Indian Rafale Jets Would Have Been Useless Against Chinese Airforce – Russia Experts

[Tumba]

how though? the biggest advantage of AESA radar over PESA radar is that it can 1. frequency change rapidly and 2. transmit multiple frequencies simultaneously.

Because of that, it is much harder to jam (you can't focus all jamming on one frequency, and broadband jamming has less energy per given frequency) and much harder to detect (radar detection requires a series of pulses to identify, but AESA radar doesn't repeat pulses, every pulse changes frequency).

true Aesa provides multiple beams and harder to jamm than Pesa but here m not talking about Aesa features...
Once a fighter switches on its own radar the passive sensors can detect the signature and find out the location of target and in an integrated system same info can be relayed to 100 different radars thus making it a fair game to focus Irst or x band waves to same direction...

Thr is active and passive detected ... Rafale mostly uses its passive signatures unlike big russian planes with massive Pesa which rely on long detection ranges ... both have its usages...

 

[Avatar]

They really should invest in Su-57, which might come up a better plane by now, putting feets on the ground is never their thing, I guess.

We probably have the option to procure F-35 but it will be more beneficial to support the development or MCA, which will evolve into our own 6th gen drone program. Even if your own weapons are not the best, even if it costs more, it is better to be self reliant because of changing geo-politics and conflict of interests. However, with the private sector being roped in to the defense manufacturing industry, things are likely to improve in terms of efficiency and quality.

 

[zhxy]

We probably have the option to procure F-35 but it will be more beneficial to support the development or MCA, which will evolve into our own 6th gen drone program. Even if your own weapons are not the best, even if it costs more, it is better to be self reliant because of changing geo-politics and conflict of interests. However, with the private sector being roped in to the defense manufacturing industry, things are likely to improve in terms of efficiency and quality.

The SU-57 is inferior to the F-35 but it is certainly better than all 4th generation fighters.

 

[Avatar]

The SU-57 is inferior to the F-35 but it is certainly better than all 4th generation fighters.

There must be valid reasons why IAF pulled out of it which you and me are unaware of due to lack of information in the public domain.

 

[IblinI]

Why do you think they got back.. IA also raided pla post and butchered and captured equal number of pla soldiers... first ambush by pla then with in hour IA raided pla positions.. brutally revenged Indian killing by killing chinese co captured equal ranks and crushed 40 odd skulls of chini soldiers...

Let me grab my popcorn.

 

[Figaro]

When I say sub sonic speed I dont say its some super manoeuvrable plateform canards do provide some help but to complete in dogfight not possible with even early generation Mig-29...

Here everyone pretty much knows how Pesa and Aesa works but once you use your radar passive signatures can be caught on and locked by ground based or air based assets...

one on one without no support sure a MKi has disadvantage but once J-20 enters a integrated battlefield

with Sams like
Spyder
Nasam
Akash
S-300/400
Barak
With network of multiple radars with MKi working with awacs and rafales pretty sure Mki has same chances as other...

Pretty sure MKI wont come to bomb chengdu



lol since when ahah
Chinese even hid a rocket crashing over a village killed 100s..
Chinese communist party is a closed state whatever they want will come to public..
otherwise chinese public must have heard about 40 skulls being crushed of their countrymen in ladakh

I will take this as a concession of defeat from you then. Now you have fully changed the subject of the argument from Chinese engines to rocket nonsense. Its funny how you are so adept at moving goalposts (as are many Indian posters on this forum). Everytime you lost an argument you just shifted to talking about a different subject. I will outline this goalpost movement : J-20 being a strike fighter -> J-20 detection by radar -> detection by IRST -> Chinese engine reliability -> Chinese engine program cost -> alleged Chinese government rocket coverups?

how though? the biggest advantage of AESA radar over PESA radar is that it can 1. frequency change rapidly and 2. transmit multiple frequencies simultaneously.

