Indian Rafale talks hit offset snag

[GURU DUTT]

It is IAF's loss. Rafale is a good aircraft and the best buy for India short of PAK-FA. 126 Rafales in Indian colours would have given China sleepless nights. But Indian babus had to blow up this entire deal and turn this whole thing into a fiasco and an embarrassment for India.

Cancel flop projects like LCA which will never be inducted. Purchase Rafale and MODERN jets to strengthen up national security.

1if dassault dosent wants to honor its comitments we cant force it to sell its products to us and vice versa

2 FGFA /PAKFA is a better fighter jet than rafale any given day in any given mission so its better to invest in them than rafale

3.LCA is not a flop fighter its the IAF and its love for "foriegn maal" which is the real culprit

4. we dont have the resources to waste and go for 126 rafale when equal number of FGFA are on order and might come in the same time frame as rafales

but of late i see many pakistanies realli worried about future of IAF regarding rafale or is it they want us to abandon the project by showing /saying why india should by rafale when actualli they want reverse as an old tactik ?


point is rafale will come and this article is just a mischiveous speculation bieng spread by diffrent compatitors of rafale/dassault so if your a patriot indians as your DP suggests (i personalli think your a pakistani or a chinese) just sit and enjoy the show no need to distribeute certificates of exelence to any fighter

Hi,

At first I thought it read as " aunty india " and I said 'damnnn'---aunty india---what is that---what's up with india being an Aunty----but then I realized you meant anti india----.

You know after all you guys fcuk up---bragging---strutting around---56 in chest---when it comes down to this---please kindy allow the opposition to at least " smirk " a little bit at the new fcuk up---hehn----that can't be too bitter---now is it. So---be a good boy---and tell the guys---" take it with a smile people ".

salaam mastaan saheb

sirji im a kamakl short dark yaindoo baniya and unable to understand the point you are trying to make please "asaan bhasha me samjhao na jo mere jaise neem khanadaa insaan ko samajh aa sake "

no its not, IAF is already depleted and this will mean loss of at least 5 years in best case scenario, likely 10 years...mean while china is already much superior in numbers and probably in technology too.

i think India should buy 18 rafale, 18 typhoons and 18 mig 35s.....this wil cost the same as buying 36 rafale.

the left over money can go into AMCA, forget about LCA it was learning experience.
AMCA is the future, you will find something else by the time AMCA is about to be ready and it will be even better learning experience than LCA.

everybody is happy and and everybody wins


AMCA even is not at concept of design phase.
If started today, don't expect serial production by 2030.

no sir your wrong

times have changed and so have the roles of fighter jets a decdade back a jet was used with onli one mission in mind like

mig 21 = point defnce
mig 27= ground attack
jaguar=ground attack/CAS/deep strike
M2K=SEAD/DEAD/Deep strike and precission bombing
mig 29= air interception and air superiorty
MKI= air interception and air superiorty & recon

but now even a LCA can perform all these tasks with just one pod and full compliment of its arsenell same is with Mig 29 , M2k , MKI

while rafle is pinacklle of this philosophy (omni role) so in short a single rafle can do job of 3 diffrent jets with good range and deu to its SPECTRA can survive on its own so doesnt needs escorts (interceptors like Mig29&MKI) so a single squad of rafale is as capable as a squad of jaguar and MKI each ...... in short saanp bhi mar jaeyga aur laathi bhi nahi toottegi

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

AMCA even is not at concept of design phase.
If started today, don't expect serial production by 2030.

If you read my post again it stated 2020 to start the research phase not even design phase...Any thing before that India would not have adequate knowledge due to the loss of 10 years in acquiring the Rafale.

Russia is still not giving all the information required to start designing a 5th Gen fighter aircraft though India is a Partner in the T-50 PakFA.

This was also one of the reasons why India was interested in getting the Rafale. But what they wanted failed due to the delays. Moreover France did not want to give the most sensitive information on transfer of technology due to the Patent and Copy Right issues.

To over come these one has to partner in the entire project from day one but the French were never interested in this kind of a partnership. This was the very reason they opted out of the Euro Fighter programe too.

Nope! Straight no on that, mate! For both reasons of state and MDPU/Sensor fusion/AESA tech.
The very reason why you heard little about it is because its capacities are strictly secret.
The threat libraries for instance won't come with the Rafale. You'll have to build your own.

