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Indian Muslims and Liberals are trapped in a toxic relationship

That is an extraordinary post, because I can identify with the profile of the Indian Liberal instantly!

On the other hand, I don't know enough about Pakistani Liberals to comment on the profile that you built about them. The ones I know don't all fit this profile; ones on this forum, for instance, are definitely NOT cast in that mould. In fairness, I can think of individuals beyond the forum who might fit into your profile for the Pakistani Liberal.

With that qualification, total agreement with your outline of the Indian Liberal, considerable hesitation and doubt regarding the Pakistani Liberal (who comes out of this profiling looking distinctly malcontent and seditious), I wish to tell you that you are very, very accurate about the Indian Liberal. All right, with my visualisation of that person.

Those Pakistani liberals you come across here are not liberals in the true sense they are more like romantics, idealists, or people with high IQ who find themselves like caged animals they are at par with what I defined about Indian liberals.

You know parents wish that their child is gifted with higher intelligence, understanding of things people don't understand higher IQ/intelligence (particularly when it crosses 150) , understanding of things and when one is triple cursed with few such things there is no end to misery for such people they walk the path of self destruction very few find solace in scholarly work but at the cost of their social skills, that is the answer to your first line.
Its a gift and a curse. May be some other day more on it.
 
Yes it can be achieved but it was not because our people were keeping their eyes closed .

You know best, although your statement comes out sounding very ambiguous:

It can be achieved - fair statement.
....not because our people were keeping their eyes closed....

What do you mean?
'...our people...' (very strange wording) were (not) keeping their eyes closed
So they failed to do something with their eyes open?
 
Isn't this the same Muslim author, denounced by another self stamped Muslim liberal Rana Ayyub in her tweets?
@Joe Shearer The so called Muslim liberals even refuse to talk about issues plaguing the community and here we are talking of radicals and fundamentalist. 3T, NH for example are even tacitly supported by the so called M liberals and there was mum silence on Bangalore riots. Just days prior there was outage over Abuse of Lord Murugan in TN (not sure if you followed that news) and there was online peaceful protest and BR was enough for "Sanghis" to put Dravidian ideologists on the back foot.

Arif Mohammed or Najma or even beloved APJ were not even considered Muslim by fundamentals and they were not even openly challenged by so called liberals here.
 
You know best, although your statement comes out sounding very ambiguous:

It can be achieved - fair statement.
....not because our people were keeping their eyes closed....

What do you mean?
'...our people...' (very strange wording) were (not) keeping their eyes closed
So they failed to do something with their eyes open?
I said that they have not done enough to keep the muslims out of misery state that they are in.
 
Dear @Joe Shearer sorry I was having my necessary down time after a tough few days. Before I start thinking more on the subject, I wanted to think what is the globally accepted definition of a liberal in context of Pakistan and India I will add my two cents from what I know please do add to those so that we can agree on something then compare definition of liberal for both countries:

Indian Liberal:
  1. Patriotic Indian, doesn't like to comment against the country or its very geographical existence
  2. Do not like to talk about re-division of country along religious/ethnic lines
  3. Follow their religion just like any other hindu pooja/path/varat etc.
  4. Tolerant of other religions/ethnicity
  5. Religion is a personal matter and what others do/believe is their own
  6. Embrace diversity of language/culture/food/religion and consider it a strength of India
  7. They still have the temerity to call a spade a spade
  8. They will call out for head of corrupt generals but highly appreciative of their armed forces in general
please add

Pakistani Liberal
  1. Anti religion, they hate everything about religion ignorant of the teachings of religion and yet at the forefront to condemn anything they think could get them desired attention in the international media/NGO Mafia
  2. Making every effort to weaken the unity thread of Pakistan, they want it divided along ethnicity again
  3. Haven't seen any of them ever talking anything good about religion
  4. They are tolerant rather appreciative of any other religion other than their own, they will celebrate Holi and yet mock both Eids.
  5. Religion is a personal matter as long as the finger being pointed is at the Muslims
  6. The do embrace diversity and culture as long as it is not from their own country
  7. They are embodiment of hypocrisy
  8. They want Pak armed forces to go extinct
Please do add anything here as well and we will continue our debate.