Because of that, it is much harder to jam (you can't focus all jamming on one frequency, and broadband jamming has less energy per given frequency) and much harder to detect (radar detection requires a series of pulses to identify, but AESA radar doesn't repeat pulses, every pulse changes frequency).

@Figaro too many Indians think that one or two features would be a knockout win for them. But it's never that simple. it's always a combination. For example they think that if they can counter J-20's stealth the J-20 will be like a propeller plane. But the J-20 also has decent subsonic maneuverability, extremely long range missiles (PL-15), and extremely good AESA radar. Even unarmed it's radar and stealth make it a major threat, so it has uses on the battlefield even after it fires its weapons. And that's just J-20. There's still J-10C, J-16 and J-11B, KJ series AWACs, etc.

The J-20 pilots said themselves that the J-20s subsonic maneuverability is equivalent to that of the J-10s, which is pretty impressive. Once the 3D thrust vectoring WS-15 comes online, the J-20 will achieve true supermaneuverability.

 

[Tumba]

There must be valid reasons why IAF pulled out of it which you and me are unaware of due to lack of information in the public domain.

Russia invited India to join FGFA project asked for initial 500 million investment... even after couple of years no work sharing in project and only invited IAF officers for photo ops... India time and again asked for sharing of work and knowhow after the prototype the IAF was not impressed anyway so India pulled back...

I will take this as a concession of defeat from you then. Now you have fully changed the subject of the argument from Chinese engines to rocket nonsense. Its funny how you are so adept at moving goalposts (as are many Indian posters on this forum). Everytime you lost an argument you just shifted to talking about a different subject. I will outline this goalpost movement : J-20 being a strike fighter -> J-20 detection by radar -> detection by IRST -> Chinese engine reliability -> Chinese engine program cost -> alleged Chinese government rocket coverups?

The J-20 pilots said themselves that the J-20s subsonic maneuverability is equivalent to that of the J-10s, which is pretty impressive. Once the 3D thrust vectoring WS-15 comes online, the J-20 will achieve true supermaneuverability.

Lol concession of defeat thats how u chinese think u win smthin what I have posted are facts and I stand by it... J-20 is no 5th generation fighter in true sense can never be compared with F-35 or F-22 only usages is low level flight in pacific and trying to get lucky by striking some us naval ships...
not a plane that changes some strategies by IAF over Hamalayan ranges

 

[danger007]

J10 is enough for destroying rafale as it has great maneuverability and is efficient jet in hands of properly trained army,In past india lost su30 near chinese border and there were reports that chinese electric warfare and jamming capabilities was major reason behind such jet crash

Yeah properly trained army + efficient fight jet ... really great combination... especially the army part...

 

[Figaro]

Lol concession of defeat thats how u chinese think u win smthin what I have posted are facts and I stand by it... J-20 is no 5th generation fighter in true sense can never be compared with F-35 or F-22 only usages is low level flight in pacific and trying to get lucky by striking some us naval ships...
not a plane that changes some strategies by IAF over Hamalayan ranges

You are not even addressing the points I made earlier regarding the technicals of the J-20 ... neither have you addressed those of @FairAndUnbiased. Instead you are resorting to provocative flame baits and ad hominem attacks. Since you obviously are too proud to admit defeat (just like most Indians after the June 15 incident), I will take this as a substitute for an admission of defeat lol

 

[danger007]

India should ideally surrender and save money.

Pakistan and China can better adminster the people.


With Hindu Vedic planes.

Yeah better administrators with huge power cuts, no seeking bailout package from everyone ..

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

true Aesa provides multiple beams and harder to jamm than Pesa but here m not talking about Aesa features...
Once a fighter switches on its own radar the passive sensors can detect the signature and find out the location of target and in an integrated system same info can be relayed to 100 different radars thus making it a fair game to focus Irst or x band waves to same direction...

Thr is active and passive detected ... Rafale mostly uses its passive signatures unlike big russian planes with massive Pesa which rely on long detection ranges ... both have its usages...

not necessarily. Radar transmitters know their own frequency, so they can narrow their scan to just the frequency that they emit. Remember, for a raw radar signal, all you know is direction, energy and time. That's it. Even frequency is backcalculated with FFT.

