Indian Rafale Jets Would Have Been Useless Against Chinese Airforce – Russia Experts

[Figaro]

I wont be so sure about so called reliability haha, a jet engine is not a rocket engine 800 hours to overhaul no one will buy that,

Kaveri is working fine for the targets it was aimed for when at beginning... but with time the requirements are changed so thrust will be increased with Snechma’s who knows with just 800 million investment India can place a engine thats good enough I say

The latest J-20 and J-10 models are already equipped with the WS-10. Do not the J-10 is a single engined plane with higher demands for engine reliability ... and now we are seeing the WS-10 in it. What does this mean for the reliability of the WS-10?

If what you're saying about the Kaveri is true, then the Indian government basically set extremely low, almost negligible targets then lol.

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

One thing I always wonder is why there so much hype in India about Rafale Jets. I mean what extra do they bring to IAF which is more capable than what rest of the world has. Yes they are better than the existing inventory of IAF but in regards to rest of the world what is edge they have?

Can you ask your Chinese friends why PLA is retreating from LAC if IAF is using absolute planes?

 

[Tumba]

nobody does combat maneuvers at supersonic speeds. Overshoot just puts your back to the enemy plane = easy kill. Large turn radius at high speeds = low angular velocity = easy kill. USAF planes all maneuver at subsonic speeds to maintain tight turn radius. See US military publication pg. 46: https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf

"Above 330 KCAS, turn radius increases slightly as max G is obtained (440 KCAS)"

KCAS = knots calibrated airspeed, equivalent to 815 km/hr. Mach 1 is 1235 km/hr.

IRST tracking is short distance, typically 50-100 km at best. India also doesn't even manufacture its own IRST systems, while China does. Radar tracking is long range, with large AESA radars such as the one on the J-20 capable of tracking high RCS targets like the Su-30 from hundreds of km away.

@Figaro this is the difference in mentality between countries with stealth and countries without stealth. I remember that back in the 90's, Chinese fans would be talking about how to use J-8 and Su-27 to counter F-22. They used the exact same arguments as the Indians are now. Once PLAAF got their hands on J-20, they realized all that was mostly BS and that F-22 would have been devastating. PLAAF isn't even building regular J-10 and Su-30 anymore, they are only building AESA 4th gen fighters and J-20.

yaa I dont see where I have written something what doesnt agree with your post...J-20 canards provide high angle of attack in sub sonic speed thus more agility thats what I have written and
developing IRST system is not some crown tech India has already started the project meanwhile India has best tech available from west and russia so no hurry...

 

[Figaro]

developing IRST system is not some crown tech India has already started the project meanwhile India has best tech available from west and russia so no hurry...

LMAO why the hell do you think Russia or the US would give India access to the best technology when it can just rip off India more through arms purchases LOL. The reason why you guys even left the FGFA program (besides the obvious flaws with the Su-57) was that Russia refused to handover any sensitive technology, including the source code.

 

[Tumba]

The latest J-20 and J-10 models are already equipped with the WS-10. Do not the J-10 is a single engined plane with higher demands for engine reliability ... and now we are seeing the WS-10 in it. What does this mean for the reliability of the WS-10?

If what you're saying about the Kaveri is true, then the Indian government basically set extremely low, almost negligible targets then lol.

well wasting 300 billion USD like china and getting a banana jet engine who gives up at 800 hours is something only Plaaf can take up ... not even paf I guess that too on Jf-17 a chinese plane lol

LMAO why the hell do you think Russia or the US would give India access to the best technology when it can just rip off India more through arms purchases LOL.