On point regarding Pakistani liberals.

Regarding Indian liberals, I can say that you don't really know them and have a rosy view.

As much as we dislike the rightwinger Indians, it is not only RSS ideology which made them successful, but the duplicity and elitism of Indian liberals who used the rest of Indians for their games.

Nehru was the prime example of the mindset of the secular Indian liberal mindset. We are all suffering today due to his bad policies and doublespeak.

Also they had 73 years to work on getting rights for Dalits, Muslims, Sikhs, etc., but totally ignored them.

Quaid e Azam was 100% correct about them. Alhamdulilah for Pakistan.
 
strange bedfellows indeed.

a most fascinating global phenomenon, this alliance between these two, it's definitely not just in India.
 
strange bedfellows indeed.

a most fascinating global phenomenon, this alliance between these two, it's definitely not just in India.
So far it seems Indian Muslims are at odds with everyone. Nice narrative building against them
 
Hon Joe Shearer,

Asking me to comment on the article by Mr. Najmul Hoda on the plight of Indian Muslims is in my opinion a bit unfair. Mr. Hoda, in addition to being a very senior Police Officer, is also an erudite writer and a cultural anthropologist. I am neither a sociologist nor a scholar but an ordinary chemical engineer who is keen on history.

The article you have posted is incisive and was written by a person who has first-hand knowledge of the social & cultural environment currently prevailing in India. I only learn about it from the media. I am also an avowed liberal and Mr. Hoda has correctly stated “Muslims love Hindu liberals conditionally, and together they hate the microscopic Muslim liberals unconditionally”. This is also evident from the posts in this thread where the plight of the Indian Muslims has been largely ignored, instead the majority of the honorable member's posts focus on liberals. My observations on his article would therefore be of little interest to the readers; Indian Muslims as well as fellow Pakistanis.

In the post about Indian secularism, I had mentioned that in my opinion positive discrimination / Minorityism) included in the Indian Constitution had caused major resentment among the majority Hindu population, this article confirms it. but I would not call focus on the instances of “Acts of temple destruction, Jizya tax imposition, and forced conversions” during 600 years of the Muslim period instead of numerous instances of generosity such as grants of land to the Hindu places of worship by the infamous Aurangzeb as acts of indulgence or of mollycoddling. (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...rants-land-Historian/articleshow/48940506.cms). Mr. Hoda has deliberately used the word “ Minorityism” instead of the proper word ‘ Majoritarianism’ to avoid rubbing his bosses the wrong way.

Mr. Najmul Hoda’s remarks about Muslim society of the subcontinent are however correct. Conversions to Islam in Punjab & Sindh were primarily due to the influence of the Sufi’s and affected the high caste population as well. Per my experience, the caste differences in Pakistani Punjab only come to the surface when it comes to marriage. Most marriages in Punjab are within the braderi/clan, definitely a leftover of the Hindu culture. Otherwise, except for the very bottom stratum, that is the 'Musallis' & the ‘Chuhras’, caste discrimination is less evident. In the region of present-day India however, conversion to Islam was primarily restricted to the low strata of the population, who were either forced or converted to gain economic advantage. High caste Hindus remained largely untouched. The upper stratum of the Muslim population was therefore confined to the foreign origin people such as Pathans & the Mughals.

Mr. Hoda has hit the nail on the head when he declares that “It became conventional wisdom that Muslims didn’t need to introspect, reform or liberalise”. Allama Iqbal, while eulogizing the past glories of Isalm, also bemoans that Muslim science & cultural thought has been frozen in a time warp. Iqbal observed that no law or institution can be truly Islamic unless it imbibes the spirit of the dynamic outlook of the Quran. Islamic civilization, according to Allama Iqbal, had now lost this dynamic element. Iqbal argued about a strong need for “Ijtihad” (Reasoning / intellectual activity in finding the solution of a legal question ) instead of the blind ‘Taqlid that is, following the solution within the declaration of the Islamic Jurists of the early era. Closing the doors of Ijtihad in my opinion has been the biggest impediment for progress of the Islamic Science.