Good evening all, read you tomorrow, Tay.

Thanks for the information....
These systems are some how available not as a complete package but in parts, like the AESA has been offered to other countries. Still other stuff has not been offered.

 

[Indian Patriot]

A general question to Indian posters here. A lot of Indians put the blame on armed forces ( the men who risk their life and limb for the country) to save the a$$ of worthless PSUs like DRDO.

Those whining about "foreign maal" answer this if any DRDO made weapon can compare with foreign maal. MKI is foreign maal, T-90 is foreign maal, Bofors is foreign maal, PHALCON AWACS is foreign maal, TAVOR rifles is foreign maal, SMERCH is foreign maal.

Where is Indian and DRDO maal?

The most irritating thing on this forum are those select Indian retards who don't have any idea on defence and defence topics but feel they are all knowing.

Rafale is many times better than LCA. And if you are so dumb as to believe otherwise then it would be a waste of time trying to insert some sense through your thick skulls.

 

[cerberus]

Any thing before that India would not have adequate knowledge due to the loss of 10 years in acquiring the Rafale.

India already Manufacturing MkI at 15 Per year Rate At Nasik Anything Other than That is moot Point

Russia is still not giving all the information required to start designing a 5th Gen fighter aircraft though India is a Partner in the T-50 PakFA.

Moot Point the Initial Offer Was For Joint Production Which Change After Words Due to MOD wants PAK FA off self Same Process As Su-30 MKI's

To over come these one has to partner in the entire project from day one but the French were never interested in this kind of a partnership. This was the very reason they opted out of the Euro Fighter programe too.

Another Moot Point that French are Not Interested in Technical Partner ship
We are Already Manufacturing 6 French-designed Scorpene submarines which are being manufactured Mazgaon docks in Mumbai Under TOT.

French are also interested Joint-venture With Us SR-SAM project with MBDA
LIVEFIST: Indo-French SR-SAM Project Is Back ON

 

[Super Commando Dhruva]

We are not IRAN who can produce 5th Gen Fighter in a day. You need Maal ? if you get bitten by a Dog and dying and don't have foreign Maal, you can go for DRDO maal, it can save you from Hydrophobia. We are still remains a poor county. Missiles are not our priorities, Be optimistic! things will happen. ( List is Endless for DRDO )

 

[Taygibay]

@uparyupari I am for a rare time not quoting your message nor truly answering
… but I'll explain why.

In this whole saga, many Indians have been irrational with patriotism. That showed in the tens of thousand
slander posts ( not evidenced-based ) against Dassault including by otherwise respectable contributors.
That's why I stopped participating in any thread on Internet about the MMRCA deal.

So that, my comment was solely on explaining offsets as commercial contracts only and chose a car example.
I offered nothing about the process of this deal either.

Most important, you'e ending with the use of You as pronoun for your last sentence.
I am not an employee of Dassault at present and never was in the past
( nor do I confuse any individual Indian with Hal or Joe the Plumber with Lockheed-Martin. )

As long as people keep mixing things up ( people and States/company or corps with one another Rafael vs Rafale ),
I judge the reality content to be below my requirements and let them do ego trips in front of their virtual mirror.

This said, I do answer Indians ( as I do anyone else really ) when I know them to be clear-headed persons*
about things I know well enough to share. In fact, I'll answer any question when I have proven facts to offer
about anything precisely because doing has no "color" i.e. facts will defend themselves by virtue of being facts.
And if someone can favor their side when it's not mine by proper use of logic & facts, I have no bug with that.
Who knows, maybe they're just right and it a good opportunity for me to learn or understand something new?

About which …

These systems are some how available not as a complete package but in parts, like the AESA has been offered to other countries. Still other stuff has not been offered.

Yes, exactly! You can get a Spectra suite … by buying a Rafale. You can likely buy an RBE_2 AESA by sending
a check to Thales and so on. The DDM-NG too and probably the laser finders but not the AESA-type intake arrays
nor the antennas on the canards' shoulder fronts.
Then, you'd need the MDPU or anything of the sort homemade or bought and a plane built the right way
with every part that interacts with the outside collating its informations upstream of it so they can be used
for integration and not compete with each other in any way. In that sense, sensor fusion revolutionizes the
MMI and both it and a powerful modular ( both to avoid long maintenance and facilitate upgrades ) central
computer are necessary.