Where did I say buying TOT for IRSt ,.. India just started the project for MWF project meanwhile India getting russian system for Ruskin planes and western tech for western planes

 

[Figaro]

well wasting 300 billion USD like china and getting a banana jet engine who gives up at 800 hours is something only Plaaf can take up ... not even paf I guess that too on Jf-17 a chinese plane lol

Once again, I have no idea why you are mentioning a 10 year old service life statistic for the WS-10. Also, where did you get the 300 billion dollars from???? Are you talking about 300 billion US dollars, or 300 billion Rupees (which would be much more realistic)? I love how you suddenly stopped talking about the Kaveri or as I like to call the "Indian Ghost Engine"

well wasting 300 billion USD like china and getting a banana jet engine who gives up at 800 hours is something only Plaaf can take up ... not even paf I guess that too on Jf-17 a chinese plane lol


Where did I say buying TOT for IRSt ,.. India just started the project for MWF project meanwhile India getting russian system for Ruskin planes and western tech for western planes

So basically no tech transfer then.

 

[Tumba]

Once again, I have no idea why you are mentioning a 10 year old service life statistic for the WS-10. Also, where did you get the 300 billion dollars from???? Are you talking about 300 billion US dollars, or 300 billion Rupees (which would be much more realistic)?


So basically no tech transfer then.

yes ur CcP has wasted 300 billion Usd to get jet engine tech lol I thought thats common knowledge coming again and again from Us think tanks,,,

 

[Figaro]

yes ur CcP has wasted 300 billion Usd to get jet engine tech lol I thought thats common knowledge coming again and again from Us think tanks,,,

Cite the source ... your stupidity is becoming more evident through your posts. I really think you should stop so you won't come off any dumber than you already are lol.

 

[Tumba]

Cite the source ... your stupidity is becoming more evident through your posts.

Not gonna waste time to scroll through 2 hour videos of american think tank videos on Youtube...
I post what I have listen...

Ws series at best provides 800 hours of life after that either total replacement or at best overhaul.

Chinese have spent over. 300 billions from last 3 decades to master the tech but still way behind even russia

The reliability is a major issue and most of the crashes never come in public due to chinese comtrol of information to public in china

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

yaa I dont see where I have written something what doesnt agree with your post...J-20 canards provide high angle of attack in sub sonic speed thus more agility thats what I have written and
developing IRST system is not some crown tech India has already started the project meanwhile India has best tech available from west and russia so no hurry...

subsonic maneuverability is what really matters for maneuverability. typically planes don't dogfight at supersonic speeds. From what I understand, planes use bursts of supersonic speed to close to engagement range or to escape missiles. so your claim that J-20 is maneuverable at "only" sub-sonic speeds... really just means that it's maneuverable, period. maybe a mechanical engineer can provide more details.

For radar, the AESA radar of the J-20 absolutely dominates the Su-30 MKI's PESA radar due to its capabilities for rapid frequency changing and multibeam forming that the PESA simply can't match. IRST doesn't even enter the equation. In a real war, the J-20 would've already detected Su-30 on radar, fired BVR missiles, probably even guided them more with midcourse corrections and left before IRST would be able to see them. The superior radar and shaping of the J-20 makes it just absolutely dominant over Su-30 MKI. Only AESA versions of Su-30 - like the J-16, also conveniently owned by China - can compete.

 

[Avatar]

Not my logic, those are the assessment of Russian experts, no one knows Indian military capabilities better than Russians.

Russians will always be critical of anything that India buys from a different supplier. In a hypothetical scenario that we buy Chinese jets, the Russians would say they are inferior copies of Russian or Israeli designs using Russian engine.

India is being dragged into an arm race that it can't afford. This "penny wise pound foolish" country just can't see what it's got itself into for a few km of land. I don't think they ever had a full retrospect of the 1962 border war.

I dont think you have a full retrospect of what you are saying and your only intention is to troll and derail every thread that has anything to do with India China stand off.

 

[Figaro]

Not gonna waste time to scroll through 2 hour videos of american think tank videos on Youtube...
I post what I have listen...

Ws series at best provides 800 hours of life after that either total replacement or at best overhaul.

Chinese have spent over. 300 billions from last 3 decades to master the tech but still way behind even russia

The reliability is a major issue and most of the crashes never come in public due to chinese comtrol of information to public in china

So basically you are just claiming this up your butt? Well, I gotta say if you want to invent a claim at least make it reasonable. 300 billion dollars is like me claiming I'm 100 feet tall lol.

