Indian navy's Project 17-A

[indiatech]

Project 17-A: French shipyard, DCNS, leads in race to be design consultant


Major global warship-makers are carefully watching the Indian Navy’s Project 17-A, potentially India’s biggest-ever naval purchase, a Rs 17,000 crore plan to build seven stealth frigates. And French shipbuilder, DCNS --- through a clever “first-mover” strategy --- is poised to play a major role in that project.

On 27th Feb 09, the DCNS board gave the thumbs up for a three-party design consultancy along with Kolkata shipyard, Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE), and Indian IT engineers Infotech Enterprises. The JV will design ships for global clients, including back office work for DCNS, one of the world’s biggest warship builders.

But the first design job that the JV is shooting for is Project 17-A. Despite the Indian success in designing and building quality warships, Project 17-A needs a design partner. This is because all seven frigates will be built using an advanced manufacturing process --- modular shipbuilding --- which is used by top shipyards in the US and Europe.

India has never done modular shipbuilding. This involves constructing a several-thousand-ton warship in 300-ton blocks, which are then brought together and assembled, like a Lego game, into a complete warship. Each 300-ton block is built separately, complete with all the piping, electrical wiring and fitments that would be a part of the ship. These must precisely connect with their counterpart in the neighbouring block, coming together in perfect alignment.

This is the expertise that DCNS is hoping to sell as the foreign design partner for Project 17-A. DCNS has positioned itself well for the bid. The DCNS-GRSE-Infotech JV will have the advantage of bidding as an Indian company. Besides the Scorpene programme with MDL, DCNS has worked with both shipyards on several projects. And, importantly, the modular construction infrastructure coming up in MDL and GRSE is very similar to that in DCNS’s shipyards in France.

Admiral Malhi points out, “We already have a relationship with DCNS; we are building the Scorpene together. They have the same infrastructure as we have, which means that the drawings they make can be easily translated into warships in our yard. But we will keep our options open by asking (Italian shipyard) Fincantieri to bid as well.”

With GRSE and MDL insisting that Project 17-A be built entirely in India (Business Standard had reported yesterday that the Indian Navy wanted the first two frigates to be built abroad by the design partner) they have joined forces, rather than competing for the order. For the first time ever, a project may be split between two shipyards. Admiral Mahli explains, “We have to ensure that the navy gets all these seven warships by 2021. That means GRSE and MDL might both work concurrently on Project 17 A; you might have four built in MDL and three in GRSE. There is enough work for both shipyards.

No Indian defence shipyard is equipped yet for modular construction; but so lucrative is the Project 17-A contract that both GRSE and Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai (MDL) are spending hundreds of crores on creating modular construction facilities by mid-2011, by when assembly of the Project 17-A frigates is due to start. The facilities include a covered workshop large enough for constructing 300-ton modules inside; a sliding roof for lifting out the completed modules; a 300-ton Goliath crane, on rails that extend across two or three slipways, for conveying the completed module to whichever frigate it is meant for.

Admiral HS Malhi, Chairman of MDL, says progress is on schedule. “Italian company, Fagioli, in partnership with McNally Bharat Engineering (MBE), is building the 300-ton Goliath crane. With a span of 138 metres, it will be the longest in India, stretching across the two slipways and across the modular workshop.”

 

[nitesh]

It' a good leap forward if you compare it to ADS building: check this out

Modular shipbuilding is far more complex, akin to a giant Lego game. The warship is built in 300-tonne blocks, each block complete with all the piping, electrical wiring and fitments that form a part of the ship. Then these 300-tonne blocks are brought together by giant cranes and assembled into a complete warship.

This creates an entirely different set of design challenges. Each bulkhead wall, each pipe, each cable, and each electronic component in a 300-tonne block must precisely connect with its counterpart in the neighbouring block. Each block is designed separately, but all of them must come together in perfect alignment.

If you see ADS building it is just the blocks fitment will be done later:
LiveFist: Photos: Keel-laying ceremony of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier

 

[Gabbar]

Are they going to use GE engines for this ship? And what kind of protection it has agianst Cruise and Bllistic missiles?

