Indian Muslims and Liberals are trapped in a toxic relationship

[Joe Shearer]

You were about to earn positive rating from my side, but you tagged Shehla Rashid and Umar Khalid as progressive Muslims, I put my finger down.
Umar Khalid and Shehla Rashid were involved in "Bharat tere tukde honge.. InshAllah gang". They just want to popular by hook and crook to make their political career.
Progressive Muslims are like Arif Mohammed Khan, Shezaad Poonawala, Yana Mir, and those who are being killed in Kashmir just for holding Indian flag in their hands.

Of course!

Logical and natural.

'Tera kutta, kutta, mera kutta, Tommy.'

 

[Buddhistforlife]

So more domesticated Muslims are needed in India, who are liberal (= totally indifferent towards Islam, only Arabic or Persian names)?

When the white masters demand liberalism we should become liberals, right? Don’t we - and this includes Hindus too - have an own culture, history, religion and codes of conduct? Why must we become copies of the West?

I don’t like liberals either, in the West they try to use minorities for political gain and some Muslims fall for it because they are so desperate that everybody who has a slightly positive attitude towards Islam becomes their super hero. Even though they promote things that are not only alien to Islam but also totally against it. Sorry we don’t Need the LGBTQGJGIPUYZ-People to be successful, we don’t need politicians to tell us that we are victims and need their protection. This mentality and state worship is the reason why some Muslims don’t prosper in the West!

Muslims need to grow a spine and stop this submissive behavior. Seriously.

PS: Liberalism is not a synonym for everything good in this world. Check the history of the French Revolution for example how liberals treated people if they weren’t as „liberal“ as them. The Guillotine is a powerful tool to persuade someone, right? And now we have the same people forcing other people to become like them.

Then stop going to the west if you cannot adapt to western culture. You can always stay in your Arabian/Islamic country, no one is forcing you to migrate.

Canada, USA and other European countries are not bringing in muslims just to see parts of their country being turned into mini Arabia. Secularism does not mean loss of culture. Would you tolerate if European women do not wear hijab in Saudi Arabia? So don't show me those lame excuses.

If you come to our country, we will enforce our will on you, simple as that.

 

[Old School]

Liberalism became obsolete long ago when liberalism had become a radical religion on it's own. A liberal Indian Muslim is neither a Muslim not an Indian. His/her stateless existence can only be found in the oblivion of reality.

 

[Buddhistforlife]

So more domesticated Muslims are needed in India, who are liberal (= totally indifferent towards Islam, only Arabic or Persian names)?

When the white masters demand liberalism we should become liberals, right? Don’t we - and this includes Hindus too - have an own culture, history, religion and codes of conduct? Why must we become copies of the West?

I don’t like liberals either, in the West they try to use minorities for political gain and some Muslims fall for it because they are so desperate that everybody who has a slightly positive attitude towards Islam becomes their super hero. Even though they promote things that are not only alien to Islam but also totally against it. Sorry we don’t Need the LGBTQGJGIPUYZ-People to be successful, we don’t need politicians to tell us that we are victims and need their protection. This mentality and state worship is the reason why some Muslims don’t prosper in the West!

Muslims need to grow a spine and stop this submissive behavior. Seriously.

PS: Liberalism is not a synonym for everything good in this world. Check the history of the French Revolution for example how liberals treated people if they weren’t as „liberal“ as them. The Guillotine is a powerful tool to persuade someone, right? And now we have the same people forcing other people to become like them.

There are millions of Hindus, Jews, Buddhists etc in Europe and America. Obviously we won't go against our faith but we don't demand extra rights in a foreign land.

When muslims enter Europe first thing you guys demand are halal food to be sold in the entire country, then loudspeaker in mosque when those countries even dont allow churches to ring bells. Then comes Shari'ah court, No go zones etc etc.

You must be grateful because minorities in muslim majority countries don't even get these things. You can always try to eat Pork in a muslim country and face consequences. Christmas has been banned and churches cannot ring bell.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

If you say so.

I understand you to be saying that the only salvation, the only way out for your community is an even better practice of your religion than has been done before.

If this seems to be a practical and feasible solution, good for you.

You took half of what I said. My original solutions are:

1. Education
2. Start moving away from victim mentality.
3. Learn religion properly.
4. Build good financial health.
5. Stop expecting from others.

 

[infinity73]

The hindu mind finally feels confident to fully express itself. Let it manifest itself, lets see what it has to offer.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You took half of what I said. My original solutions are:

1. Education
2. Start moving away from victim mentality.
3. Learn religion properly.
4. Build good financial health.
5. Stop expecting from others.