Because it was thought as a unified system and made thus ( on the exact same timeline as the plane's body ),
it gets synergy effect that reaps rewards in both detection and protection that applying the elements by piece
to an existing fighter ( save one with equivalent sensor fusion network centric unified modular design ) wouldn't.

An indication of this is the fact that some of the Spectra parts have no name and are never mentioned which I
gathered between your lines you discovered? They need no nifty acronym ( AWREEM-245D/FK-?&% ) for the
very simple reason that they're not for sale, my good man!

Good day all, Tay
* Like New World and Ace of the Air.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Taygibay

Please tell us in PLAIN words whether Rafale deal is happening or not

 

[Armstrong]

@uparyupari I am for a rare time not quoting your message nor truly answering
… but I'll explain why.

In this whole saga, many Indians have been irrational with patriotism. That showed in the tens of thousand
slander posts ( not evidenced-based ) against Dassault including by otherwise respectable contributors.
That's why I stopped participating in any thread on Internet about the MMRCA deal.

So that, my comment was solely on explaining offsets as commercial contracts only and chose a car example.
I offered nothing about the process of this deal either.

Most important, you'e ending with the use of You as pronoun for your last sentence.
I am not an employee of Dassault at present and never was in the past
( nor do I confuse any individual Indian with Hal or Joe the Plumber with Lockheed-Martin. )

As long as people keep mixing things up ( people and States/company or corps with one another Rafael vs Rafale ),
I judge the reality content to be below my requirements and let them do ego trips in front of their virtual mirror.

This said, I do answer Indians ( as I do anyone else really ) when I know them to be clear-headed persons*
about things I know well enough to share. In fact, I'll answer any question when I have proven facts to offer
about anything precisely because doing has no "color" i.e. facts will defend themselves by virtue of being facts.
And if someone can favor their side when it's not mine by proper use of logic & facts, I have no bug with that.
Who knows, maybe they're just right and it a good opportunity for me to learn or understand something new?

About which …

Yes, exactly! You can get a Spectra suite … by buying a Rafale. You can likely buy an RBE_2 AESA by sending
a check to Thales and so on. The DDM-NG too and probably the laser finders but not the AESA-type intake arrays
nor the antennas on the canards' shoulder fronts.
Then, you'd need the MDPU or anything of the sort homemade or bought and a plane built the right way
with every part that interacts with the outside collating its informations upstream of it so they can be used
for integration and not compete with each other in any way. In that sense, sensor fusion revolutionizes the
MMI and both it and a powerful modular ( both to avoid long maintenance and facilitate upgrades ) central
computer are necessary.

Because it was thought as a unified system and made thus ( on the exact same timeline as the plane's body ),
it gets synergy effect that reaps rewards in both detection and protection that applying the elements by piece
to an existing fighter ( save one with equivalent sensor fusion network centric unified modular design ) wouldn't.

An indication of this is the fact that some of the Spectra parts have no name and are never mentioned which I
gathered between your lines you discovered? They need no nifty acronym ( AWREEM-245D/FK-?&% ) for the
very simple reason that they're not for sale, my good man!

Good day all, Tay
* Like New World and Ace of the Air.

What the Rafale deal is still ON ?

@Gabriel92 - How can this be ? Helping Indians against me....your own brother ?

The last time I complained to my sister-in-law - Mrs.Gabriel, you promised that you'd have this deal cancelled !

Time to talk to talk to Gabriel Jrs. so that they may argue on behalf of their Uncle Armstrong !

I wonder if I could talk to my other sister-in-law - Mrs.Taygibay and my nephews and nieces -Taygiybay Jrs. as well to make sure that this deal and the one for the Scorpeone subs gets cancelled !

 

[Gabriel92]

What the Rafale deal is still ON ?

@Gabriel92 - How can this be ? Helping Indians against me....your own brother ?

The last time I complained to my sister-in-law - Mrs.Gabriel, you promised that you'd have this deal cancelled !

Time to talk to talk to Gabriel Jrs. so that they may argue on behalf of their Uncle Armstrong !