 

[Gabbar]

India’s Project 17-A Stealth Frigates

In our July 2006 article “India Orders 3 More Krivak III/Talwar Class Frigates,” DID noted that the Talwar/Krivak Class were better described as modern multi-role designs, given the presence of other classes with far better stealth features. The follow-on Project 17/ Shivalik Class offered improvements in that area, with 3 ships ordered and the possibility of more too follow.

In December 2006, India Defence reported that India was looking to acquire up to 7 more frigates with stealth improvements, and some level of joint development and technology transfer. The Request for Information (RFI), has reportedly been issued to about 12 European and Russian firms.

These “Project 17A” ships could be worth up to 30,000 crore (INR 300 billion, about $5.8 billion as of March 2009) for the right contractor. Or, India could end up spending those funds domestically. That political controversy has stalled a contract award, even as France’s DCNS prepares a joint venture aimed at securing the project…

India Defense characterizes this P-17A project as the next generation ships of the ongoing Project 17 Shivalik class multi-role stealth frigates. Ship “signature reduction” levels are expected to be up to fully modern standards, similar to Singapore’s new Formidable Class frigates from France (a Lafayette Class derivative).

Though Project 17 was approved in 1997, the first Shivalik class ship is only expected in 2009 due to construction delays and other hold-ups. The overall program envisages a total of 12 ships, and the 7 Project 17-A ships would form a part of it.

The proposed P-17A acquisition has had different figures floated. Early figures mentioned Rs 30,000 crore (300 billion Indian rupees, then about $6.7 billion), with expected costs of Rs 4,000 crore (then about $892 million) per ship. March 2009 reports give figures of Rs 17,000 crore, or about $3.3 billion at that time. As a basis of comparison, India’s July 2006 order for 3 more Talwar Class frigates amounted to Rs 5,114 crore, or between $400-550 million per vessel.

The other area of uncertainty revolves around the industrial arrangements. Typical Indian contracts involve some number of ships built by the manufacturer and others built at Mazagon Docks Ltd MDL) in Mumbai, or Garden Reach Shipyard (GRSE) in Kolkata. On the other hand, in 2006 Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta specifically referred to force modernization problems stemming from both constraints on defense budgets, and the inability of Indian shipyards to deliver quickly. He added that:

“It is not necessary that we will take this route [of using MDL or Garden Reach], adding that the other Indian shipyards may step up warship production to meet the projected force levels.”

That option would disappear if these ships use modular construction, based on 300-tonne “blocks” that are fully equipped, and must fit together so precisely that pipes, wiring, and other components all align. MDL and GRSE are the only shipyards with the depth of experience to pull that off, but neither has ever used modular constrction.

Which leads to India’s 3rd option: build some of these ships at foreign shipyards, as the government is doing with its July 2006 “Improved Krivak Class” frigate order. The Navy would prefer to have MDL and/or GRSE workers learn by working at a shipyard with experience in this approach, then bring the skills back to India. As opposed to trying to learn a completely new shipbuilding method, while trying to build Navy ships and having the Navy foot the bill for any mistakes.

Based on past history, and the experience of other countries, India’s Director of Naval Design Rear Adm. Badhwar is clever to be cautious. Mistakes using the new modular method would be extremely expensive. The level of rework required could easily turn the Indian shipyards’ purported 100% cost advantage into a deficit, while creating project delays that would extend for months – and might even be measured in years.
Contracts and Key Events
March 27/09: French shipbuilder DCNS’s board approves a 3-party design consultancy with Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) of Kolkata, and the I.T. engineers of Infotech Enterprises. The consultancy will design ships for global clients, including back office work for DCNS itself. As India’s Business Standard reports:

“But the first design job that the JV is shooting for is Project 17-A, [which] needs a design partner…. because all seven frigates will be built using an advanced manufacturing process – modular shipbuilding…. Each 300-ton block is built separately, complete with all the piping, electrical wiring and fitments that would be a part of the ship. These must precisely connect…. This is the expertise that DCNS is hoping to sell as the foreign design partner for Project 17-A.”

indian shipbuilders GRSE and MDL are lobbying to have the frigates built entirely in India, and have joined forces to that end. The result may be India’s first dual-shipyard naval contract. Meanwhile, the firms are investing in the equipment required for modular construction, including large covered workshops with sliding roofs for module lift-out, and a 300-tonne, 138m span Goliath crane from Italy’s Fagioli and McNally Bharat Engineering.

