Indian Navy delays sailing into new era of ‘invisible’ warships

[Mauryan]

As for comparing US vs Russian weapons, I won't waste my time as its obvious that US has the best technology. US is a generation away from the Russians. As matter in fact, Russian technology is closer to Indian and Ethiopian technology than to the US technology. This might not be the case during the cold war. But Russia is a shell of the former soviet union

Do you know what? I cant refrain from using this word after reading your ignorant posts in the same thread. You are a door nob. Even yankees worry abt russian technology.And now I have to hear from a person who just dropped into the defence world. this is gonna be my last reply for you,considering that its not worth wasting my time.

 

[below_freezing]

LOL your were talking about Aegis that Indian Navy not even bought! But India already bought P-8I and US started producing P-8A. Three being built and under going flight tests. Indian Navy will get first P-8I within two years.



Before selecting Boeing India verified aircrafts from France, Israel ad Russia.



We were talking about PLAN.




As far as technology is concerned China will not be in position to surpass Russia/Europe in decades to come. They needs help from Russia for everything in every way. It will take many decades for China to produce equivalent of PAK FA, Akula or Type-45 and many other things.

India have access to US, Israeli, Russian and European technologies. India buys the weapons that she felt better. US weapons is not always better wrt money. For example China may reverse engineer S-300 and Su-27 but that doesn't mean they are better than the original products. Innovation and reverse engineering is two completely different things.

Technology wise MF-STAR+Barak-NG is better than what China can get before 2020.



100% wrong. Recent exercises with Europe and US proved that Russia have edged in some area. Russia produces some of the best missiles, fighters, ships, submarines in the world.

MF-star Barak is a short range point defense system.

There is nothing in the indian navy that can even come close to our 150 km range HHQ-9 area defense SAM, there isn't even a SAM in the indian navy that can hit over 50 km. Other than Barak, India's destroyers all lack VLS. there is nothing that can come close to our 052C stealth anti air destroyers in terms of phase array radars which are equipped with the chinese AEGIS equivalent. There is no innovation in indian navy, there is only buying. It is an insult to the word innovation by placing it in the same sentence with the indian navy.

 

[blain2]

Yes, Chinese are good at making substandard counterfeit copies, just like tainted baby milk powder, lead toys, and all pirated CDS & DVDS. They are good at hacking & stealing. Here in US they are flooding markets with cheap imitation designer goods. And now they are selling crap military hardware to Pakistan!

They used the same crappy substandard hardware to beat India into submission in 62 and to carry on their long march. Quality isn't a domain of Indians and the West only. While you talk about tainted baby milk powder (which has absolutely nothing to do with this threat), keep in mind the PC/laptop that you are using is most likely made in China. China is not all low-tech. I'd suggest you take a trip.

Pakistan is happy with the Chinese hardware as it only gets better with time. I'd rather go into a battle with a gun in my hand, which will stay in my hands, rather than a fancy rifle with sanctioned ammunition.

 

[Kinetic]

MF-star Barak is a short range point defense system.

There is nothing in the indian navy that can even come close to our 150 km range HHQ-9 area defense SAM, there isn't even a SAM in the indian navy that can hit over 50 km. Other than Barak, India's destroyers all lack VLS. there is nothing that can come close to our 052C stealth anti air destroyers in terms of phase array radars which are equipped with the chinese AEGIS equivalent. There is no innovation in indian navy, there is only buying. It is an insult to the word innovation by placing it in the same sentence with the indian navy.

First we have to know what is Aegis? Aegis is a combat system, later it is developed as a BMD system as well!! Now China does not have any ship based BMD so forget any Chinese equivalent of Aegis!! If you talk about combat system than even Brahmaputra class FFG from India have their own combat system.

Next, you are talking about range, PAC-2 had greater range than PAC-3 than why this new upgrade? Does range means better? NO!!! Chinese HQ-9 has longer range but that doesn't mean it is better. One thing you must notice that China made HQ-9 as a copy of S-300 but still they are buying S-300!! On the other hand India can buy Aegis BMD but going for Barak-8/NG because it suites Indian requirements better. It uses technologies that is way more advanced than anything China can get before 2020. I am assuming you know something about Barak-8/NG/MR-SAM.

 

[faithfulguy]

First we have to know what is Aegis? Aegis is a combat system, later it is developed as a BMD system as well!! Now China does not have any ship based BMD so forget any Chinese equivalent of Aegis!! If you talk about combat system than even Brahmaputra class FFG from India have their own combat system.