Books by the ancient Greek Scholars such as Plato & Socrates were translated into Arabic towards the end of the first century of Islam. Commanded by the holy Quran to seek knowledge and read nature for signs of the Creator, and inspired by a treasure trove of ancient Greek learning, Muslims created a society that until the Middle Ages was the in the forefront of the scientific world. By AD 217, Abbasside Caliph Al-Mamun had established ‘Baitul Hikma’ (House of Wisdom) in Baghdad.
The Arabic language became synonymous with learning and science for nearly 500 hundred years; a golden age that can count among its credits the precursors to modern universities, algebra, the names of the stars, and even the notion of science as an empirical inquiry. The West rediscovered Plato & Socrates through the Arabic translations of their books.

It appears that Muslim scholarship started to decline from the 10th Century and disappeared from the 13th Century onwards. Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy in his book " Islam and Science: Religious Orthodoxy and the Battle for Rationality” largely blames it on the decline of the rationalistic ‘Mu’tazlite school of thought & ascendancy of the orthodox ‘Asharite’ interpretation of Islam from the mid-9th century onwards.

Whatever the reason, the fact remains that out of 1.8-billion Muslims, thus far there have been only 3 Muslim Noble Laureates in the sciences. Ahmed Zewail (Egyptian 1999 – Chemistry), Aziz Sancar (Turkish 2015 – Chemistry) & Mohammed Younis, of Bangla Desh 2006-Economics. Prof Abdul Salam 1976 Physics Noble prize winner does not count because he
was a Qadiani.

On the other hand, 1.2-billion Hindus have produced 6 Nobel Prize winners. CV Raman, 1930- Physics, Amartya Sen 1968- Economics, Har Gobind Khorana 1983-Physics, Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar 1998-Physics, Venki Ramakrishnan 2009-Chemistry, and Abhijit Banerjee 2109-Economics. There must be something inherent in the Islamic society's DNA which is impeding the development of technological innovations.

In my opinion, the pre-independent Congress party was an inclusive Indian Nationalist Party. Its non-partisan nature is evident from the fact that many Parsis, as well as Muslims, were elected Congress Presidents. But none of its past leaders, except Anne Besant, who despite being English & wife of a clergyman was secular; were in fact secular. Adoption of secularism by the Indian National Congress was probably an effort to stem the tide of the Mulsim League's popularity among the Muslim population and to ensure the Harijan vote.

With an overwhelmingly Hindu majority, post-independent India was bound to gravitate towards majoritarianism sooner or later. Arguably, had the Muslim population of Sindh, NWFP (KPK), Punjab, and Bengal not voted for Pakistan in the referendum and remained within united India; the march towards majoritarianism would have probably been slower.

I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on Indian Liberals and what they need to do for their resurgence. In the era where populism is on the ascendency in most countries of the world, the future of liberalism does not appear too promising. For all practical purposes, the ‘Age of Enlightenment’ which started at the beginning of the 18th century is now past its ‘Sell-by’ date. However, if India were to change to the European ‘Proportional representation’ system instead of first past the post British system; liberals, as well as the minorities, would have a weightier say in India's future. But chances such a paradigm shift happening in the foreseeable future are ‘Zero’.

In the 1930s & the early 1940s, Indian Muslims had the choice to support Muslim League but since some prominent Muslims leaders such as Maulana Abul Kalam Azad & Maulana Hasan Madani were vehemently opposed to the Two-Nation Theory; the forefathers of the Muslims in present-day India decided to align themselves with the Congress Party and remain within India. Indian Mulsim destiny, therefore, lies with India, a fact that no outsider or any magic wand can alter. The only way out is through education, If this involves a tilt towards liberalism, they need to accept it.

Indian education standard is now quite high and Indian Muslims would have to struggle hard to gain entry into the prestigious Indian Universities. But nothing in life comes easy and in a purely democratic society, there is no place for ‘Quotas’ or any special treatment. Mr.Hoda is also very right when he talks about Aatmanirbhar (self-reliant) Musalman; self-reliance is the only way Indian Muslims can improve their lot.

In the meantime, if the Indian economy keeps on growing at close to 7% per year, in 4 to 5 years, the living conditions of every Indian, Muslim, or Harijan as well as their job opportunities would improve despite the discrimination.



 
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