March 27/09: India’s Business Standard reports that the crore 17,000 ($ equivalent) Project 17-A contract is stalled due a dispute between India’s Navy, and its 2 major shipyards. The Navy is insisting that the first 2 ships be built in a European shipyard, even if it doubles those ships’ bid cost.

Why? Because these ships will use modular construction based on 300-tonne “blocks” that are fully equipped, and must fit together so precisely that pipes, wiring, and other components all align. Neither Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) in Mumbai, nor Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) in Kolkata, has ever used this method. The Navy would prefer to have their workers learn by working at a shipyard with experience in this approach, before bringing the skills back to India. Rear Admiral MK Badhwar, India’s Director of Naval Design:

“This will also make the vendor demonstrate ‘buildability.’ He must demonstrate that his design can be actually built into a warship, using modular construction, in four years. That will create a demonstrated benchmark for GRSE and MDL; otherwise, if there are delays later, our shipyards could argue that the foreign yard too would have taken a long period to build each frigate.”

March 6/09: India’s Business Times reports that an overzealous US State Department bureaucrat appears to have created a serious delay in the related Project 17 program, after ordering GE to stop work on the program. Unlike the Krivak III Class, Shivalik Class ships use 2 American LM2500 turbines in place of Russian designs.

If India is lucky, the delay will be only 2 months. If the State Department’s actions cause India to miss sea trials due to the monsoon season, the delay could be many months longer. In the end, all the State Department may succeed in doing is jeopardizing the chances of other American companies under consideration for Indian defense buys. Read “US State Dept. Throws A Wrench Into Exports, Allied Shipbuilding” for more.

Dec 24/07: India Defence relays a story which suggests that state-run arms export agency Rosoboronexport may be negotiating with Indian authorities for the construction of a fresh lot of 3 “stealth frigates.”

From the reports, it would appear that negotiations are for an order over and above the follow-on order for 3 Talwar Class frigates – either more Project 17 Shivalik Class ships, or the initial Project 17A contract. As with all such reports concerning India, however, a wait-and-see attitude is advised.

December 2006: India issues an RFI for “stealth frigates.” They are looking to acquire up to 7 ships under “Project 17A”, along with some level of joint development and technology transfer.

These ships could be modified “Project 17” Shivalik Class frigates, which are an enlarged and enhanced design derived from the Kirvak IIIs. On the other hand, the RFI was issued to a number of foreign shipbuilders, raising the possibility that Project 17A ships could use an entirely different base platform.
India’s Project 17-A Stealth Frigates

 

[Contrarian]

Surprising. They are moving from batches of 3 warships to 7!

Usually, every class of warship is ordered in batches of 3. And many a times, only 3!

 

[indiatech]

Surprising. They are moving from batches of 3 warships to 7!

Usually, every class of warship is ordered in batches of 3. And many a times, only 3!

Actually good for the shipyards. MDL expects batches of 15 . Navy can then get a good bergain on the price and MDL can improve the infracture with larger drydocs to build larger ships. Also with large orgers , the classes will tend to get standardized, which improves delivery time of the shipbuilders.

 

[kingkong]

Nice India really has the best
naval ships in the world.

 

[white_pawn]

yup india has to increase the batch from 3 to 6 as some ships would replace the old one and shoud also be able to increase the number of ships for its navy periodically, considering future roles of the navy. As indian navy is now geting involved in deep water roles as below.

1. In conjunction with other armed forces of the union, act to deter or defeat any threats or aggression against the territory, people or maritime interests of India, both in war and peace.

2. Project influence in India's maritime area of interest, to further the nation’s political, economic and security objectives.

3. In cooperation with the Indian Coast Guard, ensure good order and stability in India's maritime zones of responsibility.

4. Provide maritime assistance (including disaster relief) in India's maritime neighbourhood.

5. To play a key role as part of 'a pluralistic security order' for a better world.

So consedering this IN has to expand accordingly.

 

[white_pawn]

Advanced warship programme: Navy says build abroad

Friday, Mar 27, 2009

The Indian Navy’s Project 17 is nearing completion; three Indian-designed-and-built stealth frigates of the Shivalik class are on track to enter service. Now, attention has switched to Project 17-A, the country’s biggest-ever naval purchase, a Rs 17,000 crore plan to build seven stealth frigates that are even more advanced than the Shivalik class.