Next, you are talking about range, PAC-2 had greater range than PAC-3 than why this new upgrade? Does range means better? NO!!! Chinese HQ-9 has longer range but that doesn't mean it is better. One thing you must notice that China made HQ-9 as a copy of S-300 but still they are buying S-300!! On the other hand India can buy Aegis BMD but going for Barak-8/NG because it suites Indian requirements better. It uses technologies that is way more advanced than anything China can get before 2020. I am assuming you know something about Barak-8/NG/MR-SAM.

Just wondering, how do you know China can get such a weapon by 2020, why not 2030 or 2015? Also, what about this weapon that is even more suitable for Indian navy and that aegis is not as suitable?

 

[cosmos]

First we have to know what is Aegis? Aegis is a combat system, later it is developed as a BMD system as well!! Now China does not have any ship based BMD so forget any Chinese equivalent of Aegis!! If you talk about combat system than even Brahmaputra class FFG from India have their own combat system.

Next, you are talking about range, PAC-2 had greater range than PAC-3 than why this new upgrade? Does range means better? NO!!! Chinese HQ-9 has longer range but that doesn't mean it is better. One thing you must notice that China made HQ-9 as a copy of S-300 but still they are buying S-300!! On the other hand India can buy Aegis BMD but going for Barak-8/NG because it suites Indian requirements better. It uses technologies that is way more advanced than anything China can get before 2020. I am assuming you know something about Barak-8/NG/MR-SAM.

BS..SM3 naval version of PAC-3 has longer range than PAC-3 and SM-2, ,yes, it's way better than the shorter range, and AEGIS AB is way better than than Israelis in both electronics and weapons on board..

The s-300 pmu-2 that just got delivered recently was ordered way back in 2004 and is land base.

Chinese DDG armed with HHQ-9A, not HQ-9. HHQ-9A is a naval version of HQ-9 same way *** PAC-3 and SM-3; both are Not the same.

052c 4 AESA radars + HHQ9a maybe inferior to the US aegis burk class, but NOT inferior to a shorter range tracking and engaging mf-star barak -8.

You chose Israeli over aegis because the aegis was never officially offered to you. Just because some guys in the defense said they wants to sell to you doesn't mean that all the politicians will agree..Look at the nuclear deal that Mr. Bush offered before. India chose Russia to build all their nuke plants instead..They cannot wait, also the aegis is way more more expensive..

 

[below_freezing]

First we have to know what is Aegis? Aegis is a combat system, later it is developed as a BMD system as well!! Now China does not have any ship based BMD so forget any Chinese equivalent of Aegis!! If you talk about combat system than even Brahmaputra class FFG from India have their own combat system.

Next, you are talking about range, PAC-2 had greater range than PAC-3 than why this new upgrade? Does range means better? NO!!! Chinese HQ-9 has longer range but that doesn't mean it is better. One thing you must notice that China made HQ-9 as a copy of S-300 but still they are buying S-300!! On the other hand India can buy Aegis BMD but going for Barak-8/NG because it suites Indian requirements better. It uses technologies that is way more advanced than anything China can get before 2020. I am assuming you know something about Barak-8/NG/MR-SAM.

you also do not know what AEGIS is. it is a ship based fire control system for missile guidance. ABM is one of its many functions, but it is not limited to ABM. at the core of AEGIS is its radar: the AN/SPY-1 naval radar which uses passive electronically scanned array.

We have an equivalent. The type 348 Radar has a range of 450 km using AESA.

Type 052C destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

without long range radars and long range missiles, india's navy would not get very far in a confrontation with even the South Korean air force, much less China's PLAN Air Arm.

 

[DMLA]

I haven't followed this thread but is it me or people here are comparing an Anti Submarine Warfare frigate with an air defence destroyer?

IN has decided on the barak 8ER version for its fleet air defence. This would equip our P-15B destroyers which are in design stage at this point.

Also, Aegis has "officially" been offered to IN and there have been entire threads on this topic . It is highly likely that IN will go for Aegis equipped ships for one of its projects. I would urge posters here to wait till such announcements are made. Of course, IN has no ship currently in its arsenal which can equal the Type 52C's. However, unlike PLAN, IN does not have a threat from the US navy . At most we will have to deal with PN and not PLAN!

 

[DMLA]

you also do not know what AEGIS is. it is a ship based fire control system for missile guidance. ABM is one of its many functions, but it is not limited to ABM. at the core of AEGIS is its radar: the AN/SPY-1 naval radar which uses passive electronically scanned array.

We have an equivalent. The type 348 Radar has a range of 450 km using AESA.

Type 052C destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

without long range radars and long range missiles, india's navy would not get very far in a confrontation with even the South Korean air force, much less China's PLAN Air Arm.