I wonder if I could talk to my other sister-in-law - Mrs.Taygibay and my nephews and nieces -Taygiybay Jrs. as well to make sure that this deal and the one for the Scorpeone subs gets cancelled !

If you could buy some Rafale,we could cancel the deal with Indians,business is business as we say ?
(By the way,Gabriel Jrs are future businessmen,only business,the rest later. )
World is so cruel.

 

[Taygibay]

@Taygibay

Please tell us in PLAIN words whether Rafale deal is happening or not

I sort of just said that I was not in a position to do that reliably, Stephen?
But I can say this : most French avid fans have given up on India at least to the extent of going to
the if it happens, it will have happened attitude. Some who do not follow strategic affairs would even
prefer it did not.
These don't matter, just show the saga to have gone on for far too long whomever is to blame.

But a recent leak quoted a Dassault executive ( not one involved in the sale itself though ) along :
-Oh! And let's just forget the Indian deal! ( Not certain if he meant the new 36 or old 126 ).

So if you understand that I am not picking sides in saying the following :
When the seller is that disconcerted about a big deal worth billions, something has gone terribly wrong.

The most recent authorized quote from Dassault was that things are still progressing.
I hope that helps a little, man.

I wonder if I could talk to my other sister-in-law - Mrs.Taygibay and my nephews and nieces -Taygiybay Jrs. as well to make sure that this deal and the one for the Scorpeone subs gets cancelled !

There is no Mrs Taygibay ATM. And GFs-in-law are another matter entirely.
But your nephew says he's got infos that the Scorpene will proceed while the Rafale is hanging …

15 000 meters above any troubled spot thanks to its smooth M-88-4E and luscious curves …

oops, that was my advert/fanboy moment, sorry!

Now just shut up, you joker!

Good day all, Tay.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Yes, exactly! You can get a Spectra suite … by buying a Rafale. You can likely buy an RBE_2 AESA by sending
a check to Thales and so on. The DDM-NG too and probably the laser finders but not the AESA-type intake arrays
nor the antennas on the canards' shoulder fronts.
Then, you'd need the MDPU or anything of the sort homemade or bought and a plane built the right way
with every part that interacts with the outside collating its informations upstream of it so they can be used
for integration and not compete with each other in any way. In that sense, sensor fusion revolutionizes the
MMI and both it and a powerful modular ( both to avoid long maintenance and facilitate upgrades ) central
computer are necessary.

Because it was thought as a unified system and made thus ( on the exact same timeline as the plane's body ),
it gets synergy effect that reaps rewards in both detection and protection that applying the elements by piece
to an existing fighter ( save one with equivalent sensor fusion network centric unified modular design ) wouldn't.

An indication of this is the fact that some of the Spectra parts have no name and are never mentioned which I
gathered between your lines you discovered? They need no nifty acronym ( AWREEM-245D/FK-?&% ) for the
very simple reason that they're not for sale, my good man!

Good day all, Tay

Thanks for a detailed reply...
When PAF was shown the Rafale it was without the Spectra but had the same systems as that of M2k's of UAE's and hence PAF was not interested. Later on they did enter into designing this together for the JF-17 there the issue was Pakistan was under sanctions hence no progress. There are talks between PAF and Thales going on again to restart the stalled negotiations but now things are different PAF wants the actual stuff which was initially contracted. Things are improving in this regards Deals of Egypt, Qatar and UAE have also helped PAF. The suite that PAF has currently is Cherry picked for the JF-17 but it would be nice to see some more western tech for the nations that are non-sanction prone. The discovered part is still not available because the MMRCA is still on, however time is running out. Once this time is over PN is going to get a few of the Rafales because the cost of converting the existing Mirage Rebuilt Facility to Rafale rebuilt facility is not much. There is also a possibility that PAC would produce these for the Middle Eastern Countries that are going to purchase them because they are going to replace the M2k's.

The only thing that is not for sale is the mapping sensors...The rest is all available. One more advantage is that the Rafale does not have any input of Israel.

One has to see if these are bought from the market by cherry picking would they be as lethal as the Rafale or even better...

@Taygibay

Please tell us in PLAIN words whether Rafale deal is happening or not

What the Rafale deal is still ON ?

@Gabriel92 - How can this be ? Helping Indians against me....your own brother ?