This, representing the whole, is an even more admirable programme than it was in its allegedly truncated form.

As long as you, and others believe that this is achievable in the present and in the future, and as long as you and others have taken stock of reasons why these "self-evident truths" were not followed earlier.

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

Of course!

Logical and natural.

'Tera kutta, kutta, mera kutta, Tommy.'

Do you consider Owaisi progressive Muslim?

 

[ps3linux]

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Dear @Joe Shearer sorry I was having my necessary down time after a tough few days. Before I start thinking more on the subject, I wanted to think what is the globally accepted definition of a liberal in context of Pakistan and India I will add my two cents from what I know please do add to those so that we can agree on something then compare definition of liberal for both countries:

Indian Liberal:

1. Patriotic Indian, doesn't like to comment against the country or its very geographical existence
2. Do not like to talk about re-division of country along religious/ethnic lines
3. Follow their religion just like any other hindu pooja/path/varat etc.
4. Tolerant of other religions/ethnicity
5. Religion is a personal matter and what others do/believe is their own
6. Embrace diversity of language/culture/food/religion and consider it a strength of India
7. They still have the temerity to call a spade a spade
8. They will call out for head of corrupt generals but highly appreciative of their armed forces in general

please add

Pakistani Liberal

1. Anti religion, they hate everything about religion ignorant of the teachings of religion and yet at the forefront to condemn anything they think could get them desired attention in the international media/NGO Mafia
2. Making every effort to weaken the unity thread of Pakistan, they want it divided along ethnicity again
3. Haven't seen any of them ever talking anything good about religion
4. They are tolerant rather appreciative of any other religion other than their own, they will celebrate Holi and yet mock both Eids.
5. Religion is a personal matter as long as the finger being pointed is at the Muslims
6. The do embrace diversity and culture as long as it is not from their own country
7. They are embodiment of hypocrisy
8. They want Pak armed forces to go extinct

Please do add anything here as well and we will continue our debate.

 

[jamahir]

Progressive Muslims are like Arif Mohammed Khan

Why ? Because he is from the BJP ?

Among various indicators of being a Progressive in India, did he or his party ever speak of eradicating honor killing ?

Umar Khalid and Shehla Rashid were involved in "Bharat tere tukde honge.. InshAllah gang".

That theory has been debunked. Please read this article's quoting to the end :

The nation wants to crow

The ‘Tukde Tukde Gang’ label owes its origins to Arnab Goswami and his ‘news’ channel, Republic. A lot of people seem to be unaware of this, despite the TRP numbers that suggest half the universe watches Republic World.

In January this year, Arnab Goswami decided to remind viewers of the golden moment of his journalism career, when he had taken on the likes of Kanhaiya Kumar and Umar Khalid two years ago.

In his excitement, he even got the date wrong. He said it was January 2016. In fact, it was February 2016. To be precise, 9 February 2016, the third anniversary of the hanging of Afzal Guru.

There are those who feel Afzal Guru had been unfairly charged and not given a last chance to save his life. Those who feel this way may be a handful of leftists in Delhi, and this position by no means endorses the Parliament attack of 2001 he was convicted for abetting. Neither does it amount to supporting Kashmiri separatism or Pakistani terrorist groups.

On 9 February 2016, some JNU students (former members of the Democratic Students Union or DSU) had organised a protest against the hanging of Afzal Guru. This protest was an annual affair, and the Akhil Bhartiya Vidyarthi Parishad, student wing of the RSS, was prepared to counter it in advance.

Since Afzal Guru was a Kashmiri, radical Kashmiri youth had reached the event, just like they land up at any Kashmir-related event in Delhi. Most of them were students, but they were not affiliated to JNU.

The Kashmiris and the ABVP activists provoked each other. The Kashmiris shouted pro-azadi slogans, and the ABPVP activists shouted slogans about Kashmir being an integral part of India.

Amongst the slogans the Kashmiri students shouted was perhaps one about India breaking into pieces — Bharat ke tukde. Eyewitness accounts said that the three organisers of the event — Khalid, Banojyotsna Lahiri and Aswathi — had tried to make the Kashmiri students stop with these slogans.

Fake news operation

The Delhi Police and some news TV cameras were present in advance, as the ABVP had decided to make an issue out of it. It wasn’t eyewitness accounts but videos that became proof of what had happened. The videos, that later turned out to be doctored, showed Khalid and JNU Students’ Union president Kanhaiya Kumar and others chant anti-India slogans demanding azadi for Kashmir and promising to break India into pieces.

