points.

I never said i am understimating the capabilities of Marcos..i am saying i dont like that behaviour.

MARCOS had done some excellent work which will never come out. You need to be lucky to know that

Do you know any such incident..Moreover the no of Marcos in the valley is very less..Kindly educate me if you have an idea about it.




The Pilot issue is something else..We dont have a IAF pilot..We do have a Cessna pilot...who is trolling in this thread


And You Mr..you need to get everything out of that SF guy you know..I will buy you a drink if you come to Delhi

 

[Sergi]

More oe Less i agree with most points.

I never said i am understimating the capabilities of Marcos..i am saying i dont like that behaviour.




Do you know any such incident..Moreover the no of Marcos in the valley is very less..Kindly educate me if you have an idea about it.




The Pilot issue is something else..We dont have a IAF pilot..We do have a Cessna pilot...who is trolling in this thread


And You Mr..you need to get everything out of that SF guy you know..I will buy you a drink if you come to Delhi

If I know correctly MARCOS where made to appear that press conference. It wasn't their fault. Those guies where into their base the moment they debrief NSG. They were recalled back for that press release.

I don't know any MARCOS personally. But I know one operation carried out in lake boat ( don't know the name of lake) in J&K. It was a combined operation. ( RR+ SF + MARCOS ) boat house MARCOS sneak in boat through water and snatch a militant area commander under the covering fire of SF and Paras who tear apart everything after MARCOS get back into the water with package. Didn't you know this ??? You are from J&K right ???

hahaahaha you are being funny here you want me to interrogate SF guy bad idea I love my nose
We are childhood friends we know everything about each other except this. He don't share confidential things which even I don't want him to. He give me generalise info , weapon info tactics info. Even teach me some good tricks.

Tell some stories of missions which are already published in media. Nothing beyond that. Just I do get info better than media. eg in above incident the sentry on the boat house was taken down by SF sniper at the same movement MARCOS guies get into the boat and shoot guards

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

If I know correctly MARCOS where made to appear that press conference. It wasn't their fault. Those guies where into their base the moment they debrief NSG. They were recalled back for that press release.

I don't know any MARCOS personally. But I know one operation carried out in lake boat ( don't know the name of lake) in J&K. It was a combined operation. ( RR+ SF + MARCOS ) boat house MARCOS sneak in boat through water and snatch a militant area commander under the covering fire of SF and Paras who tear apart everything after MARCOS get back into the water with package. Didn't you know this ??? You are from J&K right ???

hahaahaha you are being funny here you want me to interrogate SF guy bad idea I love my nose
We are childhood friends we know everything about each other except this. He don't share confidential things which even I don't want him to. He give me generalise info , weapon info tactics info. Even teach me some good tricks.

Tell some stories of missions which are already published in media. Nothing beyond that. Just I do get info better than media. eg in above incident the sentry on the boat house was taken down by SF sniper at the same movement MARCOS guies get into the boat and shoot guards

Nope i didnt know of this operation.

I am not being funny bro..just try to get some info from him.I am sure you have a better chance than me..I was trying to get info out of an IAF fighter pilot of the rank of a Group Captain..No luck

 

[Sergi]

Nope i didnt know of this operation.

I am not being funny bro..just try to get some info from him.I am sure you have a better chance than me..I was trying to get info out of an IAF fighter pilot

Evenif you get something just be careful in sharing it here

MARCOS operate around the lakes in J&K with combined teams of RR & SFs. JK service RR guy would be able to tell you about this as they were part of it too.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Evenif you get something just be careful in sharing it here

MARCOS operate around the lakes in J&K with combined teams of RR & SFs. JK service RR guy would be able to tell you about this as they were part of it too.

The hot zones in Kashmir are somewhere else.