And yet you make another red herring. Since when has China ever hidden crashes? AFAIK, the crashes are always known to the public. Indeed, several J-10s did crash to engine problems, but those were the Russian AL-31F engines, not Chinese Taihangs. Engines are not 100% foolproof so inevitability there will be crashes (although I have yet to see one with the WS-10). Of course its easy for you to say all this nonsense because Indian Kaveri is 100% reliable as it has never been placed in a plane lol besides the IL-76 high altitude test bed.

The DRDO currently hopes to have the Kaveri engine ready for use on the Tejas in the latter half of the 2010s decade[27] and according to latest news still research on it is going on and the time to complete its research has been extended to 2011-2012.[19]

 

[Avatar]

This is fake news. I agree, this is not good logic.

It is true that nobody knows the actual cost of the J-20. It could indeed be very expensive. However, unit cost isn't determined by quality, but by efficiency. A highly efficient, automated process can easily produce fighters of both higher quality and lower cost. And China is a leader in automation. Meanwhile, France is not known for its strength in industrial automation. They don't have a world class semiconductor fab, they don't have any industrial companies of note other than Thales and Alstom.

The end result could indeed be an inferior, yet high priced plane. I mean, Rafale costs the same as F-35, but Rafale has nowhere near the capabilities as F-35. US is also well known for industrial strength and the proof is in its world class semiconductor and machinery companies.

For our strategic requirement, Rafale fits the bill. It is one of the best 4++ gen multi role fighters in the world. The IAF is happy with the service and quality of products offered by France. IAF is already very well experienced and happy with other french fighters such as the Mirage. Diplomatically, France has offered full support to India in the recent conflict - this is also covered in the bill. The inflated price includes weapon system integration, modifications as well as service and spares.

Your assessment that Rafael is nowhere near F-35 capabilities is false and misguided. The only advantage that F-35 has over Rafael is stealth which is only beneficial in a covert strike/surgical strike op which we have already successfully conducted using much inferior Mirage jets. In air to air combat - the meteor missile has an edge over what most adversaries have to offer.

One thing I always wonder is why there so much hype in India about Rafale Jets. I mean what extra do they bring to IAF which is more capable than what rest of the world has. Yes they are better than the existing inventory of IAF but in regards to rest of the world what is edge they have?

One key benefit is the Meteor BVR missile which extends the IAF's BVR engagement range from present 80 Kms to 120 Kms, which is a flat increase of 50% - clearly a game changer. With Rafale, IAF can engage air targets upto 120 kms inside enemy territory without crossing violating its airspace, 40 kms deeper than before.



Induction of Astra BVR missiles will also help extend range of other fighters such as Su 30's and LCA.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

When I say sub sonic speed I dont say its some super manoeuvrable plateform canards do provide some help but to complete in dogfight not possible with even early generation Mig-29...

Here everyone pretty much knows how Pesa and Aesa works but once you use your radar passive signatures can be caught on and locked by ground based or air based assets...

how though? the biggest advantage of AESA radar over PESA radar is that it can 1. frequency change rapidly and 2. transmit multiple frequencies simultaneously.

Because of that, it is much harder to jam (you can't focus all jamming on one frequency, and broadband jamming has less energy per given frequency) and much harder to detect (radar detection requires a series of pulses to identify, but AESA radar doesn't repeat pulses, every pulse changes frequency).

@Figaro too many Indians think that one or two features would be a knockout win for them. But it's never that simple. it's always a combination. For example they think that if they can counter J-20's stealth the J-20 will be like a propeller plane. But the J-20 also has decent subsonic maneuverability, extremely long range missiles (PL-15), and extremely good AESA radar. Even unarmed it's radar and stealth make it a major threat, so it has uses on the battlefield even after it fires its weapons. And that's just J-20. There's still J-10C, J-16 and J-11B, KJ series AWACs, etc.

 

[IblinI]

otherwise chinese public must have heard about 40 skulls being crushed of their countrymen in ladakh

Somehow your 3 officers among 10 captured/surrendered?C'mon,basic logic is needed.