Khalid and Kumar were arrested, but curiously, the Delhi Police, ABVP and news channels including Times Now, then led by Goswami, never asked about those Kashmiri students. The Kashmiri students were asked to lie low, because arresting them could have raised tensions in Kashmir. This would have adversely affected the BJP-PDP alliance in Jammu and Kashmir.

The “JNU nationalism row”, as it came to be known, was an out-and-out fake news operation with the joint collaboration of ABVP, news channels like Zee News and the Delhi Police, which picked up people on the basis of doctored videos.

The incident helped paint JNU in particular and left-liberals in general as anti-national. In the history of fake news in India, ‘Tukde Tukde Gang’ is the ultimate fake news.

All of this came out back then — Kanhaiya Kumar returned to JNU from jail to a hero’s welcome. The police has found no evidence against him. But two years later, Arnab Goswami has revived the fake controversy with ‘Tukde Tukde Gang’. That is the power of catchphrases and hashtags.

and those who are being killed in Kashmir just for holding Indian flag in their hands.

I have humbly written a decisive solution to the Kashmir issue in the forum's magazine section but you tell me, what is your opinion on the sufferings of the residents of Kashmir ? Should we ignore them ?

You can leave your comments in my thread in the magazine section.

Do you consider Owaisi progressive Muslim?

For me, Owaisi is a milder version of Raja Singh. He also doesn't take a principled stand. When that young woman activist, Amulya Leona, said on a Bangalore stage, a peace-making "Zindabad" to all South Asian countries, Owaisi refused to help her as she was forcibly taken away from the stage by unthinking organizers and the police.

@Joe Shearer

 

[jamahir]

Pakistani Liberal

1. Anti religion, they hate everything about religion ignorant of the teachings of religion and yet at the forefront to condemn anything they think could get them desired attention in the international media/NGO Mafia
2. Making every effort to weaken the unity thread of Pakistan, they want it divided along ethnicity again
3. Haven't seen any of them ever talking anything good about religion
4. They are tolerant rather appreciative of any other religion other than their own, they will celebrate Holi and yet mock both Eids.
5. Religion is a personal matter as long as the finger being pointed is at the Muslims
6. The do embrace diversity and culture as long as it is not from their own country
7. They are embodiment of hypocrisy
8. They want Pak armed forces to go extinct

Please do add anything here as well and we will continue our debate.

I wonder how you see Pakistani progressive elements like Faiz, Habib Jalib, the Laal music band ( their songs are taken from works of Faiz and Jalib. I have one of their songs ), Nadeem Paracha, Malala and Arooj Aurangzeb ( the leather jacket girl ).

About your point# 8, Faiz and his comrades were about to use the Pak armed forces to bring revolutionary change to Pakistan.

And as per my belief, the other elements I have mentioned were / are progressive in the old-fashioned sense, generally unconnected to "Liberals" as promoted by Western governments.

 

[ps3linux]

I wonder how you see Pakistani progressive elements like Faiz, Habib Jalib, the Laal music band ( their songs are taken from works of Faiz and Jalib. I have one of their songs ), Nadeem Paracha, Malala and Arooj Aurangzeb ( the leather jacket girl ).

About your point# 8, Faiz and his comrades were about to use the Pak armed forces to bring revolutionary change to Pakistan.

And as per my belief, the other elements I have mentioned were / are progressive in the old-fashioned sense, generally unconnected to "Liberals" as promoted by Western governments.

I will keep my response brief so that @Joe Shearer doesn't get motivated and start re-educating both of us by insulting in a way which looks like a praise.

Faiz, Jalib were influenced through their exposure and a hobby of reading extensive reading they had roots among the masses when they were alive and even today. I haven't heard laal so no comments there, Nadeem Paracha due to being English exclusive has the same problem as liberals not much following in the masses.

As for Malala I have mentioned many times my in laws are from KPK (they are muhammad zais) I know the history of yousaf zais and her as well so no comments except "a disgusting creature, darling of the west"

The so called liberals of today have no connection to masses all they have is a rent a 15 people rally for photoshoot.

Arooj and the younger generation are idealists when they see the unjustified distribution of wealth, power in the control of practical donkeys and find them helpless, unable to do anything in such circumstances socialism holds a lot of charm for them, in their charm they cross the red lines of religion, nationalism and few other isms.

Result is obvious they do get disconnected from the masses and as they are challenging the powers be its easier to maneuver their image as Anti State, anti whatever....