The last time I complained to my sister-in-law - Mrs.Gabriel, you promised that you'd have this deal cancelled !

Time to talk to talk to Gabriel Jrs. so that they may argue on behalf of their Uncle Armstrong !

I wonder if I could talk to my other sister-in-law - Mrs.Taygibay and my nephews and nieces -Taygiybay Jrs. as well to make sure that this deal and the one for the Scorpeone subs gets cancelled !

If you could buy some Rafale,we could cancel the deal with Indians,business is business as we say ?
(By the way,Gabriel Jrs are future businessmen,only business,the rest later. )
World is so cruel.

I sort of just said that I was not in a position to do that reliably, Stephen?
But I can say this : most French avid fans have given up on India at least to the extent of going to
the if it happens, it will have happened attitude. Some who do not follow strategic affairs would even
prefer it did not.
These don't matter, just show the saga to have gone on for far too long whomever is to blame.

But a recent leak quoted a Dassault executive ( not one involved in the sale itself though ) along :
-Oh! And let's just forget the Indian deal! ( Not certain if he meant the new 36 or old 126 ).

So if you understand that I am not picking sides in saying the following :
When the seller is that disconcerted about a big deal worth billions, something has gone terribly wrong.

The most recent authorized quote from Dassault was that things are still progressing.
I hope that helps a little, man.


There is no Mrs Taygibay ATM. And GFs-in-law are another matter entirely.
But your nephew says he's got infos that the Scorpene will proceed while the Rafale is hanging …

15 000 meters above any troubled spot thanks to its smooth M-88-4E and luscious curves …

oops, that was my advert/fanboy moment, sorry!

Now just shut up, you joker!

Good day all, Tay.

The deals that are on offer currently are much more than the Indian offer. India knows it. They are only trying to find a way to save GOI from the public out cry. The Indian public is expecting Modi to be a wizard so needs time to reduce the anger.

The Arab leagues decision to have a joint military force is forcing India to rethink on her ambitiousness plan of controlling the Indian Ocean and hence all the financial assets are being routed towards the navy. F-35 offer and naval version of LCA is going to kill any Rafale for the Navy hence IAF MMRCA orders are slashed to 36 and then to zero. Though the chances of getting about 50-70 M2k's do exist.

 

[[Bregs]]

A general question to Indian posters here. A lot of Indians put the blame on armed forces ( the men who risk their life and limb for the country) to save the a$$ of worthless PSUs like DRDO.

Those whining about "foreign maal" answer this if any DRDO made weapon can compare with foreign maal. MKI is foreign maal, T-90 is foreign maal, Bofors is foreign maal, PHALCON AWACS is foreign maal, TAVOR rifles is foreign maal, SMERCH is foreign maal.

Where is Indian and DRDO maal?

The most irritating thing on this forum are those select Indian retards who don't have any idea on defence and defence topics but feel they are all knowing.

Rafale is many times better than LCA. And if you are so dumb as to believe otherwise then it would be a waste of time trying to insert some sense through your thick skulls.

lol good review

 

[MastanKhan]

salaam mastaan saheb

sirji im a kamakl short dark yaindoo baniya and unable to understand the point you are trying to make please "asaan bhasha me samjhao na jo mere jaise neem khanadaa insaan ko samajh aa sake "

Guru,

If you had stated that you have comprehension problems, your glasses are out of focus as your eye sight has gone bad, or if you are illiterate, or if the gray matter has shrunk due to unknown disease and you are not able to think straight--------I could understand your dilemma-----but being short and dark banyia does not qualify you to not to understand what I wrote---.

 

[21 Dec 2012]

Dassault executive ( not one involved in the sale itself though ) along :
-Oh! And let's just forget the Indian deal!

This shows it. Time to buy Russian, eh

 

[Donatello]

It is IAF's loss. Rafale is a good aircraft and the best buy for India short of PAK-FA. 126 Rafales in Indian colours would have given China sleepless nights. But Indian babus had to blow up this entire deal and turn this whole thing into a fiasco and an embarrassment for India.

Cancel flop projects like LCA which will never be inducted. Purchase Rafale and MODERN jets to strengthen up national security.

Bhai this is the 'Make in India' century...don't you know. You import parts and assemble in India.