Indian Muslims and Liberals are trapped in a toxic relationship

[Joe Shearer]

No matter what rather than depending on these so called "hindu" or " muslim" liberals muslims should just focus on themselves build a community set up to help each other and make their financial condition better to make their voice heard as well as keep a firm grip on religion.

An excellent prescription, but sadly, one that misses the entire point.

If it was as simple as that, why was the Muslim who was unwilling to depend on liberals of any religious persuasion sitting around for seventy two years? Is this isolation of Muslim and Dalit a recent phenomenon? Was it not always present?

Even without institutional racism, if focussing on themselves and building a community of self-help, and improvement of the general financial condition were good things, what stopped these from being done? Is it possible that this prescription is worse than the disease? Is it possible that circling the wagons, excluding the harsh, unrelenting real world, building on each other and improving financial conditions is actually an illusion?

Is this not a surrender to the obscurantist forces whose only enemy has been the Muslim liberal so far? Without them, or anybody else in the picture, in reality, is not the mullah the social leader for Muslims? Will the focus on themselves not become a godsend for the mullah, who will discover a role as the social mobiliser of the community?

The basic question is - if we reject the Muslim liberal, who will run the process that is described, and who will then exercise moral authority over the community.

Have we not seen enough examples of what happens when mental ghettos are formed?

 

[Joe Shearer]

The problem is that Muslims have invested in their own liberals, it just that their voice is being drowned out by their leadership composed mostly of conservatives and fundamentals, who are keen on holding on to their Muslim identity at the expense of Indian identity.

@Mad Scientist 2.0

Please read this passage above.

I believe that this is the essential problem, AFTER accepting that the infamy, the caste system, is a filter applied to bring some in, and keep the vast majority out.

 

[Joe Shearer]

India by and large an artificial state.

So is China, if we blank out culture completely, and concentrate on that easier target, exceptions to cultural identity, but that doesn't seem to hold anything back.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

Again, I have no violent objection to your objection. The deeper problem than religion is caste, but the Muslim doesn't figure directly in this, except as a surrogate for the Dalit to look down upon; THAT theoretical position is sometimes too absurd to stand the bright light of day.

Along with the deeper problem we need to ask ourselves what you have failed to do in your otherwise insightful response - what is it that the man (or woman) of good sense and a belief in human equality is supposed to do?

Human equity? Can you describe it a bit how it comes into picture? It would be good.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Human equity? Can you describe it a bit how it comes into picture? It would be good.

I don't know much about human equity, actually. So I tend not to talk about it.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

An excellent prescription, but sadly, one that misses the entire point.

If it was as simple as that, why was the Muslim who was unwilling to depend on liberals of any religious persuasion sitting around for seventy two years? Is this isolation of Muslim and Dalit a recent phenomenon? Was it not always present?

Even without institutional racism, if focussing on themselves and building a community of self-help, and improvement of the general financial condition were good things, what stopped these from being done? Is it possible that this prescription is worse than the disease? Is it possible that circling the wagons, excluding the harsh, unrelenting real world, building on each other and improving financial conditions is actually an illusion?

Is this not a surrender to the obscurantist forces whose only enemy has been the Muslim liberal so far? Without them, or anybody else in the picture, in reality, is not the mullah the social leader for Muslims? Will the focus on themselves not become a godsend for the mullah, who will discover a role as the social mobiliser of the community?

The basic question is - if we reject the Muslim liberal, who will run the process that is described, and who will then exercise moral authority over the community.

Have we not seen enough examples of what happens when mental ghettos are formed?

Beacause of false victim mentality and too much dwelving on the faith that the people of power will help them achieve that ,as well as lack of coherence and lack of faith towards a common cause and lack of faith in religion overall ( there is difference between outward religioucity and actually understanding the principles and apply it to everyday lives ) and last but not the least is that lack of apathy from the people who has wealth or influence.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

An excellent prescription, but sadly, one that misses the entire point.

If it was as simple as that, why was the Muslim who was unwilling to depend on liberals of any religious persuasion sitting around for seventy two years? Is this isolation of Muslim and Dalit a recent phenomenon? Was it not always present?

Even without institutional racism, if focussing on themselves and building a community of self-help, and improvement of the general financial condition were good things, what stopped these from being done? Is it possible that this prescription is worse than the disease? Is it possible that circling the wagons, excluding the harsh, unrelenting real world, building on each other and improving financial conditions is actually an illusion?

Is this not a surrender to the obscurantist forces whose only enemy has been the Muslim liberal so far? Without them, or anybody else in the picture, in reality, is not the mullah the social leader for Muslims? Will the focus on themselves not become a godsend for the mullah, who will discover a role as the social mobiliser of the community?

The basic question is - if we reject the Muslim liberal, who will run the process that is described, and who will then exercise moral authority over the community.

Have we not seen enough examples of what happens when mental ghettos are formed?