The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has long cleared the project, but no order has yet been placed by the Ministry of Defence. Business Standard has learned that the order is held up by a difference of opinion between the shipyards and the navy on where these frigates should be built.

The two defence shipyards capable of manufacturing 5000-tonne frigates — Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) — argue that Project 17-A should be built entirely in India. The Indian Navy insists that the first two frigates should be built in a foreign shipyard. After the Indian shipyards have observed how it is done, they can build the next five vessels.

At the heart of the disagreement is a new, highly advanced building method — modular shipbuilding — that India will use for Project 17-A, and for all projects thereafter.

Conventional shipbuilding was relatively simple: first weld together a steel hull, and then put in the engines, piping, electrical wiring, fitments, weaponry and electronics that make it a fighting platform. Modular shipbuilding is far more complex, akin to a giant Lego game. The warship is built in 300-tonne blocks, each block complete with all the piping, electrical wiring and fitments that form a part of the ship. Then these 300-tonne blocks are brought together by giant cranes and assembled into a complete warship.

This creates an entirely different set of design challenges. Each bulkhead wall, each pipe, each cable, and each electronic component in a 300-tonne block must precisely connect with its counterpart in the neighbouring block. Each block is designed separately, but all of them must come together in perfect alignment.

This method has never been used by either MDL or GRSE; they accept the need for a foreign design partner. But both shipyards, having successfully built frigates of the Brahmaputra and the Shivalik class, claim they already have the expertise needed to build Project 17-A, based on the foreign partner’s drawings. Admiral HS Malhi, Chairman and Managing Director (CMD) of MDL says, “We need to go abroad for the production drawings… But for actual modular construction, no technology is required to be transferred”

The Navy believes that if MDL and GRSE try to master this skill while they build the first Project 17-A frigates, the entire programme will be delayed unacceptably. Instead, the Director of Naval Design, Rear Admiral MK Badhwar, says the foreign design partner selected should built the first two frigates in his own shipyard, observed by Indian workmen who can thereby pick up the skills.

The DND says, “This will also make the vendor demonstrate “buildability”. He must demonstrate that his design can be actually built into a warship, using modular construction, in four years. That will create a demonstrated benchmark for GRSE and MDL; otherwise, if there are delays later, our shipyards could argue that the foreign yard too would have taken a long period to build each frigate.”

The MoD’s is finding it difficult to reconcile these two viewpoints, partly because a decision to build two frigates abroad would sharply escalate the cost of Project 17-A. Each Shivalik class stealth frigate, built in MDL, cost Rs 2000-2500 crores. The bill for a comparable frigate, built in a European shipyard for the Australian navy, has come to more than double that figure.

 

[Rajkumar]

after 15-B going for 17-A go india

 

[CONNAN]

The seven follow-on Project 17 (Alpha) stealth frigates to be built in India will have a significant Indian weapons fit. The Project 17 stealth frigate INS Shivalik that was commissioned into the Indian Navy yesterday is equipped with the Russian Shtil and Klub and Israeli Barak missile system. According to Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) chairman Vice Admiral (Retd) HS Malhi, the follow on Alpha series will carry the BrahMos anti-ship and land attack supersonic cruise missile in vertical configuration and the Barak-8 long-range surface to air missile (LR-SAM). MDL will build four of the P17(A) frigates, while the Garden Reach Shipbuilders (GRSE) will build the other three in Kolkata. The class feature frigates that will be longer and broader than the Shivalik-class. And instead of the Italian Otobreda 76-mm super rapid gun mount (SRGM), the P17(A) warships will have a 127-mm main gun, most likely the Otobreda 127/64 light weight gun.

 

[CONNAN]

the guns caliber is more than every battle tank gun caliber feilded today in the world wide armies lol

 

[KS]

A bit OT:

Why wasnt Brahmos Fitted on to the P-17 frigates..I mean the Shivalik class..?

 

[nakodo]

^
Probably because VLS Brahmos arrived on the scene much later (18/12/08), to make changes in the ship.

 

[Indian-Devil]

But still it could have been configured at 20-30 degree angle (inclined way ) Like its installed on other ships. Anyway club is also in same range og Brahmos, but only its lack in its speed. May be brahmos could be installed at later stage or may be in overhaul of the ships after few years.