 

[jamahir]

As for Malala I have mentioned many times my in laws are from KPK (they are muhammad zais) I know the history of yousaf zais and her as well so no comments except "a disgusting creature, darling of the west"

I think you are unaware of the socialist side of her, quite a contrast to how Western governments project her. This is an article from 2013 about a socialist gathering in Pakistan :

Message from Malala

Comrade Javed Iqbal, a Pakistani comrade from Birmingham in the UK, intervened to read out a message that had been sent from Malala Yousafzai, the young sympathiser of the Marxist Tendency famous for her part in the struggle for the right to education for girls in Pakistan. She had taken part in the national Marxist Summer School in July of last year in Swat. She was tragically shot in the head in a barbaric attack by fundamentalists, and made headlines worldwide. She is now thankfully recovering in the UK.

The message she sent reads as follows:

“First of all I’d like to thank The Struggle and the IMT for giving me a chance to speak last year at their Summer Marxist School in Swat and also for introducing me to Marxism and Socialism. I just want to say that in terms of education, as well as other problems in Pakistan, it is high time that we did something to tackle them ourselves. It’s important to take the initiative. We cannot wait around for any one else to come and do it. Why are we waiting for someone else to come and fix things? Why aren’t we doing it ourselves?
“I would like to send my heartfelt greetings to the congress. I am convinced Socialism is the only answer and I urge all comrades to take this struggle to a victorious conclusion. Only this will free us from the chains of bigotry and exploitation.”

This was also one of the several moving moments of the congress. A close friend of Malala was also present at the congress, who was on the bus when the girls were attacked. She spoke, making some comments and reading out a poem. This young female comrade is an example of the calibre of comrades that belong to the IMT in Pakistan. In fact, throughout the congress comrades intervened from areas, where gang fighting, killings, bomb blasts, drone attacks, and generalised warfare is taking place. Listening to them makes one’s blood boil, as it graphically brings home the immense contradictions and injustices in this class ridden society.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

This, representing the whole, is an even more admirable programme than it was in its allegedly truncated form.

As long as you, and others believe that this is achievable in the present and in the future, and as long as you and others have taken stock of reasons why these "self-evident truths" were not followed earlier.

Yes it can be achieved but it was not because our people were keeping their eyes closed .

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dear @Joe Shearer sorry I was having my necessary down time after a tough few days. Before I start thinking more on the subject, I wanted to think what is the globally accepted definition of a liberal in context of Pakistan and India I will add my two cents from what I know please do add to those so that we can agree on something then compare definition of liberal for both countries:

Indian Liberal:

1. Patriotic Indian, doesn't like to comment against the country or its very geographical existence
2. Do not like to talk about re-division of country along religious/ethnic lines
3. Follow their religion just like any other hindu pooja/path/varat etc.
4. Tolerant of other religions/ethnicity
5. Religion is a personal matter and what others do/believe is their own
6. Embrace diversity of language/culture/food/religion and consider it a strength of India
7. They still have the temerity to call a spade a spade
8. They will call out for head of corrupt generals but highly appreciative of their armed forces in general

please add

Pakistani Liberal

1. Anti religion, they hate everything about religion ignorant of the teachings of religion and yet at the forefront to condemn anything they think could get them desired attention in the international media/NGO Mafia
2. Making every effort to weaken the unity thread of Pakistan, they want it divided along ethnicity again
3. Haven't seen any of them ever talking anything good about religion
4. They are tolerant rather appreciative of any other religion other than their own, they will celebrate Holi and yet mock both Eids.
5. Religion is a personal matter as long as the finger being pointed is at the Muslims
6. The do embrace diversity and culture as long as it is not from their own country
7. They are embodiment of hypocrisy
8. They want Pak armed forces to go extinct

Please do add anything here as well and we will continue our debate.

That is an extraordinary post, because I can identify with the profile of the Indian Liberal instantly!

On the other hand, I don't know enough about Pakistani Liberals to comment on the profile that you built about them. The ones I know don't all fit this profile; ones on this forum, for instance, are definitely NOT cast in that mould. In fairness, I can think of individuals beyond the forum who might fit into your profile for the Pakistani Liberal.

With that qualification, total agreement with your outline of the Indian Liberal, considerable hesitation and doubt regarding the Pakistani Liberal (who comes out of this profiling looking distinctly malcontent and seditious), I wish to tell you that you are very, very accurate about the Indian Liberal. All right, with my visualisation of that person.