For a moral compass we don't need some self hating liberals who has deep problem with anything that is Islam. Quran is enough but the thing that is lacking in us is the strong belive in ourselves and lack of courage to take a step and lack of deep understanding of our religion.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

So

I don't know much about human equity, actually. So I tend not to talk about it.

Sorry mis typed . I wanted to ask what do you mean by human equality ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Beacause of false victim mentality and too much dwelving on the faith that the people of power will help them achieve that ,as well as lack of coherence and lack of faith towards a common cause and lack of faith in religion overall ( there is difference between outward religioucity and actually understanding the principles and apply it to everyday lives ) and last but not the least is that lack of apathy from the people who has wealth or influence.

That covers a broad spectrum, so to speak.

We are to believe that today, due to global warming or some other potent reason,

• False victim mentality will vanish
• Dependence on the political structure will likewise disappear
• There will be coherence (what does lack of coherence mean, in this context, or any other)
• More religion
• Even more religion
• The important will pay attention THIS TIME.

I genuinely respect your opinion, most of the time.

 

[Mad Scientist 2.0]

That covers a broad spectrum, so to speak.

We are to believe that today, due to global warming or some other potent reason,

• False victim mentality will vanish
• Dependence on the political structure will likewise disappear
• There will be coherence (what does lack of coherence mean, in this context, or any other)
• More religion
• Even more religion
• The important will pay attention THIS TIME.

I genuinely respect your opinion, most of the time.

Strive for lack of common goal to make muslims as a community prosper as well as keep their identity and culture intact .

 

[fatman17]

A retired captain l ran into some years back, and we were discussing how pakistans ethnic groups are integrated into the military so smoothly (generally ) and why Pakistan as a whole and pakistanis find it difficult to mesh together as a nation state (except of course in times of crisis ).His reply was short and sweet " we are not a people, we are tribes " and therein lies our problem.

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

Muslim is a liberal first, Indian later

I take it as sarcasm.

 

[El Sidd]

I take it as sarcasm.

there is no such thing as free will

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

@Joe Shearer, though the writer seems to lean a bit towards the majority right ( "Atmanirbhar Bharat" ) I agree with his points.

I will recall that Keralite professor whose hand was chopped off by Muslim right-wingers ten years ago, more precisely by the PFI group ( which BTW is the parent organization of the SDPI party responsible for the recent Bangalore riots ). The PFI did this act because the professor alleged did "huzoor ke shaan me ghustakhi". The Kerala government, led by the communists, failed to take action against this right-wing group. The proper action would have been to ban PFI and SDPI.

Then there is the placement of the word "Liberal" which would be to the left of center or in the case of the Congress party, SP, BSP etc, in the center. These Centrist parties all these decades kow-towed to the regressive, right-wing elements among the Muslims for the sake of maintaining a secure vote bank.

Unlike Eastern progressive countries like Iraq, Syria and Libya, the Indian Constitution certainly spoke of Secularism and Progressivism but did not make them defining elements of society. Therefore for four decades an uncertain Secularism and tattered Progresssivism carried on in India until the Ram Janmabhoomi movement in the 1980s. Many of the middle-class Hindus who were not invested in thinking of bringing India to a progressive governance, combined with uncaring elements among Muslims who lived in ghettos and became the face of the Indian Muslim, combined to the eventual bringing to power of the BJP at national level. The Communist Party of India had eight founders and four of them were Muslims. This was in 1920. For some decades, some intellectual Muslims were the face of Islam in India until fiascos like the Shah Bano case brought dormant Muslim right-wingers to influential prominence. For example, the Tablighi Jamaat has been quite prominent for the last 15 years.

It is certainly a failure of Indian Muslim intellectuals that unlike their counterparts in Afghanistan and Pakistan they didn't try to get themselves into governance position. And it is failure that the progressive movements in India failed to put Muslims as their faces to counter the regressives among the Indian Muslims. But I am hopeful for the near-future because of young Indian Muslim progressives like Shehla Rashid and Umar Khalid. It is also nice that the veteran Kashmiri communist leader, M.Y.Tarigami still has a support base in Kashmir.

You were about to earn positive rating from my side, but you tagged Shehla Rashid and Umar Khalid as progressive Muslims, I put my finger down.
Umar Khalid and Shehla Rashid were involved in "Bharat tere tukde honge.. InshAllah gang". They just want to popular by hook and crook to make their political career.
Progressive Muslims are like Arif Mohammed Khan, Shezaad Poonawala, Yana Mir, and those who are being killed in Kashmir just for holding Indian flag in their hands.

 

[Joe Shearer]

For a moral compass we don't need some self hating liberals who has deep problem with anything that is Islam. Quran is enough but the thing that is lacking in us is the strong belive in ourselves and lack of courage to take a step and lack of deep understanding of our religion.

If you say so.

I understand you to be saying that the only salvation, the only way out for your community is an even better practice of your religion than has been done before.

If this seems to be a practical and feasible solution, good for you.