However, a passive listening system does not know the enemy frequency. There is always RF noise - cell phone towers, solar flares, thunderstorms, weather radar, electronic glitches caused by cosmic rays, etc. So how do you distinguish a single pulse of some frequency from the noise? You can't. You need a series of pulses. Typically, radar does send out a series of same frequency pulses... but not AESA radar. AESA radar can switch pulse frequency every single scan, so to a passive reciever, all it sees is noise.

OK, let's say IAF buys and deploys AESA equipped Rafale. Before it gets started, Rafale uses NATO datalink while Su-30 MKI uses Russian datalink. uh-oh. But let's say that gets solved. Great, now both PLAAF and IAF are on the same page radar wise... but J-20 still has lower RCS, so it still gets first look first shoot.

 

[Figaro]

not necessarily. Radar transmitters know their own frequency, so they can narrow their scan to just the frequency that they emit. Remember, for a raw radar signal, all you know is direction, energy and time. That's it. Even frequency is backcalculated with FFT.

However, a passive listening system does not know the enemy frequency. There is always RF noise - cell phone towers, solar flares, thunderstorms, weather radar, electronic glitches caused by cosmic rays, etc. So how do you distinguish a single pulse of some frequency from the noise? You can't. You need a series of pulses. Typically, radar does send out a series of same frequency pulses... but not AESA radar. AESA radar can switch pulse frequency every single scan, so to a passive reciever, all it sees is noise.

OK, let's say IAF buys and deploys AESA equipped Rafale. Before it gets started, Rafale uses NATO datalink while Su-30 MKI uses Russian datalink. uh-oh. But let's say that gets solved. Great, now both PLAAF and IAF are on the same page radar wise... but J-20 still has lower RCS, so it still gets first look first shoot.

The J-20s radar is definitely a lot more powerful than that of the Rafael so it is not just a matter of the RCS difference

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Yeah better administrators with huge power cuts, no seeking bailout package from everyone ..

Bro, I am Indian.

 

[Tumba]

not necessarily. Radar transmitters know their own frequency, so they can narrow their scan to just the frequency that they emit. Remember, for a raw radar signal, all you know is direction, energy and time. That's it. Even frequency is backcalculated with FFT.

However, a passive listening system does not know the enemy frequency. There is always RF noise - cell phone towers, solar flares, thunderstorms, weather radar, electronic glitches caused by cosmic rays, etc. So how do you distinguish a single pulse of some frequency from the noise? You can't. You need a series of pulses. Typically, radar does send out a series of same frequency pulses... but not AESA radar. AESA radar can switch pulse frequency every single scan, so to a passive reciever, all it sees is noise.

OK, let's say IAF buys and deploys AESA equipped Rafale. Before it gets started, Rafale uses NATO datalink while Su-30 MKI uses Russian datalink. uh-oh. But let's say that gets solved. Great, now both PLAAF and IAF are on the same page radar wise... but J-20 still has lower RCS, so it still gets first look first shoot.

Well radar homing is a tech that has vast more technological generation over aesa specially the chinese aesa tech... I am pretty sure once J-20 switches on the radar its secret is out ,,,

Again why do people think India cant integrate western and russian systems India has lot more in her sleeves that PDF posters can give her credit for.

J-20 does not have all aspect stealth this is pretty much the observation from non chinese experts so cant say overall J-20 has an edge over Rafale coz Rafale using passive stealth using spectre which pretty much negates any advantage J-20 might theoretically grab on it,
One on one my bet is on Rafale using passive stealth chickening out any chinese fighter somcalled chini stealth or not

 

[IblinI]

The J-20s radar is definitely a lot more powerful than that of the Rafael so it is not just a matter of the RCS difference

I remember someone said/read somewhere, the difference between the 4th and 5th generation started from the bolt.
Totally different design philosophy.