I believe that these ranges are not disclosed by any country. What they do disclose are some broad numbers of detection or tracking. EL/M-2248 has an auto track range of 250+ km (detection has to be much higher). SPY-1D(V) has a track & intercept range of ~ 300 km. IMO, it would also depend on the size of the radar arrays and the band of operations (mostly S band I believe).
I feel MF-STAR provides a very good area air defence capability with barak 8 and barak-8ER missiles. IN has to mostly face subsonic or at max. terminal supersonic ASM's. The proposed defences are IMO more than enough!

 

[below_freezing]

however it has no way to engage enemy fighter aircraft itself due to its short range, only the missiles fired by them. even then, the probability of intercept is not 100%, and any miss would result in a possible loss of the ship, whereas the 051C and 052C with 100+ km range SAMs can attack the aircraft itself.

 

[DMLA]

Barak 8ER has 130+ km intercept range. Barak 8 has 80km intercept range. P-15A (3 ships) & P-15B (4 ships) are to be fitted with these respectively. Also, P-17A (7 ships) will get the Barak-8 SAM's.

However, I believe this is going offtopic and people should talk about the delayed shivalik commissioning.

 

[Kinetic]

Just wondering, how do you know China can get such a weapon by 2020, why not 2030 or 2015?

That is called assumption based on facts. Thats how technologies are developed and businesses are done through out the world. If you can do it better, you can do better business!

Also, what about this weapon that is even more suitable for Indian navy and that aegis is not as suitable?

First US offered Aegis to India and also made a presentation but India Navy rejected it in favor of Barak-NG/MRSAM based Indian combat system. Also you have to note that India expects enemy ballistic missile will come from West and North over land not water so there is no point of buying an expensive system. When you have indigenous solution why should you go for foreign one any way! Indian one may not be as capable as Aegis but Indian system atleast.

 

[Kinetic]

BS..SM3 naval version of PAC-3 has longer range than PAC-3 and SM-2, ,yes, it's way better than the shorter range, and AEGIS AB is way better than than Israelis in both electronics and weapons on board..

The s-300 pmu-2 that just got delivered recently was ordered way back in 2004 and is land base.

Chinese DDG armed with HHQ-9A, not HQ-9. HHQ-9A is a naval version of HQ-9 same way *** PAC-3 and SM-3; both are Not the same.

052c 4 AESA radars + HHQ9a maybe inferior to the US aegis burk class, but NOT inferior to a shorter range tracking and engaging mf-star barak -8.

You chose Israeli over aegis because the aegis was never officially offered to you. Just because some guys in the defense said they wants to sell to you doesn't mean that all the politicians will agree..Look at the nuclear deal that Mr. Bush offered before. India chose Russia to build all their nuke plants instead..They cannot wait, also the aegis is way more more expensive..

PAC-3 is not the naval version of SM3!!!! Educate yourself first! Stop interrupting with unrelated BS!!! Go through all the posts before commenting. Comparing PAC-3 with SM3 indicates your knowledge!!

 

[Kinetic]

you also do not know what AEGIS is. it is a ship based fire control system for missile guidance. ABM is one of its many functions, but it is not limited to ABM. at the core of AEGIS is its radar: the AN/SPY-1 naval radar which uses passive electronically scanned array.

lol Do you know what a combat system is? Do you know that fire control system is a part of combat system? I said Aegis is a combat system but you came to a conclusion that I don't know anything about it!!!

We have an equivalent. The type 348 Radar has a range of 450 km using AESA.

Type 052C destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That Ukrainian radar does not have 450 km range as mentioned in wiki. It has 160 km range.

without long range radars and long range missiles, india's navy would not get very far in a confrontation with even the South Korean air force, much less China's PLAN Air Arm.

PLAN's air arm? Does PLAN operate any carrier? Indian Navy operates carrier and building two more. PLAN is 30 years behind Indian Navy in terms of operating air arm over ocean!

 

[faithfulguy]

That is called assumption based on facts. Thats how technologies are developed and businesses are done through out the world. If you can do it better, you can do better business! .

so in another word, you just BS. I had just read all the posted and links after this one and it shows that China actually deploy weapon systems similar to the Aegis, despite being less capable.

First US offered Aegis to India and also made a presentation but India Navy rejected it in favor of Barak-NG/MRSAM based Indian combat system. Also you have to note that India expects enemy ballistic missile will come from West and North over land not water so there is no point of buying an expensive system. When you have indigenous solution why should you go for foreign one any way! Indian one may not be as capable as Aegis but Indian system atleast.

India does not currently have aegis now and unless India wants its ship sink by PN or eventual chinese AC based planes, India better consider Aegis system as is not good enough. I will explain more letter.