Nilgiri
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Friend, this is not a subject I really care for much in first place (especially to engage with strong conviction person like you). You and I learn a lot and interact much better on other topics outside of the subcontinent "personal" zone kind of stuff (i.e greater grander concepts of conservatism, morals, successful military, history etc). Let's leave it at that my friend.
I for one personally judge facts as facts and faith as faith. I do not like when there is intermixing of these.
A country/border is a fact. It exists and it can be proven.
But a faith is always a faith in the end...it exists in ultimately an unprovable way.
We can discuss/debate what measure/level of it or kind of it is best for society etc....but the grey area comes when we start to profess that what we believe in it, requires something to be taken away (belief wise) from another group that professes the same....when ultimately the faith itself delegates this in the end exclusively to the ultimate absolute moral-hood giver himself. So I do not like to get into the man-made emotions and definitions and interpretations and what have you....we are all mortals in the end with imperfection and fatal flaw inside us that makes us who we are. The only thing we know and can truly prove to another is we are born, we live and we die...that is our reality, always was, always will be. It is why we have faith in the end at all...it is a positive thing, light at end of tunnel in otherwise default negative void of reality....for we know what is going to happen to us all in the end as fact....but we believe there is something beyond that end, is it not?
Take for example my Tamil culture ....arguably our greatest "grander" kind of higher-faith music has been mostly composed and sung by Muslim people. I say it as a non-Muslim myself...as these songs speak to something higher than any human division or interpretation. Muslims do it (grander simple upstream stuff) far more than us Hindus given we are often much more focused on various "downstream" details rather than the grander concept of faith itself (which we do not proclaim so much as we once used to due to various interjecting factors and concepts I wont go into here....though many of us do recognise the original upstream in a spiritual way in the end....the very thing we posit in our utterance of AUM).
Simply put our your hand and be patient and HE will give to you in his infinite mercy and compassion sang the great (dearly missed) Nagore Hanifa in his signature song... @Chhatrapati may know this one. Rest of the lines all revolve and add to that basic message. Only ever a positive, additive message (whatever the listener's reality and condition)...people can come listen and partake of it....it is their free will choice and no judgement meted out for this either way.
It is enjoyed by both faithful of any religious persuasion and also the non-faithful (Agnostic, atheist too)....because it speaks a message very high (that rises above everything that sullies and saddens in this reality we are born into). This is why I can appreciate and recognise what the sufi saints did to bring people to their fold far more than any human force could. It is when Islam (or any religion really) goes to the high ground and lead by example and higher message...that the yearning masses come to listen and understand.
When it does not do this (when it is used by people who largely do not practice what they preach), when any religion does not do it....and instead decides to intervene and interject into ultimately the "fact" world of human created divisions....that is when the grace, compassion, nuance and perspective is all lost...all the things that make a religion great, all that makes spirituality a vital sustenance that ought to connect people rather than divide them....and default narrative becomes like every other human made thing....to get something, another must relinquish it.
This is what @The Sandman and others correctly warn about in this thread.
Countries are in the end a human made thing (And thus flawed, the degree to which is always open to debate, but what cannot be denied is that every single one is flawed). Arguably your greatest intellect (who I actually was talking about some days back with a friend when we explored what we remember of subatomic principles) in modern time.... had his grave defaced (called for by the "country" as it existed then and now) because again, imperfect people intervened by way of their personal judgement over leaving it to the almighty. @M. Sarmad @Jaanbaz @Sher Shah Awan all have spoken a lot on this concept better than I could.
Similar story again with Yahya Khan....did all kind of non-islamic things quite openly....yet he led the charge to admonish and correct "less muslim" people as he saw it....by virtue of just the (human made) political power invested into him (that did not come either from the people nor the God they believed in). But even with him , I say leave it to almighty to judge upon it conclusively in the end. That is the grand thing of faith, every sin is marked and dealt with. So we should leave it at that....rather than speculate and bring it forth in our own minds to use (emotionally at best, nefariously at worst) against any other individual or group of people (within or outside some country of ours).....especially in place of practicing it ourselves and setting and leading by good example. In fact the lack of the latter is what leads to the former taking its place....in my opinion they compete for the exact same amount of human existence in the end.
That is all I really have to say on this subject.
@Joe Shearer @scorpionx @jbgt90 @VCheng @AgNoStiC MuSliM @Atlas @bluesky
....do not let it control your time/life.
